Hello friends, I was asked to put up an invitation to the think tank for next week, October 14th, Sunday. We were thinking of considering literal death vs. figurative death.
The JW belief:
Rom. 6:7 ..because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Their idea is that we are not accountable for what we do, in this world.. (except if we commit the unforgivable sin)
My idea: Rom. 6:7..in the context is talking of figuratively dying at the point of baptism..from the old life onto the new..
Hope to see you then....:friends:
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Hi friends, What will we study next week? Hope I wasn't too dogmatic about man only meant to live a thousand years.. I really am not set in stone, on that idea.. And Resolute, when you seemed to imply that maybe we don't go to heaven.. I thought about it some more and looked up some scriptures.. and no, not alot of evidence that we have a heavenly hope..but only a little.. So.. that may be something interesting to talk about... What do you all want?
[Name changed due to privacy issue]
And Resolute, when you seemed to imply that maybe we don't go to heaven.. I thought about it some more and looked up some scriptures.. and no, not alot of evidence that we have a heavenly hope..but only a little.. So.. that may be something interesting to talk about
Hey, New Truth. It WAS a very lively and fast-moving discussion, wasn't it! I think something got lost in the traffic though. :D My view on going to heaven hasn't changed in the last while so I'm not sure why you have the impression that I think we may not go to heaven.
Perhaps I can clarify my view here:
There seems to be evidence in Revelation 11:11,12, that those represented by the 2 witnesses are called to heaven after their resurrection.
"And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: “Come on up here.†And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them."
And coupled with the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 which reads:
"For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving*[Lit., “the (ones) being left around.â€] will, together*[“at the same time.â€] with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord."
....it would seem most likely that those who belong to Christ at the time of the first resurrection would be going to where he is....that is...in heaven.
Perhaps you are confusing my views with Jim's. The footnote in the 2001 translation does ask the question as to whether anyone goes to heaven.
One of the things that I did say was that perhaps there is some confusion as to what is heaven. Traditionally, folks have thought that heaven is "up there" because, as Jim has pointed out, the Greek word for "heaven" is simply "sky"....just as the Greek word for "earth" is just "ground". So people point up when they refer to heaven.
My current view is that "heaven" is more properly thought of as another dimension, outside of our familiar time and space. Also, I believe that I expressed the belief that in Eden there may have been a joining of heaven and earth, with a separation occurring on the occasion of man's sin.
I strongly feel that a careful reading of Revelation 21,22 raises the idea that when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth and "the tent of God is with mankind" there is a rejoining of what was lost in Eden and we will have "heaven on earth". Those who have washed their robes will have entry to the tree(s) of life inside the city by it's gates.
Just a little further on that subject, it's my belief also that, after the final conflict between Gog and Magog and the beloved city that the last part of Daniel 2:35 is fulfilled, where it says:
"And as for the stone that struck the image, it became a large mountain and filled the whole earth."
I guess you could say that I believe that, eventually, "heaven" --God's dwelling--will be here on earth. Or, as Jim says, "Whatever ground Jehovah provides for us in the future" ( We did really go rather "far out there" in our discussion of what might eventually happen to our planet in the course of time, and what steps Jehovah might take to replace or renew our earth. He referenced the scripture at Hebrews 1:10-12:
"And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.â€
What comforted me regarding this scripture, is the thought that Jehovah would never allow his children to perish. So, even though our present earth does go 'the way of all things', there will always be a place for us, his sons! (John 1:12; John 14:1-3)
By the way, thanks so much for choosing such a good topic for discussion and for your introduction. There is probably more that could be discussed on this topic. Would you like to continue it next Sunday?
Love, as always, Rez :giverose:
Wonderful topice NewTruth :clap::clap:. Hope to be able to be there.
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Hello Love Jeh..and Rez,
Rez, thanks for providing more clarification.. It's extremely deep of a subject and needs alot of it.. :shocked:
You provided: Rev. 11 and I Thes. 4 and pointed out that the outcome for the 2 witnesses and the ones 'meeting the Lord in the air' was 'heaven'.
I do not think either of these scriptures is talking of recieving spirit bodies and leaving the flesh, and ascending to literal heaven, but rather uniting in marriage with the lamb and recieving immortality, at this point.
Sorry, about my misunderstanding, the conversation was running out of time.. and I missed some stuff.
You said:
I strongly feel that a careful reading of Revelation 21,22 raises the idea that when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth and "the tent of God is with mankind" there is a rejoining of what was lost in Eden and we will have "heaven on earth".
This has to be true.. 'heaven on earth'.. yes. I do think this scripture occurs at the end of the GT, not at the end of the 1000 years, however.
Hebrews 1:10-12:
"And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.â€
This probably means a 'renewing' of the earth' but then, who knows.. maybe we are running out of oil and such.. and there will be something else.. interesting..
Looking forward to sunday..... Love, NT:ok:[/quote]
You said:
Quote:
I strongly feel that a careful reading of Revelation 21,22 raises the idea that when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the earth and "the tent of God is with mankind" there is a rejoining of what was lost in Eden and we will have "heaven on earth".
This has to be true.. 'heaven on earth'.. yes. I do think this scripture occurs at the end of the GT, not at the end of the 1000 years, however.
Yes, NT, I also believe that this happens at the beginning of the 1000 years and that the work of the New Jerusalem is complete by its end. The temple vision of Ezekiel that describes the deepening of the water flowing from the sanctuary, to me, is a picture of the increasing blessings flowing to mankind from the 'tent of God' down through the 1000 reign of Christ and his bride. (Revelation 21:1-4)
See ya there on Sunday!
Love, Rez :giverose:
One extra point, Ephesians 1:10 does not use the word ....'again'.
So the combining of heaven and earth will be a first for humans: There will be extra blessings like Job received for his endurance (doubled in fact) and as Joel says, Jehovah will make compensation for the suffering.
Love vicky
Here are some ideas I had this week.. Maybe some talking points in here, what do you think?
What is Judgment Day?
These are some of my ideas. I would like to hear yours also. So here it goes:
I'm thinking the 'day of judgment' refers to the 1000 year millenium reign of Christ Jesus and his kingdom. (a day to Jehovah is a thousand years, and vice versa). I believe the D of J begins at the beginning of the Kingdom reign, which begins in the middle of the 7 year 'presence' of Christ. The 1st 3 1/2 years is when Michael battles the political-looking dragon. (Rev. 12).. I believe this to also be Armaggedon. Then Satan is thrown out of heaven, and the saints and Jesus are given the Kingdom. At this time there is another 3 1/2 years, where the devil is angry and also when the separation of the sheep and goats takes place, thus judgement day has begun as the thousand year reign.
As far as I can tell, at the end of the 1000 years, Satan is then let loose and again tests ones on the earth and many fall. It appears that immediately after this, the dead from past milleniums as well as the ones from the past 1000 year reign, all stand before the Great White Throne, and at that time, are either in the book of life or are thrown in the lake of fire, the final death.
The Ressurection of the Righteous, men of old.
The righteous ones in union with God appear to have had the 1st ressurection to heaven on the 5th seal. Rev. 6:9 The 5th seal, I think occurs near the end of the 1st 3 1/2 year period of Armaggedon. They are told to wait a little longer, and given white robes. Then when all is finished, and the New Heavens and Earth are here, at the end of the 7 year presence of Christ, the faithful ones from heaven come down to earth, as a bride adorned for her husband and possibly physically join him for the rest of the thousand year reign here in earth in human bodies.
The Marriage of the Lamb
The marriage, I think takes place, as the end of Armaggedon, and in the middle of the 7 year period, of Christ's presence. I also think that this is the 7th trumpet and may slowly take place during the last 3 1/2 years as the bible talks of different watches of the night. The 7th trumpet could be an extended sound during the last 3 1/2 years.. In the parable in Luke 12:35, about the master return for the Wedding Banquet, it talks about him arriving at the 2nd or the 3rd watch.. Also, in Math. 24:20, it talks of a GT, and for us to pray that our flight will not take place in the winter or the sabbath.. implying that the other days of the week or the other seasons of the years are when we want our flight to take place, rather than in one big swoop, at a pointed period.
Please note that the jubilee is a continuous trumpet sound:
blast of a horn (from its continuous sound); spec. the signal of the silver trumpets; hence the instrument itself and the festival thus introduced:--jubile, ram's horn, trumpet.
For the Thinktank of Sunday October 8, 2007
What are the implications if Abraham enters New Jerusalem?
As Jehovah's witnesses we have assumed that all pre-christian faithful people would remain on the earth.
AV Hebrews 11:8-16
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
But what about that city in Hebrews 11:10, 16?
AV Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Why is there no more Death?
AV Luke 20:27-40
27 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,
28 Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
29 There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
30 And the second took her to wife, and he died childless.
31 And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died.
32 Last of all the woman died also.
33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.
40 And after that they durst not ask him any [question at all].
Oh boy 'Mostly Harmless one', I had better start researching. I now realise I know nothing when it comes to the Bible.
Don't want to meet the non-harmless bit though.
vicky
:thumbsup:
So dear friends, what was it we were going to study today? A few ideas were talked about yesturday.. or was it something we discussed last week..?
:thumbsup:
So dear friends, what was it we were going to study today? A few ideas were talked about yesturday.. or was it something we discussed last week..?
Rez, Thinking Man, Manirus and BR had a very bad storm last night and won't have any power for three days, so perhaps tonight if there are not many of us, we can do a pot luck, this and that discussion.
vicky
Coming think tank topic:-
What will the presence of Christ be? Will he return as a human?
vicky
Coming think tank topic:-
What will the presence of Christ be? Will he return as a human?
vicky
Thanks for posting the topic for tonight's thinktank, Vicky! Should be interesting to hear everyone's views.
Next week we'll be considering the two covenants mentioned in Galatians chapter 4. We were reading this section in the bible study 101 yesterday and time didn't permit the discussion that it deserved. Such a subject!
Love, Rez:giverose: