Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Greetings fellow slaves!! :clap:


Hows it going mates? :hug:


I had a funny (strange) thought, while briefly reading a scripture and pondering upon another.

"Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” -- Matthew 4:8-9

Here Satan has Jesus up on a high mountain and attempts to tempt Jesus with "all the Kingdoms of the world".

Taking this scripture at face value, we could say Satan "owns" or has control over the Kingdoms of the world. This can be substantiated in other verses in scripture, though not all are direct in their nuances.

The other scripture that "got me", was here >

‘ This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
In order that the living may know
That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.’ -- Daniel 4:17

Daniel 4:17 states that "the Most High rules in the Kingdom of men, gives it to whomever He will".

If the Most High rules in the Kingdom of men, and He gives it to whomever He wants -- then how is it that Satan was able to offer up "the Kingdoms of the world" to Jesus, IF they werent Satans in the first place? In other words,

Was Satan lying by offering Kingdoms that were not his? Isnt it the Most High who "gives it to whomever He will"?

Or are these thoughts founded on convoluted balony? :D

Your thoughts? :thumbsup:





May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:

hey beau :hug: ''convoluted baloney?'' I may be more familiar with that than I realized :) ..do I think the devil was 'lying'?--umm--no. I believe than no one was lying but that ultimately it All belongs to God and that for Now He is allowing things to play out the way they are. :love: It reminds me of that old joke where the guy says ''I'm the boss in my family--and my wife lets me.'' In due time it will all be just as it is supposed to be..... :heartbeat:

Hi Beau and Wolfie,
Interesting!

And Paul also says the god of this system has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.

A paradox; explicable when we think in terms of YHWH's overall purpose for planet Earth coming to completion in his due time.
Completed irrespective of the 'temporary power' mans superior authorities, controlled by satan, may have under the permitting or restricting hand of YHWH and his Son. (Ps 2)
blessings
Derek

Yo Beau :hibye:

Interesting idea for sure, although the scriptures make it clear that Satan is a big fibber, Revelation is pretty specific about Satan being the ruler of this world.

Revelation 13:2
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Agape Johnny :heartbeat:

Quick thought Bro..

"Kingdom of the world" and "world that is in the power of the wicked one" Seem to be a fairly acurate statement.

While Men are ruled by God the kingdom we live in is not.
People chose to go against their God given internal warning system.
we tend to fall for the desire of the eye's and things that make us look good in front of other men.

We pick a side getting to see that the Kingdom of this world stinks, while we have our heart set on God's kingdom "which is righteous" we live in this world which is under Satans domain.

I think the question might be phrased are we handed over to be ruled by Satan at times from God's authority.? So if we chose to not listen to wisdom we are not only ruled by this current Kingdom but are an integral part of it's darkness. Otherwise we are as aliens in a forgein land.

the beasts rise from both the land and sea. they are usually depicting mankind. and they denote people it seems. the land and sea are God's by all rights yet he allows the beasts to come forth from them.
God warns us to seek wisdom not of this world to escape being part of it and it's kingdoms.

hope it is some help
peace

Hi Beau

I think this scripture sheds a little more light on it...

Rev 11:17 We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In the Interlinear, the last word of verse 17 is "and-you-reign", so I think "you have begun reigning" is a little bit better rendering...

The Kingdom already reigns over those of us who recognize it, and separate ourselves from the "world"....but clearly here at the end, the Kingdom had been given authority, by the decree of those watchers, and the principalities in the heavenly places are put into an upheaval....they are all thrown down to earth....and then the nations became angry, because they have come down here to wreak havoc. The long wait in between is all part of the "legal case", which, in the end, will vindicate God and His righteous judgments completely...

Great question, as usual :thumbup:

:heartbeat:
Jesh

Hey Wolfie!! :clap:


Hows it going buddy? :hug:

I think anyone who has had dealings with the Watchtower are more familiar with "convoluted baloney" than they realise! ;)

Reminds me of part of the conversation I had with my father today. Called him up, chatted and then thought I would broach the subject of "end-times" thoughts, especially since I imagine most JWs dont get a chance to speculate on things. I asked him what he thought about whats going on in the world, and he mentioned that he just watchted a speech by Barack Obama, and was concerned about him speaking of uniting Christianity and Muslim, and other things - and dad thought it could be leading up to the cry of peace and security. Plausible....maybe?

Cracked me up anyway. I couldnt help but feel that the Watchtower had something to do with his reply. Not that I have anything against Barack Obama -- he certainly has to be better than GW-Bushwacka.....and Mcain! :shocked:

You mean you dont believe the devil was lying??? ;)

Just kidding! Although, I do have some other thoughts about the subject, although, they arent to try to form another doctrine or anything, more like just for mind-expansion! Ya know...:thumbsup:


To all others, I will reply to this thread in a few days, as my mother is over from New Zealand, so I will be catching up with her for the weekend! Thank you for everyones replies!! Great thoughts!

Noice work mates! Have a cracker of a day! :funnyface:







May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:

This American politics thing confuses me.

Barack Obama bin Laden is running for the election, right?
Now they think he will win; this well in advance?
He must be a friend of Bush senior
The rigger.

[The Bushes seem good at rigging things. They are after all distant cousins]

What if they are all expressions of satan's camp and are not running against each other, but running side by side along their own paths, with the big SSSS...snakey serpent, out in front? Behind the scenes, under the co-operation designed by satan, maybe they are all going in one direction.


vickster

Sorry, but I think the current political leaders, with their 'healthy' diversification are just satan's window dressing.
Many are led to believe they have a choice, and so vote, but that choice is as useful as being handed the menu, in the dining car of a runaway train.

Hi Vicky :friends: Not a friend of the Bush's--playing for the Other team..... :heartbeat:

ps--he is very chrismatic (no matter what I do the spelling on this word looks wrong--werng--) and has managed to combine an evangelical spirit with a rock star somehow...not sure about winning the election --I remain pretty dumb as to how those things will go down.....

To the author of this thread, I respectfully add my :2cents:

Dear Beau,

You asked, "Was Satan lying by offering Kingdoms that were not his?"

Luke's account actually qualifies the Devil's tempting offer by adding, "and the Devil said to him: 'I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.'" (Luke 4:6)

On later occasions Jesus acknowledges the same when he said, "Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (John 12:31)

"I shall not speak much with you anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me." (John 14:30)

"then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged." (John 16:11)

John himself later concludes by inspiration, "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one." (1 John 5:19)

Just thought these scriptures would help.

:heartbeat:sw

This is my take at the moment on the seeming scriptural contradiction (but as usual I may be wrong).

The scripture in Daniel seems to be prophetic.

It seems to be saying that in the final analysis Jehovah is in charge, not satan.
Jah, the most high is the ruler and He will, by seeming contrast, set up the most lowly one to rule.

Jah used the scenario of Nebuchadnezzar to illustrate His power. Jesus is the most lowly one of mankind, so when Jehovah decides the time is right satans sham house of cards will be removed. Satan has been allowed to do his stuff at the moment, and is in charge, but at the time determined by Jehovah, satan's power base will be removed, just as surely as the prominent kingdom of Babylon lost its ruler, when Jehovah decreed it.

Neb. is like satan......."Is this not Babylon the Great that, that I have built......for the dignity of my majesty?" Dan 4:29

Satan thinks in the same way.
Satan has built his Babylon the Great, and yet in an instant, when he is over confident, it will be pitched into the sea, by the decree of Jehovah. An angel will pitch that millstone into the sea, and because it is an enormous millstone it will disappear in seconds.

I wonder if in early days the expression of having of a millstone round your neck existed? Satan's system certainly contrasts with Jesus' 'my yolk is kindly and my load is light'. (A carpenters wooden yolk would float if you had that round your neck).

If something is weighing us down, so we can hardly move, we can be certain it is part of satans system, be it financial, health, whatever worries.

So final analysis....satan is in charge, and allowed to be, just as Neb. was in charge of God's people the Israelites, but at Jehovah's decree the lowliest one of mankind will take over. And the fall of satan's empire will happen as suddenly as the turning of Neb into an animal or the overthrow of his empire when Cyrus arrives.

vicky

:heartbeat:
Dear Brother digital_punk Hello
Don’t write down dishearten.
We found a way.

Jeremiah 8:11 And they try to heal the breakdown
of the daughter of my people lightly, saying:
“There is peace! There is peace!”
when there is
no peace.
== == == == == == ==
That the Lord Jehovah Should Come As One of Us.

Mark 4:41 But they felt an
unusual fear,
and they would say to one another:
“Who really is this,
because even the wind and the sea obey him?”
Live the Kingdom
Amen in faith
Cc
Mark 4:8 But others fell upon the fine soil, and, coming up and increasing,
they began to yield fruit,
and they were bearing thirtyfold,
and sixty and a hundred.”
9 So he added the word:
“Let him that has ears to listen listen.”

Hi Beau. Fascinating question you pose in this thread.


I think the problem is the black and white thinking us XJW and current JW have been programmed with. Mind you it is not just JW Christians but Christians of every stripe. The question you pose builds from the assumption that Satan is Satan and God is God. They are totally opposed and enemies. From the JW point of view this idea is even worse because God and Satan and his kingdoms and Gods kingdom have in the recent past undergone an immense change. The good old 1914 dogma show! Satan is Satan and God is God and never the twain shall meet.


Of course though they do meet! They met in Jobs time, and it’s not too much of a stretch to think that they met again when God gave the kingdoms of the world to Satan. We don’t know when this was but at a guess it may have had something to do with Israel being under Rome’s control. However how and when this happened doesn’t really matter. We know that Jesus said Pilate’s power over Jesus was from above. Heaven itself gave Jesus into Rome’s control.


Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him: "You would have no authority at all against me unless it had been granted to you from above. This is why the man that handed me over to you has greater sin."


Satan was the one who killed Jesus. Jesus allowed this to happen. Satan was ruling from heaven as was Jehovah. It would be silly to think that Satan was literally and in a fleshly way on the earth and just went in for the kill as Jehovah gave Rome his authority to kill Jesus. It’s more logical to think that the spirit realm where spirits live is heaven. So any spiritual control is a form of rule over mankind. Control over either all or part. It’s a logical deduction that Satan rules from heaven as Jesus does over their respective kingdoms. If it wasn’t for the 1914 dogma we could easily conclude the same is true now. This idea sounds like a heresy but it isn’t really. It is just a logical thought with some merit. It may be true and it may not be. Dogmatism is the enemy when we don’t have a clear mirror image of the truth yet.


Pro 27:11 Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me.


Psalm 27 suggests that Satan taunts Jehovah and Jesus is heaven, over what? It is probably over the same things as in Jobs time. God’s faith and love in his creation of humans.


Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!


In Revelation there is a similar scripture. Here though Satan is already thrown down to the earth. Yet he is still apparently before God. They defeat Satan by not loving themselves but even to the point of death as Jesus had done before them, as they do this in the blood of the lamb.


So if Satan is not literally cast to the earth in what way was he? He is cast to the earth in that he no longer has complete power over them. 1914 seems completely off the mark now of course.


Jesus was the first stone of the kingdom building. Its corner stone indeed! As literally the first building stone of Gods kingdom on the earth Satan had no power over him.


Joh 14:30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,


Jesus was being crafted, refined and perfected while on earth to be laid in place after his death and the first fruit or perhaps first brick.


Heb 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;
Heb 5:9 and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,


Satan wasn’t lying when he said that he had all the kingdoms of the world. The same is true now in some ways. Works of the flesh are in every kingdom today as they were back then. However now the Holy spirit is available for the works of spirit.


The difference though is that it could be that Satan was cast to the earth as Jesus went back up to heaven, symbolically in Satan’s case. Even Jesus probably didn’t go to the spirit realm in a physical form after the cloud caught him from the witness’s sight. In a way Jesus going up was for illustrative purposes as Satan said to be cast to earth was perhaps illustrative of defeat as in symbolic death. This idea is not unfamiliar to the ancients. High and worthy things go up and low and unworthy things go down:


Pro 15:24 The path of life is upward to one acting with insight, in order to turn away from She'ol down below.


Ecc 3:21 Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?


Satan’s rule had its first defeat with Christ’s victory on the cross. As Jesus was literally the first real manifestation of the kingdom when on earth and gave some of his kingdom authority to his disciples to cast out spirits and demons he could say back in the first century, “"I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.”


Luk 10:17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying: "Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name."
Luk 10:18 At that he said to them: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Look! I have given YOU the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will by any means do YOU hurt.
Luk 10:20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice over this, that the spirits are made subject to YOU, but rejoice because YOUR names have been inscribed in the heavens."


So Satan was partially thrown down in the first century and not in 1914 or some other time in the future. In other words Satan was partly defeated exemplified by the apostle’s new ability to make demons obey them as with subjects of a kingdom. Of course Revelation speaks to a future time of another casting down of Satan along of course with more defeats in the form of martyrs like Jesus.


So Jesus and Satan are both ruling concurrently at the moment. It’s not one or the other, but God’s church of believers will never have death defeat them Christ says.


Mat 16:18 Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha'des will not overpower it.


So it seems to be a case of a political contest in heaven with man caught in the middle of the debate in heaven. So as with a hung parliament both parties rule together until such time as the issues are worked out. Don’t get me wrong though because Satan is acting unjustly but God won’t act unjustly towards him so the issues are fairly and publicly dealt with. Only when this is done can the kingdom really come.


Interesting thing did Jesus say about the kingdom however:


"The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness,”
Luk 17:21 neither will people be saying, 'See here!' or, 'There!' For, look! the kingdom of God is in YOUR midst."


(Interestingly only the new world translation quoted above implies any visible ness at all with the initial coming of the kingdom.)


The kingdom starts in the heart, the heart of man through Jesus. Jesus was the first stone of the kingdom temple. After him through the Holy Spirit the kingdom is literally in the hearts of his followers. In other words the kingdom has been here for two thousand years. Anyone who follows Jesus is creating a peace of the kingdom of God on earth. This is a powerful thought because it means that when we give a few dollars to a “bum” or pounds to a tramp we are literally creating a bit more of Gods kingdom on the earth. When we show love to a tyrannical boss at work like Jesus would have done then, we are living in accord with the prayer to let your kingdom come”. If we dare to die to save another then we are that kingdom.


Satan’s full control over the kingdoms of earth was ended with Christ’s arrival on the earth and assured at his death and ascension. Now and for the last two millennia increasingly in all nations some have followed a different king, being in his kingdom now. When the temple stones are completed in Jesus’ followers then the kingdom can come in visible fashion. So perhaps Satan is defeated twice. Once back in the first century and again in the future. Our job is to live the kingdom now as you would say Beau. The more parts of the kingdom appear on the earth the faster the temple in heaven can be built.


I hope this idea is of some interest. It might be rubbish but at least it does encourage real action on the part of Christians to follow Jesus revolutionary ways for a revolutionary kingdom.

Beau! Great to read you again!:cheer::clap:

Sorry I got to this late (been away a while) but I've a thought on it too - perhaps this were a threat by the adversary against Jesus, that he would not be allowed to succeed in Jehovah's purpose. Anyway, it's explained better in:

www.worshipJehovah.org/JesIll/005_Days-in-Wilderness.asp#Kingdoms

Love to you as always brother!!!:siskiss:

Acts5v29