Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Dear New Heart,

The seed analogy seems reasonable and still similiar to JW teaching. We also know that we are just speculating, right?

Thank you for starting a new thread. I'm sorry if you have to deal with armed Christians ready to battle for their faith and personal convictions. Then again, you would be in good company because all good Christians go through a refining process. So I'll pray that we all deal with the discussion with Christian meekness (Jehovah and Jesus know that I need all the 'calm me down" before I take up the sword, as They will give me. I think that I have cut people's ear off-like Peter-in previous conversations. I feel sad about it.) I appreciate the post writers who have wonderful tact and beautiful encouragement. The individuals that can do that have posts that gleam like jewels. Ahh, so pretty. Sometimes, I even feel a little jealous. It only lasts for a moment and then I feel appreciation, again.

With Christian Love, Debbie

You must mean New Truth

Hi Debbie,

TBS is that Trinity Broadcasting organisation – should I have said TBN, I wonder? I’m not sure at all now. It’s the religious channel where all the preachers shout at you.

Sometimes I think of the controversy room as a kind of AntiVirus program for forums. A scan is done, and dangerous files go into the quarantine folder. Then admin have the options of ignore, fix or delete. That doesn’t give enough credit to the person or persons who came up with the idea, though, because it was a novel method of allowing some people to push the envelope and others to be protected from radical ideas at the same time.

I realise that you are not trying to start a controversy. I just started this thread thinking it a very mainstream topic and I was genuinely surprised when you told me it was VERY controversial. Of course, I was well in the thick of the conversation at that point and never gave it a thought to anything but the topic itself. I guess it can’t be too bad overall; usually all hell breaks loose, with phone calls and PMs flying everywhere until the problem is resolved.

I don’t know much about Born Agains. When we met them on the ministry in Ireland, the characteristic feature was aggression. They always spoke of ‘having Jesus in your heart’, and at that time I never could relate to that thinking. We JWs seemed to be the ones talking a lot about prophesy; they stuck to more emotional topics. I would not have a clue as to what they might think about the manner of Jesus’ second coming.

Regards,
Brendan.

Debbie,

I've just realised it was Apryl asked about TBS - sorry.

Brendan.

Hi Apryl,

I guess the TBS question is covered :( .

Are you wondering if Hades might be the term given to describe the place where the spirits of the dead are kept on hold, rather than just ‘the common grave of mankind’? I got the impression from the term ‘memorial tombs’ that the Jews thought God would remember their actual bodies at resurrection time, and the tombstone was to point Him in the right direction. We would have to wonder why, considering that body is gone and not coming back. Perhaps it was a tradition more than an act based on any real understanding of the resurrection process.

I don’t know how you’re feeling about this topic, if it has been beaten to death or not, but let me know if you get weary of it. It’s just that while I was surfing around, I came across an interesting discussion on Matthew 7:13, 14. It is on the TouchStone forum and has a lot of posts from Wrench, who I’m pretty sure is an active JW. The gist of it is the problem of harmonising these verses with Acts 24:15.At the start of this thread, we discussed how to try to harmonise John 5:28,29 with Acts 24:15.

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matthew 7:13,14

having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. Act 24:15

Wrench reckons that the road that leads to destruction is a long road that starts in this life but goes on through the second resurrection. He says a person can turn around at any stage and repent. He acknowledges, though, that a person chooses a gate first, because the scripture tells us that a gate leads off to eternal life or destruction, rather than we walking a long road and then going through a gate at the end that leads to life or destruction.

The comments from the other posters are very interesting and if you think you might like to read them, they are here:

http://www.touchstoneforum.com/forum/yaf...71314.aspx

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Apryl,

My trouble is, how can the idea of a judgement based on activity in this world be harmonised with a judgement that may come well into the new system? Wrench reckoned that many would go off into destruction, but only in this system. Is there not a loss of importance and imperative to Jesus’ words, requiring people to choose the proper gate right away and stick to the path it led to? And one poster wrote, what does it mean when Jesus says ‘few will find that way to life’? Can we reduce Jesus’ use of the word ‘life’ to life in this system only? But we all know this life leads to destruction in death. The second resurrection and Millennial Reign beliefs claim that billions will receive eternal life, not just few, as Jesus said.

I wasn’t certain what you were saying about the memorial tombs. My thinking was that the gravestone announced, by its presence, “Here I am, come and get me”. With the cenotaph translation, it seems to say “Please find me where I am now”. It seems at odds with a general grave with the stone above it. So I’m not sure now how to harmonise John 5:28 with the cenotaph.

I wonder are we back dealing again with the possible pointlessness of becoming a Christian in this system, looked at from a mercenary point of view?

Something else cropped up as well to make me wonder about the future resurrection. It comes from the TouchStone discussion too. I think we have usually understood the dead anointed ones rising to meet Jesus in the air as the first resurrection. We usually accept that the living anointed will join them at the same time and together, they make up the first resurrection. This happens at the end of the great tribulation, before the end of the system of things. While we are trying to support one resurrection which includes the anointed and the un-anointed good and bad, what do we make of Revelation 20?

Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sits on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence and were seen no more. And I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened, and then another book was opened, the book of the living. The dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead. Death and the world of the dead also gave up the dead they held. And all were judged according to what they had done. Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.) Those who did not have their name written in the book of the living were thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

There is a lot going on here. The first thing that struck me is the dead were judged according to what they had done and not what they had believed. Why would the dead from the sea, whatever that is in this case, be raised after another group of dead people who I know nothing about? Several books are opened, and only one is the book of the living. I wonder what the other books are – all books of the dead perhaps, meaning many more people are condemned than saved.

Unfortunately, that’s only the beginning of the questions. The verses before this talk about Satan being released from his prison and people on the earth defying the Kingdom at the end of the 1000 years. They attack God’s people but are destroyed. Satan is removed permanently and then the Great White Throne Judgement starts!

Ignoring all the unknowns for the moment, can it be said that there is a second resurrection lurking in there somewhere? As for all the other questions, there are so many they can just be rhetorical if you like.

I am sorry you feel there is meaning missing in your life! I home-schooled my youngest boy for the last two years and now feel a bit lost because he has gone back to regular school. My wife is very supportive of the things I do at home and never allows me to feel devalued. My teenage sons, as you can imagine, go straight for the jugular – they are merciless, they want the money! I sure hope your husband is supportive too. But we are brainwashed into thinking we must be doing something conventional, and can be very hard on ourselves. I am surprised by your wish to become involved in politics, but you’ve surprised me so many times I’m becoming immune! True enough, the health care system in the welfare state is very good. It is starting to suffer from a lack of resources and funding, and Irish people do complain about it lately, but I remember living in America where nothing comes free and I appreciate the amount of quality care a person can get here as a right.

Regards,
Brendan.

Dear Brendon,

When Jesus was on earth he associated with the scum of the earth. Based upon his choice of fellowship and preaching of mercy, we HAVE to come to the conclusion that we will not be able to judge worthiness according to our imperfect standards.
Also, we cannot read the hearts to know what Jehovah is looking for. Salvation itself is based on Jehovah's law, not on manmade speculations. We know right and wrong, many are forced to do wrong being of the onslaught of demonic activity.
I think thats where many go wrong in their harsh judgements. The Devil DOES have a major impact in our choices.
You know what I think? I think Jehovah chooses the biggest sinners with the most broken heart. Do you know why? Because noone else should judge other sinners except someone who has been there. JW's teach that the older members who live an exemplarary life will be chosen. How can a overly righteous person judge sinners? They will say that the sinner could have made better choices and condemn them. But a true sinner with a huge bundle of sins will look past the action of sin to see the persons heart, now thats true judgement! Nothing like our world can have, compassion, mercy, forgiveness in the truest sense.
Salvation? I believe that the scum of the earth itself will be as merciful as possible, aren't they also the judge of mankind, beside Jesus?
We cannot have a spirit of tolerance toward wrong doing in order for righteousness to be prevalent. Also, we cannot assume that righteous people are only accepted. Jesus was clear that he came for the sinners.
You, me, and everyone else cannot determine what the boundaries of salvation are. As for me, I would have written myself off years ago, but Jesus didn't. So here I am, bearing witness to his great mercy and kindness.

With Love to you and yours, Debbie

Hi Debbie,

I honestly think the notion of Jesus always associating with sinners and outcasts is overdone. There is no doubt that He came to save sinners and found them often more open to His teachings than the ‘righteous’. People say He always associated with sinners, which is not really true. They also say that there was nothing but bad feeling between Him and the Pharisees, and that’s not true either.

Here is a point about judging. When Jesus said do not judge, it certainly seems on the face of it that He meant only what He said and no more. But then we read

John 7:24 Stop judging by external standards, and judge by true standards."

Luke 6:42 How can you say to your brother, 'Please, brother, let me take that speck out of your eye,' yet cannot even see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

If I’m reading these correctly, we can judge, trying hard to judge by righteous standards. But how would this fit in with the discussion?

Posters, in the knowledge that we know so very little, often recommend that we can trust God to explain everything to us in His own good time and He will also do everything in a righteous way. Their valid point is why worry or speculate, when we humans look at life and values through very imperfect lenses. The only reply I can make to this conclusion is why bother to have a discussion board at all? Let’s just wait. Or perhaps we might eliminate the more speculative conversations and stick to widening out our knowledge on less speculative topics.

In other words, we have little real knowledge of the nature of God’s mercy. We are trying, in this conversation, to understand the balance between justice and mercy, but who really knows the mind of God? We can only speculate. We don’t need to speculate a lot about our imperfect balance of these qualities. So perhaps we might confine ourselves to what we know.
.
I know very little about the basis for judgement. That is why I started the thread. But it certainly was not to tell people how God will judge. Perhaps the speculations came across as statements of fact. If so, I’m sorry about that.

A broken heart seems to very acceptable to Jehovah. I’m sure there is a scripture somewhere that even says that very plainly. But surely the reason God loves a broken heart is because it is an opportunity to turn around a way of life? Jesus loved sinners, but He usually concluded conversation with them by saying “Go, and sin no more”. I’m assuming He didn’t mean perfection!

I don’t think you need to worry at all about a righteous judgement for sinners. Jesus himself went through it and became an ideal judge for reason of that, despite coming through it all as righteous as can be. His brothers and sisters go through that same baptism of death in this world, and if they were over-righteous, they would actually be self-righteous. But I think a person being very righteous is a good thing because they can deliver righteous judgements.

One last point: you are absolutely right when you say no person can determine what the boundaries of salvation are. But can we not chat and try to get more understanding of what those boundaries might be?

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Apryl,

I can’t reconcile the scriptures that talk of how hard it is to get into the kingdom of the heavens, and how one must choose the right way and doggedly stick to it, and so many other scriptures like these, with the idea that I have held for so long – that there will be a second chance and billions, if not almost everyone will find salvation. It is as if the truth of the matter lies somewhere between two extremes: Calvin’s tiny predestined elite and universal salvation.

I am not sure God made man to live 1000 years. I thought He made them to live forever, but sin ruined that and the best an imperfect body could last was 1000 years. If most men are tested in the Millennial Reign, they may well get that long period to repent and grow spiritually. If their judgement period is 70 years or so, the time to act is now! I see this desperate need to act fast and seriously in Jesus’ words at Matthew 7:13, 14. Compared to 1000 years, what can the average person do in less than 100; what is the point of this short life?

What do you think God’s original plan for man was, in regard to where he would live forever?

I was thinking that a mercenary view of faith would only see it in business terms – cost/benefit. How much can I get out of this and how little can I put in to get it? I realise that the mercenary attitude and the spirit of faith are incompatible, but it seems that some Christians are on record in scripture for thinking this way. So why would a mercenary mind choose the narrow gate and the cramped path when an easier way waits in the new system?

When to judge and how to judge, those are the questions! Maybe the bases for salvation are different, then, with deeds as the criteria for those who could never show faith in Christ, and faith for those who could. Perhaps you are right about limiting faith to the first century only; that would mean that we Christians today would also be judged by deeds, because our faith is based on faulty doctrine.

The next criteria for judgement, in the end times, might be the acceptance or rejection of the mark of the beast. Is it a microchip, or just symbolic of complete support and co-operation with false worship? Perhaps the human race ends up in a situation where they are forced who to choose – the antichrist or the sons of God? We concluded that they would never know whether they had supported the sons of God or not until Jesus told them later. Maybe they just decide between the antichrist and an unrecognised crowd of upstarts who are going against the flow. It would take a brave heart to support a hated minority.

What you say about people accepting Christ in a modern setting would seem more likely to me in the new system. I think of Armageddon as a time of huge judgement, not the time of test when Satan is released from the abyss after the 1000 years and leads the nations against God’s kingdom. This is mere speculation; I always feel I’m drowning in Revelation.

Aaaaargh! Could the spirits of the dead be alive in Sheol/Hades? Go straight to the Controversy Room, do not pass go, do not collect $200! Or is it more these days?

I lived in Seattle with my wife for a few years in the 90s. She comes from there. We are back in Ireland close on 10 years now.

There is NOTHING infuriated me more then putting a lot of effort into a post and losing it. I will only write posts in Word now. Anyone I write to gets a file and I update the file with new posts from them and then reply on it and save it. It is a bit time-consuming but saves me that awful frustration. Thanks for writing it again.

Regards,
Brendan.

Hi Apryl,

We covered so much ground and came back to the starting point no wiser about the topic than we started! I hope it is a comfort for anyone who was unsettled by the subject that no new radical understanding of scripture came out of the discussion. Nonetheless, it was a very enjoyable look into scripture, twisting and turning along the way, and I learned a lot from it. It isn’t always a matter of finding answers; finding new questions is invaluable too.

About the idea of the spirits of the dead in Hades; I was so preoccupied with the Monopoly joke yesterday that I forgot to say anything about it. All I know apart from the WS interpretation, is the idea put forward as a possibility nothing more (from a poster on Channel C) that Jesus was speaking to His audience in terms that they would understand, and at the time they had superstitious or Platonic beliefs about the afterlife.

I have trouble understanding your idea of inherited sin not being passed along through the blood from one imperfect vessel to another. I am convinced that the idea of the ransom as a corresponding ransom for the sin of Adam is right, and as Adam became father to imperfect men, Christ would give birth to perfect spiritual offspring. Am I right to compare physical and spiritual offspring, or is like comparing apples with oranges?

I read Psalm 37 in full to get the context, because I wasn’t sure what you were getting at. Are you saying that the WS makes way too much of that verse, and that it should be understood in a simpler, more immediate way – that good things will come to good people in the here and now?

I read Isaiah 65:20 and I can’t see in it what you see. I see the possibility of eternal life in this scripture too.

Someone wrote recently of the condition of recreated human beings in the new world. They reckoned they would be blessed with tangible bodies that could nonetheless defy the laws that constrain us at the moment, and they ventured a guess that the phenomenal versatility of these new creatures may be the reason for the great envy on the part of the demons. I love this idea because it suits my imagination; but I couldn’t be sure, of course.

I agree with you completely about the mercenary view not working in the realm of faith. And also about the mark! I’ll make a mental note of Revelation 3:10. I’m just not sure a scripture aimed squarely at the anointed also includes the wicked human masses.

Rhonda came to Ireland to pioneer. Do you remember the slogan – go where the need is greater? I was a single brother at the time and used to visit another brother in rural Ireland who had a family. These visits made a lonely life a bit more fun. I was blessed to meet Rhonda at a service meeting one day and before long we were married.

I did not know TouchStone was locked. They may have regretted advertising the discussion on Bible chronology. They are a JW group who don’t want detractors on the forum. Perhaps some known ‘dodgy’ folk were trying to register - at least 'dodgy' in their eyes!

Regards,
Brendan.


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