Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Thanks & Hello if you are reading this!

Someone rightly said other people's stories are boring, therefore this I

wll be writing chiefly for my own benefit

I have a need to know why I came into the world, why the world was

designed with so many pleasures and is breathtakingly beautiful?

As one of the great poet of my language Urdu Mirza Ghalib said and I

can only make a miserable paraphrase of one of his couplet (two

verses) "The world is a masterpiece of some artist that speaks for itself and yet every thing like garments of papers perishes so soon and is so mortal":( I hope Ghalib's 'rooh' (urdu for spirit) is not too angry with me!

The above mentioned couplet expresses my desire to know why I was born and why the heck do I have to die?

The Bible does not fully answer this!

But why it helps me to feel there is a God and I am willing to have respect awe and honor for him over all others who make a claim for my worship

I will begin at the begining Genesis and the marvelous order of creation that is described there the Genesis was written some 3500 years as some believe and a thousand years later that is 2500 years as others think.

In any case pick up the religious or science book of that time period and see how it compares with what you read in Genesis

further on we read God created humans they rebelled. God threw them out of Eden, and yet did not abandon them. Yes God even talked with them and accepted sacrifices of both Abel and Cain so he was speaking to them. He did not excommunicate them like you know who;)

"And men became evil and they started killing each other and "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth.....
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth and it grieved him at his heart" Genesis6:5,6.

Thank you Lord I am not alone who hates the violence, brutality and murder you too were hurt and were feeling regret over what you yourself made with your hands. Hailluyah!! This God I can have respect for he is not too arrogant to accept what went wrong and not own it:cheer::cheer::cheer:

The lesson of the flood for me: its not what the majority thinks, says, approves is what counts with my Lord:clap:

For my Lord saved only one family among the who knows how many billions of mens and demon's ofsprings

I believe this is what got everbody's and Nimrod's too goat. They just could not reconcile to the fact that men's ways are not God's ways. And the Lord owns this world and all else and we MUST SUBMIT in love for his righteousness (The word righteousness is not a small word it contains a world in itself and has special meanings in the biblical languge)

So the people who came after the flood hated God who killed billions of oh so innocent human beings (Dont you read of posts on this board where people call the God of the OT a blood thirsty revengful God as if they were over and above him and could hold him accountable)

My God the Lord again gives out a complete set of standards and rules that humankind has to follow and blesses them and says and lo and behold!!!

"And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil form his youth; neither will I again smite anymore everything living, as I have done"

"in his heart" Thank you Lord not only do you feel such tender feelings in your heart for refuse such as we are, but you are so magnanimous to even have it written in your own book for us to see. The intention of my Lord is to let us see if we want to see what a tender hearted diety this is (yes the God of the OT is a revengful blood thirsty God aint he?)

This is going to be like a long post and this is just the first part if any of you want to make an comment you are most welcome, but as I said it earlier this is for me and myself first and foremost!

Thank you Lord my God for all that you think, feel, do and most of all sacrifice for us

your unworthy creature

YHVH is LOVE.
Jesus is TRUTH.

Praise YHVH. Praise His Anointed, Jesus.

Thank you for our expressions of faith fzubair.

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh

Dear farhat :love:
I Love that we can be your sounding board and that you will share these deep thoughts of yours with us--the meaning of life is something I think most everyone grapples with at one time or another. It may well be a part of the ''seeking'' Jesus told us to do. I think of James saying we are ''but a mist appearing for a little while and then disappearing''. So many have said they wonder what it's all about and if there isn't More than this....I personally believe we are here to find our faith--to find God and to find Christ and to solidly connect with them--we need them at a heart level,-- and for me that is the meaning of life.......By the way--I will never consider your posts on this boring...it is a pleasure to have you share....:grouphug:

Well this question is an easy one since the answer applies to all mankind.

To Glorify God and to be with Him forever.

What happened then? ( read the first 8 Chapters of Romans )

" In Christ "

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

That's one beautiful (and succinct) answer, BB. :thumbup: Thanks! :)

Hi Brother Farhat :hibye:

I remember very vividly that I was wondering that very thing before I even began walking, as I would sit on the ground an be amazed watching ant colonies. Then I would turn my head and see the Q8 Bus on the avenue belching out black smoke....or jets roaring overhead leaving black smoke trails (they were very noisy and dirty in those days) ...or the elevated train half a block away rattling by every 2 minutes further disturbing the peace....this is not to mention to suffering, anger, and misery all around me....my family was disfunctional, people were sick and dying, there was graffiti, garbage, and dog poo everywhere....It caused severe "cognitive dissonance". :dontknow: Somehow I thought to myself, "something went terribly wrong somewhere, whoever made this beautiful earth is letting it get ruined for some reason...." :thinking:

Yes He does, and the Bible says so in several places, most notably Psalms 50:12. Paul quoted from it at 1 Corinthians 10:26 and 10:28. For some inexplicable reason, the quote was removed from the revised versions in verse 28. This was one tiny part of the TEN PERCENT of the "Received Text" that was blotted out of the Bible. The New World Order cronies are obviously the culprits, there's no room for God to own the earth and everything in it. That would mess up their plans a little.

The point I'm trying to make is that YES, the Bible, especially the Hebrew Scriptures that the New Testament writers and Jesus Himself quoted from, was inspired by God. When we see deliberate changes and omissions that took place to support a nefarious agenda, does it not reinforce in our minds that the Bible is the Word of God? It does for me.:)

:heartbeat:
Jesh

Hi Jesh,


If as you say God protected his word (the OT) for all those thousands of years but was unable to do so for the last 2000
then what does that say about God? And if true why believe a single word in it.

[/quote]

The problems occurs when instead of using exegesis ( to draw out of the text the meaning using proper Hermeneutics ) instead the reader uses Isisgesis ( reading their own meaning into the passage ) Some common errors are in phrases like " In the Spirit " " Flesh and Blood "
" Firstborn "

You really should read Josh Mcdowell's " Evidence that demands a verdict" If you want a copy PM me with a mailing address and I'll send you one.

" In Christ "

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

No, I never said He was unable.

My logic is, Yeshua came and read from the Tanakh in the Synagogues. If it had been corrupted I am sure He would have pointed it out.

Yeshua said that after He went away, someone wicked would come in and sow weeds among the wheat. It was to be allowed to grow together until the harvest.

Why should we think the Bible itself is not part of the field?

Bible worship is going to get a lot of people in trouble if they continue to believe that it is inerrant and live by every word. Part of the reason there are so many denominations in Christianity is because of all the different translations. In turn, the different translations lead to even more factions.

In order for the truth to be made manifest in the last days, the lies have to be exposed. I don't know exactly how it's going to happen, but what was allowed to go into the Bible for us to discern between the truth and a lie will be exposed as a lie. The implications are that the Bible, as a book on the global scene, will be further discredited. And yet, it contains all the truths that we need to get to that point, if we "test the inspired expressions"... I mean, BB, the Bible itself is telling us to put it under scrutiny. If Satan was allowed to put lies in it, and people believe it is inerrant, is it any wonder how even the chosen ones might be deceived?

:heartbeat:
Jesh

Hi Jesh, The wheat and tares are True and false converts.

Bible versions rarely are the reason for denominations, but interpetation is often the cause.

One of the most basic rules of Bible interpetation is scripture should interpet scripture.


Lets take this example of Wheat in scripture. Wheat and the harvest of it from the OT and the NT representing the Believer in Christ.
and the Unbeliever or unGodly represented by Chaff ( the thin light skin on the outside of a grain of Wheat).

Psalm 1:4,5

The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Here in Psalm 1 we have the Godly represented by a healthy fruit bearing tree, planted by rivers of water,whose leaf is not withered contrast with the ungodly which are like Chaff, dry, dead, and of no use it will not bear fruit ( Prosper )


Matthew 3:10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and [b]He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Again we have the contrast between the ungodly ( tree that bears no fruit ) and the wheat is the Believer the Chaff the Unbeliever or UnGodly.


John 12:24

24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Here we have another picture, first of Christ as the one grain of wheat who was buried and rose again.

Followed by His believers ( The first fruits of a great harvest to come ) and once again the Believer is the grain of Wheat as well.

Who in baptism is a picture of this same event ( died to the sinful life of the past buried with Christ in baptism and raised to newness of Life in Christ ) so the fruits of our Life might be of Righteousness and not of sinful deeds and that having died with Christ we might lead others to Him that come Harvest time there might be much grain.


_________________________________________________________

The literal interpretation of Exegesis is to "read out of the text." In other words, What is the text saying to it's readers in its literal sense. What was the intent of the author? Who was the Author's audience? What was the cultural and political climate of the day like? How did this impact the Author's perspectives? Isegesis is "reading-into the text." What is the text saying to me personally? How does it relate to my circumstances?
__________________________________________________________



" In Christ "
BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Genesis 10:
verse5
"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man: at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man"

verse6
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man".

Out of all the holy books of that time none is as eloquent on the sanctity of human life. Remember it was the wanton innocent shedding of the blood that caused the global deluge in the first place.

My God I salute you that from the very start you had concern for us. So that at the start of another new begining you mandated your laws on human life and its preciousness to YOU "FOR IN GOD'S IMAGE HE MADE MAN"

My Lord! you are such an elevating God, my previous faith and its book (The Quran) addresses humans contemptously when it says "that we (Allah) created man from putrifiying stinking mud and gave you life"

And here you are calling us gods made in your image I have no choice Lord you have bought me with your words.

verse16
"And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth".

The whole passage from verse 8-16 is touching. God almost pacifying his earthly children and all living things. Who says God does not have feelings of tender mercies and regret over rightfully metted out justice.

Chapter 12
"Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy house, unto a land that I will shew thee:2 And I will make thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great;
and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Now before Abram performed anything for the Lord andthing of which it could be said that what the Lord promised him was a recompense for what Abram promised to do or did.

"I will make thee a great nation I will bless thee and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Thank you Lord you are a law unto yourself. You are good to mankind and exalt some over others and you choose and you support and your criteria for your choosing is only known to you.

Thank you Lord that Abram was a man much like us a little undecided, a little coward, a little hesitant but you called him your friend and you promised that he and his seed will be always blessed by you and anyone who curses him or his seed will be cursed you.

Thank you Lord, you are always true to your promise. We know who those national groups are whom you have used to bless manking by giving them your holy writings, and later on you made others those who believed your Son the caretakers of your holy writings so that together these two groups of people who in reality are actually the sons of Jacob.

Thank you Lord for giving them glory and honor as you promised their father Abraham. Thank you Father that you are sustaining these naitons even today in the 21st century though they have turned away from you and do not recognize you as their saviour, there are still millions among them who know of their lineage and therefore consider the Bible to be the gift from God almighty given to the sons of Jacob i.e., the Jews and later the Anglo Saxon races (UK, USA, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND) the true heirs of Jacob who spread the word of God in all the world and provided us doomed sinners of the world the light and glory of the truth of Bible the Word of God Almight who is blessed forever!!!

Thank you Lord for your mercies!
Bless and saved be the faithful remnant of Abraham

Farhat Zubair

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Does this scripture not tell us that some might do these things to God's Inspired Word, and would be adversely judged for it? If the Holy Spirit was to somehow prevent these things from happening, would there be a need to end off the Bible with this warning?

:heartbeat:
Jesh

Hi Jesh,
Strictly speaking those words about adding or removing specifically apply to Revelation. But I guess in principle, by extension, they apply to the rest of scripture.

I have faith that God would not allow his Word to be so distorted that a person of faith may be misled. The harmony of the Bible's 66 books would soon show an anomaly if man were to insinuate its text with false prophecies and doctrines.
WCL
Derek

Hi Jesh,

There are literally 25,000 full or partial manuscripts of the NT in existance no other document of antiquity even begins to approach such a number. Second to it is Homers Iliad with only 643 copies surviving.

Now having said that there are those who translate to form there own doctrine in their translation.

Here is are Examples John 17:3 NWT


3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

( the english under the greek in the KIT reads " that that may be knowing you " )

Compared with the KJV and NIV

KJV 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

NIV 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

I hope you see the difference in the NWT. Here we have a group like the WTBTS who just happen to print a whole lots of books about the Bible ( and even call those who go door to door publishers )

but is taking in Knowledge how one gains Eternal life? Not at all .
Here is what Jesus has to say in John 5 to the Religious leaders of that day.

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Eternal Life is not gained by taking in Knowledge but by Coming to Jesus to have ones sins forgiven and have Him give them the free gift that can never be taken away of Eternal Life.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” ( see Duet 32:39 )

Another place instead words are added is in Col 1:15-16

NWT
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.

NKJV
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Reconciled in Christ

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

NIV
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

The [ other ] is added to take away HIS role as Supreme Creator of all Things and to add the doctrine of Him being a created being rather that the Supreme creator of " ALL THINGS "

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
And He who formed you from the womb:

“ I am the LORD, who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;

Christians are commanded by Our Lord to Remember Him by bread and wine and as in Acts 20:7 it appears they gathered on the first day of the week ( Sunday ) and did just that However lets look at the NWT

7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to have a meal, Paul began discoursing to them, as he was going to depart the next day; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.


( the english under the text in the KIT reads break bread )

NIV
7On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

NASB 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

KJV
7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

And of course the famous John 1:1 where over 100 translations say God the NWT says a God trampling on all the rules of NT greek translation

Mantey: Dr. Julius Mantey, author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"

Wescott: Dr. B. F. Wescott (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation): "The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in IV.24. It is necessarily without the article...No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word...in the third clause 'the Word' is declared to be 'God' ans so included in the unity of the Godhead."

So yes man can and will translate to suit his own corrupt ways.

" In Christ "

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Chapter 13:14
"And the Lord said unto Abram after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:15
For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it and

[/u] thy seed for ever."[/color]

Why do the Christian scholars not teach that the allotment of palestine to the sons of Jacob as stated in the Bible is a permanent situation. The land has been alloted to Abraham and his descendants for ever. The land has been given to Abraham's children through Issac.

While the christians in general and scholars in particular have convinced themselves that God's dealing with the Israelites is over ever since the temple and its worship system has ended. Far from it the Jews cannot change their physical situation i.e., of being descendant of Abraham.

And the Land is rightfully their's not only this there is another group the lost 10 tribes whose identity is still somewhat a mystery that are to return with the Jews and once again to Judah and Jerusalem. So that law will go forth out of Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem.[/u]

Hi brother Zubair,

It is not the work of God and his beloved Son to see this promise to Abraham is kept, rather than some politico-Zionist endorsement by men and governments of this world?
blessings
Derek


I have just read what I wrote last night and I must have been tired! :)

It should have read::

Is it not the work of God and his beloved Son to see this promise to Abraham is kept, rather than some politico-Zionist endorsement by men and governments of this world?
blessings
Derek

You will see two little words got transposed and my intended rhetorical question came out as a negative statement!!!!

I agree with you that God and Christ will keep YHWH promises to Abraham when this present system is brought to an end by God's Son.