Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

A Deep and Sincere Apology.

Hi Everybody: I’ve been acting erratically in the last few weeks and I want to apologize for that. Not too long ago someone started a thread discussing a Gnostic’s point of view of God and life and that topic drove insane and made me say some really mean and nasty things about God; somehow I judged Him and I began saying things that I now embarrass me and make me feel awful. I do belong to another forum and often times I get in a confrontation with a man that accuses Jehovah of many bad things and call Him all kind of nasty names. I get frustrated every time I confront this guy because I do not know what to answer when he accuses God of the things mentioned in the Old Testament, and what makes this matter even worse is the fact explaining things over the internet is very, very difficult. One day he recommended me the book Jehovah Unmasked, and he told me that reading that book was the very best thing I could do. Obviously, I did not like the title of that book but I went ahead and bought it anyway; I thought that this way I could find weaknesses in him and I could defeat him in our next discussion. Reading that book was a good and a terrible idea at the same time. It was good because you can easily see how low people can sink in order to discredit God; that book is full of lies, half truths, fiction and evil nonsense. Unfortunately, it gives a special and evil attention to all the unpleasant things mentioned in the Old Testament; things that have always disturbed me because I find them uncomprehensible. One day before doing what I did I saw a documentary about the terrible things that are going on in the Congo and that drove me insane; it is hard to believe how evil people can be. What I saw really upset me; I began crying for all the poor people of the Congo and I asked myself how can God put up with so much injustice, and then I remembered the things that I read in the book Jehovah Unmasked and I began to think just like the author of the book; his hatred towards God is infectious, and that is why I wrote what I wrote, even though I never meant it from the bottom of my heart. Ever since I did that I am not in peace with myself due to the blasphemies that I wrote against the God that I love. I already erased all of my comments in that thread and I need to tell you how sorry and embarrassed I am for what I did.

I also want to apologize to brother King for the letter that I published on his website and on this forum giving him “Advice” as to how to run his forum; it is obvious that he knows what he is doing; he’s proven us that with his last two great essays about the new creation and the revelation of the two witnesses. I already erased the two threads that I began about him and I want to ask for his forgiveness; what I did was very, very foolish; I want to tell him that I love him dearly, and I want to tell him that I do have the utmost respect for him, unfortunately I couldn’t find all the comments where I speak bad about brother King so I could erase them.

Even though some disturbing things mentioned in the Bible are uncomprehensible, there are others that might have a more reasonable explanation if we see them from another point of view. I’ve done a deep research into 1Samuel 16:15-16 and somehow I’ve come to the conclusion that we’ve misunderstood this Scripture all along. I would like to share with you what I think but first I need to write a long article about it so you can better understand why I think what I think, but first I’ll have to submit to the administrator for approval.

I want to apologize once again for everything I did, and I want to tell you how fortunate do I feel to belong to such wonderful ciber family.

Dearest Terra Nova,

I appreciate your words and the sentiment you gave in this post. The fact of the matter is that we all say and do things we wish we could take back, even over an extended period of time.

Just remember that love is Jehovah God's chief quality, is long suffering and kind, and is a quality sincerely sought by everyone on this board. I for one, look forward to reading your future posts and getting to know you as a spiritual family member.

Much Christian love,

Savvy

:grouphug::grouphug: welcome to the human race Terra!!;)

terra, i must also apologize for making the thread as 'fierce' as it was in the first place and triggering your response...i myself was in a similar 'place' as you when i started the thread, im now over it as well...so its all water under the bridge and we survived...take care!

:D

It is very hard to humble oneself and leave yourself in the hands of God, to put true faith in his means for salvation his son Jesus Christ & not a so called faithful & discreet slave. Who told you to put trust or faith which is basically the same thing in a SLAVE! The Slave is only supposed to supply food. He is rewarded for his good work when Christ comes to gather his chosen ones.

The Watchtower would have you believe that he has already come and is gathering his chosen ones into the Watchtower. Christ warned of those who would say he is in the inner chambers and of people being caught in their trap by their desire for Christ presence to come in their day. Well the men who started preaching 1914 as the end not the presence are now dead and the men who started preaching 1914 as Christ presence are now dead or about to die. All the original anointed who supposedly passed Christ test in 1919 are now dead. The Watchtower Society has been saying "See here" and "See there" since its inception!

26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it.

22 Then he said to the disciples: “Days will come when YOU will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man but YOU will not see [it]. 23 And people will say to YOU, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after [them].

We failed to heed Christ warning "not to chase after them" Jesus knew that people would prey upon their desire to be with him or see him but they may not live in the time when it actually happens so not to be taken in by people claiming that he has already arrived and is with them.

Some more scriputral warnings

(Deuteronomy 18:21) And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?”22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

Has the Watchtower spoke in the name of Jehovah things that did not come true?

(2 Thessalonians 2:2) not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

Notice these three things inspired expressions, verbal message and letters. Paul warns NOT to get excited or be shaken from your reason by these things that are said AS THOUGH FROM US. Who is the us? I would assume the apostles.


I find this Watchtower article very disturbing and quite frankly devious.

Watchtower 1/15/2001 Pg 29
These questions were answered at the annual meeting held on October 1, 1971. On that occasion, one of the speakers pointed out that the governing body of “the faithful and discreet slave” preceded the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania by hundreds of years. (Matthew 24:45-47) A governing body was formed at Pentecost of 33 C.E., more than 18 centuries before the Pennsylvania corporation came into existence. —Acts 15:2.

In 1971 the same speaker explained that the members of the Watch Tower Society could not vote in the members of the anointed Governing Body. Why? “Because,” he said, “the governing body of the ‘slave’ class is not appointed by any man. It is appointed by . . . Jesus Christ, the Head of the true Christian congregation and the Lord and Master of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class.” Clearly, then, the members of the Governing Body cannot be voted into office by the membership of any legal corporation.

Sticking to the point, the Governing Body today claims the same status as the apostles. This is exactly what Paul warned about when saying AS THOUGH FROM US. Secondly that the governing body has exsisted since pentecost????

That the governing body of “the faithful and discreet slave” preceded the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania by hundreds of years.

How can this be if they were JUST chosen as THE faithful & discreet slave in 1919? Can you have it both ways? It either has exsisted since Pentecost or it was chosen in 1919. Can you see the mounds of red tape the Society has buried the truth under? It is like a skate boarder with numerous bandaids and bandages all over with him broken bones and scrapes saying he is the best skate boarder ever and he has never fallen.

(1 Timothy 4:1) However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons,

(2 Corinthians 11:14) And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.

(2 Timothy 4:1-5) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom, 2 preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

We see several warnings in the scriptures that match exactly what witnesses fall prey too. They will not put up with heathly teaching from anyone. According to their own desires they accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled by false stories. How so? By believing in a false spiritual paradise created by a false F&DS who say everything will be ok if you follow their plan.

Because witnesses so blindly believe in this false F&DS with their spiritual paradise they turn away from the truth which is, there is no salvation in anyone else but Christ!

Terra Nova
All I can say is "You must not get frightened at him/them." Trust in Christ not men. We must all help each other get through the process of deprogramming the Borg program.:assimilation:

Hi Chuck: I think you’ve misunderstood me. I stand by what I said in regards to Babylon the Small and the so called true religion; I could care less what they think or what they do to me. What really distressed me was the fact that I went over the line when I judged the God of the Bible and the uncomprehensible things that we find in the Old Testament. It is hopeless to try to understand why God acted so differently with pagan people that were basically the same; no matter how hard I try I can’t understand why the punishment against them wasn’t the same. The Bible tells us not to go beyond what’s written, and obviously there is a reason for that. We must have faith in God’s justice even if God’s justice looks like injustice to us.

Terra

Babylon is Babylon. Everyone has been tained by Babylon the great to some degree. Thats why God pleads "get out of her MY PEOPLE". Just like the wheat is among the weeds so is God's people among Babylon the great. Those who get out of her become God's people the wheat. Those who share in her sins are the weeds. The harvest is when the separation takes place.

24 Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. 26 When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. 27 So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’”

37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


Now Terra if the Watchtower Bible & tract Society is the true religion and people must flock to it to be saved, how is it that the separating work is not being done now like the Watchtower used to believe? They used to teach that their preaching work was the separating work. That if you became a witness you were a sheep. But now they say since 1995 that the separation of sheep and the goats is future. So is essense they are saying the Harvest is future. So if the harvest is future than why does anyone need to be part of any religion. Notice to that the weeds are collected FIRST which leaves behind the wheat. Are the weeds gone yet? Notice also the field is the world NOT an organization.

Nothing is said that would indicate a need to be in a certain religion first before the harvest, no but the need to be separated from false religion during the harvest!

Your not the first to be angry at God or confused at how he handles or doesn't handle something. Habakkuk expressed himself and asked God why he lets things happen.

2 How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, and you do not hear? [How long] shall I call to you for aid from violence, and you do not save? 3 Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And [why] are despoiling and violence in front of me, and [why] does quarreling occur, and [why] is strife carried?

4 Therefore law grows numb, and justice never goes forth. Because the wicked one is surrounding the righteous one, for that reason justice goes forth crooked.

Also Abraham questioned God's righteousness as far as Sodoms judgment. He did not know if God was being righteous in destroying the whole city. God proceed to assure Abraham the he would not destroy the city if there was righteous people in it. He did save righteous lot and his family. I think God will assure us as to his judgments that they will be done in righteousness. Since none of us are righteous but are only declared righteous by our faith in Christ, we must make sure are faith is strong in Christ and that we have works like the man of faith abraham. Abraham was willing to make sacrifices to do God's will. We also have to make sacrifices like getting disfellowshipped for standing up against the lie. In making a stand for the truth we can lose alot. Family and friends. But we will gain much more as Christ promises.

Hi Chuck: I have mixed feelings in regards to the true religion. There is no doubt that Babylon is everywhere we look at; however, there are places in which Babylon is very easy to see and discern; for example the Catholic Church. I personally believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses are indeed God’s people; I just don’t think that are as great and pure as they claim to be, and I certainly do not believe that you need to be one of them in order to be saved. I do believe that during the time of the end, just like it happened in Nineveh, God will give all of mankind the chance and the opportunity to repent and be saved. However, I think it is a mistake to consider the Watchtower Society as any other religious organization, and not see the things that make her stand out. Despite its errors and lies the Watchtower Society preaches a message that is closer to the truth than any other; it is also the religion that makes the most sense as far as I’m concerned. However, let us not forget the operation of error the apostle Paul talked about and how it makes sense to think that that operation of error is the 1914 doctrine all that comes with it. Now, do you see this operation of error being fulfilled in any other religion other than Jehovah’s Witnesses? I don’t.

Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.....True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way...But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness”.


The fact that the Governing Body and its attitude is modeled after the priesthood of Babylon is very worrisome indeed.- it’s either their way or the highway-. How do you explain that these men who consider themselves to be faithful and discreet could be so stupid, blind, stubborn and haughty? They’ve been told about their errors and mistakes time after time and they don’t change, instead they kick out of paradise anyone who dares to question their “Light”? Don’t you think that these and other things fulfill Paul’s words in a more meaningful way? If they do, don’t you think there is something special about these men, even if that special characteristic is an undesirable one? The fact that the Bible mentions their traits and attitude means that they are to be taken seriously, not as trustworthy guides but as people to be worried about. Don’t you think so?

However, let us not forget the operation of error the apostle Paul talked about and how it makes sense to think that that operation of error

why cannot the error be attributed to any other christian religion?  why are you pointing to it as only applying to the wt?


TD

Terra Nova said:

"The fact that the Governing Body and its attitude is modeled after the priesthood of Babylon is very worrisome indeed.- it’s either their way or the highway-. How do you explain that these men who consider themselves to be faithful and discreet could be so stupid, blind, stubborn and haughty? They’ve been told about their errors and mistakes time after time and they don’t change, instead they kick out of paradise anyone who dares to question their “Light”? Don’t you think that these and other things fulfill Paul’s words in a more meaningful way? If they do, don’t you think there is something special about these men, even if that special characteristic is an undesirable one? :eek::jawdrop:The fact that the Bible mentions their traits and attitude means that they are to be taken seriously, not as trustworthy guides but as people to be worried about. Don’t you think so?"

Do you even realize what your saying Terra? You are basically saying that God's people are known by their error of believing a satanic lie. Did you realize that those who believe in or teach the operation of error will PERISH!

"for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved."

How can those who teach the operation of error be God's people if those who teach it will perish and NOT BE SAVED because they DID NOT love the truth. Jesus said you would recognise these imposters and bad men by their fruits. I have recognized them and seen their fruits.

15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

Jesus said you will know my disciples by their love. I have found many true disciples of Christ that show true love not the conditonal love the Watchtower teaches but true love for God and neighbor. Some are Jehovah's wtinesses and some are not. God's people are those who follow Christ and remain in his word not in a organization that teaches the operation of error.

Some nice thoughts there, Son of Comfort.:thumbsup::read:
Sister Grateful.:giverose:

Dear Terra

Do you think you're the only one to be perplexed at trying to fathom out the seeming injusticies featured in the O/T?
I believe Jammin4 or someone? on the old D/B mentioned her fustration at reading the Gibeah account and not coming up with any satisfactory conclusions to it.
Someone else stated at the time that it remains one of the great UNFATHOMABLE mysteries of Scripture.
I agree.
I comfort myself by the notion that the Bible record (logically) omits many of THE FACTS; it has to, otherwise none of it can be reconciled to the God of LOVE that we all cherish and trust.
You've purchased a book that homes in on these discrepancies and is now making you question Jehovah's motives; the book is achieving its purpose.
But don't feel guity about it: to be honest it would probably get me thinking about stuff too if i read it, so I DON"T READ THAT TYPE OF MATERIAL!!
I do believe that when we ALL know the FACTS about the O/T record then we'll feel so much better.
Until then bro i doubt whether ANYONE ELSE on the globe has the answers we seek that would remedy the situation so I THINK i'll just sit back and chill out!!
Remember that Jehovah remembers that we are all made from dust, Ps. 103.

Nick :drinking:

Hi Chuck: I think you are taking things out of context in regards to the Man of Lawlessness. Here are some things that the Bible says about him:

“He sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god”.

If we are going to interpret the Bible correctly, we must let the Bible interpret itself. The Bible clearly says that the anointed ones are God’s temple, now, what other religion besides Jehovah’s Witnesses teaches that there are two types of salvation? None. Doesn’t this kind of understanding makes the JW religion special and different? The Bible says that the Man of Lawlessness acts and consider himself to be a god. His humbleness and his love are phony. It doesn’t take a genius mind to figure out what kind of fakes those who consider themselves to be faithful and discreet really are. They are terrified of admitting their mistakes, so instead of admitting that they have made a fool out of themselves, they continue to teach a lie in order to save face. Obviously, if they did not consider themselves to be gods in the flesh they would act differently; they would be humble and would apologize to all the people they’ve hurt and mislead throughout the years, but they don’t do that. Instead they retaliate against anyone who refuse to believe the stupid nonsense they teach and call them unrepentant apostates that deserve to be kick out of paradise because they have offended the intelligence and honor of the holy gods. I wonder who do you think the Man of Lawlessness is.

Hi Nick, reading that book was indeed a big mistake, you have no idea how terrible and blasphemous it is. He masterfully combines truths, half truths, lies, fiction and deceit and serves you a deadly cocktail that leaves you drunk and confused. I thought I could handle it but looks like it was a little bit too much for me. I am going to burn that book because it is obvious that that book was written by Satan himself; it is that bad. Having that book is like having Satan whispering in your ears, telling you to rebel against the God of the Bible. If anyone of you thinks about reading it I can tell you that it won’t do you any good. Stay away from it.

Dear Terra

Ya don't have to convince me bro. :D :D

Nick

It makes me very happy to read this thread, Terra Nova!

Satan gets to all of us, bro.

Christian Love to you,

Lou