Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

The view from the watchtower:
Watchtower comments:
Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31- “ Is Jesus the “mediator” only for anointed Christians?
… So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians. …The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant.

Watchtower 1979 November 15 p.27 Benefiting from “One Mediator Between God and Men”
“They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the “chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.”—1 Pet. 2:9.

WT ’03 2/15, 19 Anointed Christians are certain of their heavenly hope, of their having been taken into the new covenant. Jesus mentioned it when he instituted the Memorial and said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.” (Luke 22:20) The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator. Made operative by Christ’s shed blood, the new covenant took out not only from the Jews but also from the nations a people for Jehovah’s name and made them part of Abraham’s “seed.”

the Word:
Gla. 3: 26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
Acts 6: 53 Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day...
.Jn6: 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”
Jn6:47 Most truly I say to YOU, He that believes has everlasting life.
John 17: 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge….or, “having knowledge”
Jer. 31:31 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;
32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”
    33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”
  

It just occurred to me, reading these scriptures, that when Jesus said by eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood we would have everlasting life- he didn't mean it gave us everlasting life, but we had the everlasting life of Jesus Christ within us, giving us the hope of resurrection!

Does that make sense?

Your sister,
Micah

Hi Micah!
That makes total sense to me too...:rolleyes::P:cool::D

If you know the history of the WT Society, you will recognize the dilemma they were in back in the 1930s. They had taught that Armageddon was coming in 1914, in 1919, in 1922, etc., and nothing had happened. They also taught that all in the organization at the time were "the anointed" and composed the 144,000 who would be taken to heaven. However, by 1935 there were almost 144,000 in the organization claiming to be the anointed, so they realized that something was wrong.
As the result, they "grandfathered" all in the organization who claimed to be the anointed (most of them), and proclaimed that Jehovah had set a cut-off date for selecting them. So, at the convention in 1935, they asked "the great crowd" to stand up. And those who thought that they wouldn't have to go from door-to-door if they weren't the anointed, did so (including my mother).
Well, since this new group was a secondary class, they were thereafter proclaimed "the Jonadab class," or people who weren't spiritual Jews; so it was said that they didn't come directly under the New Covenant, and that they shouldn't partake of the sacred emblems. For, partaking of Jesus' blood and flesh would make them "one" with him and part of the bride class.
YET THERE ARE NO SCRIPTURES OR "TYPES" FOR SUCH TEACHINGS. THEY ARE SIMPLY JUSTIFICATIONS FOR WRONG BELIEFS.
Realize that, while the Bible does speak of two groups at Revelation 7, the first group (the 144,000) does not comprise all of Israel. Read what Revelation 7:4 says... that they were chosen FROM (Gr. ek) the twelve tribes of Israel. And Jesus promised his Apostles (at Matthew 19:29) that they (the 144,000) would judge the 12 tribes of Israel (which the Society teaches is the world). Does Israel picture the world, or does Egypt?
Obviously Israel pictures those who claim to be in a covenant relationship with God, which includes all of Christendom!
And if you look at the terms of the New Covenant, which are found at Jeremiah 31:33, 34, you'll see that these terms apply to all Christians. "This is the Sacred Agreement that I’m going to make with the house of Israel at that time … I will put My Laws inside them and write them in their hearts. I will become their God and they will become My people. They won’t have to teach their friends and brothers to know Jehovah, because they will all know Me, from the least to the greatest … because I will forgive their mistakes and forget their sins."
Realize that although there were two classes that left Egypt under Moses, they all were under the Old Covenant, and they all celebrated -- and partook of -- the Passover feast. This is the "type," and there are no scriptures to tell us anything else. All the rest is simply a made up story.
So, the Witness GB holds a great responsibility before Jehovah for misleading the sheep by telling them that they shouldn't partake of the Memorial emblems.
Please NOTE: I am not saying that all are becoming the bride class when they partake. The covenant with the bride class was a separate one (the Covenant of a Kingdom) that Jesus made with his Apostles. However, all Christians should agree to the terms of and agree to be a part of the New Covenant.
For more information, see the link http://www.2001translation.com/New_Covenant.html

Exellent points you brought out, CR- is it okay to shorten your name to this??? :);):friends:

I love the fact that you brought out that those who stood up as part of the "great crowd" at that particular convention thought that by doing so they wouldn't have to preach anymore. I always wondered what their motivation was for cutting themselves off from Jesus.

As Gus is fond of telling us, they have power over us because we gave it to them.

Not anymore! Let us all stand fast to the integrity we've found, and always share it with our brothers and sisters.

Much love to you, CR, and all others,
Your sister in Christ, by the Grace of God,
Micah:neo:

Hello friends! :wave:
I thought this thread I just finished reading on JWD - http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/132449/1.ashx -
might fit in nicely with this discussion. :nicethread:

:thumbup: Some interesting points brought out between the side-tracks. :whistle:

:peace:

Call him Jim, I am sure he won't mind.
You can call me vicky, vickster or pigface.

:quiet:  :quiet:  :quiet:



Mx :paperbag:

thanks for that History lesson, it shows how one 1914 is the root of all false prophecy., and the damage to our understanding the truth that it has caused.

one thing i would like you to expand on for my sake is where you say

"obviously israel pictures those who claim to be in a covenent relationship with God which includes christendom."

i do not understand the reasoning behind this.

here to learn

Elihu

The delimma occurred when the Judge took over. Few realize that up until the mid 1920s, the Society taught and believed that the New Covenant, was actually the New LAW Covenant, to be made with the Jews (Jer. 31:31) and that through the Nation of Israel, the whole world would be bless and come under the New Covenant. Where does that leave the Church? They were under the Abrahamic Covenant, Gen 22:17 and Gal. 3:29

RR

Yes the original covenant is the Abrahamic covenant.
Because of the faith of Abraham, Jehovah made a covenant, saying by means of his seed (Jesus) all the nations would be blessed. He also said that his seed would be like the sands of the sea and the stars of the heaven. His seed aren't his literal offspring, but those that show the same faith as Abraham, whether they be earthly or heavenly in destiny, (hence the sand and the stars). Galatians 3:7. Galatians 3:26,29. Romans 9:7-9.
To this main covenant, were attached two other covenants, first the mosaic law covenant, then the new covenant. These were represented by Hagar, and Sarah respectively, who had to be with Abraham to produce fruitage. The new covenant is built on the Abrahamic, just as Sarah was married to Abraham.
The WT society gets this very wrong. The Abrahamic covenant never ever ends.
It did not end with the death of Jesus or three and a half years after that, because it includes all those who have a faith like Abraham, who will live forever, and the blessing of Jesus which will continue. Gal. 3:8,9, Gal. 3:17 (a law does not invalidate a promise).

Love vicky

Texts dealing with the New Covenant and the immediate and intended audiences.
Jeremiah 31:31-34; 32:39,40
Matthew 26:28
Mark 14:24
Luke 22:20
1Cor.11:25,26
2Cor.3:6
Hebrews 7:22;8:8-13;9:15-20;10:16

littleone (at another site) has posted well researched (imo) material regarding the new covenant (etc.)

I am posting it here, (in case Robert King does not agree with it and deletes it):

"Transgression

"For I well know that without fail you (Israel) kept dealing treacherously, and a 'transgressor from the belly' you have been called"-Isa 48:8

The nation of Israel proved to be, as a nation, a stubborn and rebellious people.
About them it is written: "From the day that you went out of the land of Egypt until YOUR coming to this place YOU people have proved rebellious in YOUR behavior with Jehovah."-Deut 9:7

Yes, the nation of Israel, on the same night that they came out of Egypt began to murmur to Moses saying: "Is it because there are no burial places at all in Egypt that you have taken us here to die in the wilderness?" Yes, Israel lacked faith in Jehovah, who had already shown them sign after sign of his strong right hand. Israel had not even entered into the law covenant with Jehovah, yet they were already transgressing against him. True to the words of Isaiah the prophet, Israel was a 'transgressor from the belly'.-(Isa 48:8)

Three months later Israel came to Mount Sinai. Before the nation received the 10 Commandments Jehovah told Moses: "And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' So Moses came and called the older men of the people and set before them all these words that Jehovah had commanded him. After that all the people answered unanimously and said: "All that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do."-Exodus 19:5-8 Did they keep the covenant? No, for after they willingly agreed to come under Jehovah's covenant, before they even received the 10 commandments, they disowned HIM by making a golden calf, and saying about it: "This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt." Yes, natural Israel proved to be transgressors 'from the belly'.

Let's now take a look at the 'Israel of God' (spiritual Israel.) The term "spiritual Israel" is a familiar one here. It represents Christ's anointed followers. Was "spiritual Israel" a 'transgressor from the belly' as well? To answer this question, let's take a look at the night that Jesus instituted the New Covenant (memorial). Many would say that Judas Iscariot was not present at the institution of the Lord's evening meal. Actually Jehovah's Witnesses are taught this. We are taught that Judas was first dismissed from the table, and then afterwards, Jesus instituted the evening meal with the 11 faithful apostles. Is this so?

Jehovah God 'HONORS' his word the bible. It is impossible for him to LIE. Yes, down to the smallest letter of his word, he is faithful to it. To establish if Judas was present or not, lets first look at Luke 1:3 there it says: "I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in LOGICAL ORDER to you, most excellent Theophilus" Yes, this being apart of the inspired Word of God, means EXACTLY what it says: "IN LOGICAL ORDER". Few would argue that this does NOT mean in 'chronological order'... in the proper sequence of events. Jehovah does honor his Word, so lets take a look at Luke's account of the 'Lord's evening meal', since we know that it is written in 'logical order'.

Luke 22:19 says to us: "Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf. "But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!"

Yes, AFTER Jesus made the 'new covenant', the 'betrayer' [Judas Iscariot] was STILL AT THE TABLE. Yes, Judas Iscariot became a member and fell under the "new covenant"!

Now, some would claim that Luke's account was NOT in 'logical order', they state: "A comparison of Matthew 26:20-29 with John 13:21-30 indicates that he departed before Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal. Luke's presentation of this incident evidently is NOT in strict chronological order, for Judas had definitely left by the time Christ commended the group for having stuck with him; that would not fit Judas, nor would he have been taken into the 'covenant for a kingdom.'"-[insight Vol 2, pg 130 4th paragraph]

So lets consider this: Does Matthew chapter 26 even mention when Judas has left the table? No. As a matter of fact, it doesn't mention him leaving the table at all. So from this can we conclude when Judas left? No. OK then, lets consider John's account. After reading it, you will discover that nowhere does John mention the partaking of the emblems. Nowhere does it mention concerning the bread "this means my body", and nowhere does it mention concerning the wine: "this means my blood".

What is to be said then? Is Luke a liar by saying he put these things in Logical order, which would mean Jehovah is a liar since this IS HIS WORD? May that never happen! BUT LET GOD BE FOUND TRUE, THOUGH EVERY MAN A LIAR"-Rom 3:4 Yes, God's word does not LIE to us. Men Lie! Jehovah does NOT! There is only one Gospel that claims to be in 'logical order', this being the Gospel of Luke. In the other Gospel accounts of this event, there is no reason to assume that Judas was not present. Yes, he did leave before Jesus commended the other apostles for having stuck with him, but this does not mean that Judas did not first partake of the bread and the wine. But you may ask, "what difference does this make"? It makes a HUGE difference. Why? Well let's first take a look at what the emblems symbolized. There is much to be said about them, but let's go over them in brief.

THE BREAD (the body)

Jesus Christ himself is the "sacrificial Passover lamb" that takes sin out of the world. Yes, he gave himself as a ransom for all, to buy us back from Adamic sin. In ancient Egypt, the first Passover lamb was slaughtered. This was a shadow of the reality though, because the reality belongs in Christ. Likewise as the Passover lamb was slaughtered and the blood was splashed on the lintel and the doorposts, and the 'flesh' of the lamb was then roasted and eaten, Jesus Christ our Passover lamb was slaughtered for us as our Passover.

Not all could partake of the Passover lamb though; Jews and circumcised alien residents were only allowed to partake of the Passover meal. Therefore let's see what Jesus said the bread stands for:

"This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf."-Luke 22:19

Yes, the bread stood for Jesus Christ's flesh that he had given in behalf of the Congregation of God (spiritual Israel). Concerning this flesh, Jesus said: "Most truly I say to YOU, unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of Man... You have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day" He further goes on to say: "Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever."-John 6:53-58 Yes, those who are his spiritual brothers must partake of Jesus' flesh, in order to have life. He called himself the true bread that comes from heaven. He is also the antitype for the manna that sustained the nation of Israel in the wilderness.

The Apostle Paul, under divine inspiration shows us another symbolic meaning to the bread, by saying: "The loaf which we break, is it not a sharing in the body of the Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf."-1Cor 10:16 Yes the eating of the bread symbolized a sharing in the body of Christ. What is the fulfillment of the body of Christ? "For just as the body is one but has many members of that body, although being many, are one body, so also is the Christ."-1Cor 12:4 Yes, Jesus himself is the head of that body, but those who are his brothers make up the rest of the body (arms, legs, ect..1Cor 12:14-26).

"Now YOU are Christ's body, and members individually."-1Cor 12:27

Yes, the breaking of that loaf symbolized Jesus' fellow body members having a share in - or a piece (provision) in that body, hence the term 'in Christ'. As Jesus had said: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf."-Luke 22:19 The 'YOUR' being spoken about is his fellow brothers of the Royal Priesthood. That is why just as Jesus lived a sacrificial life and sacrificial death, so also the members of his body likewise must live a sacrificial life and die a sacrificial death that will bring benefits to all mankind.

Yes, 'THE CHRIST' is made up of the head (Jesus Christ) and body (fellow anointed brothers) all become ONE SEED as Paul says: "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: "And to seeds," as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: "And to your seed," who is Christ.-Galations 3:16 then in verse 29 he says: "Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise"-Gal 3:29

Yes, all those who are Jesus' brothers become one body (one loaf), and that whole body constitutes one seed. Thus a seed does not sprout unless it first dies, likewise all Jesus' brothers are baptized into his death and must die a sacrificial death like his (physical and/or spiritual- Rev 11:7,8), in order to inherit a spiritual life like his (1Cor 15:42-45; John 12:24). Thus as Genesis 22:18 brings out: "And by means of your (Abraham) seed all the nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice." Yes, through the sacrifice of that 'seed' (the putting of death to it) all the nations (those who listen to 'Jehovah's voice' like 'the father of faith' -Abraham, and put faith in HIS provisions, namely Christ) are due for a blessing through that seed, during the Millennial reign.

THE WINE (blood of the New Covenant)

"Drink out of it, all of YOU; for this means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins."-Matt 26:27,28

Yes, for the 'many' Jesus' blood was to be poured out for the forgiveness of sins. Accordingly Hebrews 9:22 says: "unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place." Jesus shed his own life blood for forgiveness for the sins of many, not only for his fellow anointed brothers, but for all those that put faith in that shed blood.

The High Priest of Israel used to enter into the most holy place once a year with blood not his own, as a shadow of the reality. But Jesus entered into the real most holy place (heaven itself) to appear before Jehovah for all mankind's sake with his own blood to cover mankind's inherent sin from Adam.(Heb 9:23-28)

"This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood."-1Cor 11:25

All of Jesus Christ's brothers have a share in the 'new covenant', this is why they partake of "the cup". "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of the Christ?"-1Cor 10:16 By virtue of his blood, he prepared a way, a narrow way, for all his spirit anointed brothers to follow to become fellow kings and priests during his millennial reign. Jesus himself had to walk that narrow way to his death, yes even to be offered up as a sacrifice for all mankind. Likewise, his anointed brother's must walk that narrow path even unto death, by becoming 'footstep' followers of their Lord and Savior. They must drink the same cup that Jesus himself had to drink. Yes, a cup of self sacrifice and affliction.(Luke 22:42) They are sanctified by that 'blood of the covenant'-Heb 10:29

Jesus did ask two of his apostles: "Can YOU drink the cup that I am about to drink?"-Matt 20:22 Then he goes on to say: "YOU will indeed drink my cup,..."-Matt 20:23 Yes, all of Jesus' anointed brother's must drink out of the same cup and suffer the way that their 'head' and 'master' did. But it does prove to be a 'cup of blessing', for after they will have suffered, they will also be exulted like their Lord. Yes, they too would have a share in the same sufferings, but they too would also have a share of the same glory to follow. Thus by walking that narrow path (of the 'new covenant') to its completion and being poured out like a drink offering, they become "sealed in their foreheads", and have the unfading heavenly 'crown of righteousness' reserved in the heavens, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give them as a reward in the day of their resurrection (2Tim 4:6-8). Thus as Jesus said on the night that he instituted the 'new covenant': "I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my father"-Matt 26:29 That cup surely will prove to be a 'cup of blessing' for those who drink it to a finish!

Judas Iscariot (The 'Son of destruction')

Judas, one of the twelve, was chosen for a special blessing. He was chosen as one of the twelve foundation stones of God's spiritual temple. But he did not value sacred things. He proved to be a thief. Yes, he valued physical things more than spiritual things. Although he was sent out as one of the original twelve, performing powerful works in Jesus' name, he later proved to hate his Lord and Master. He could not accept a reproof (Matt 26:6-15).

As shown above, Judas was there during the institution of the new covenant. But did he appreciate sacred things? No. He esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was to be sanctified.(Heb 10:29) He did not value the provisions made for him through Jesus, even hating his own spiritual birthright, as his anti-type Esau did. Christ's sacrifice and provisions by virtue of his blood were worthless in Judas' eyes. Hence, he went out (and it was night) and sought to betray Jesus to the chief priests. Yes, after receiving his morsel, he left the 'household of faith', and agreed to betray Jesus for 30 silver pieces -A slave's price! By doing so, he also valued Jehovah himself as worth only a slave's price (Zec 11:13)

Judas Iscariot became the first 'transgressor' against the New Covenant. He was brought under it the same night that he transgressed against it. Therefore, he becomes the 'type' or 'shadow' of all those who transgress against it. In order to transgress against the new covenant, you must be apart of it, namely- one of Christ's brothers. No, Judas never was anointed with Holy spirit, but lets see how he became a 'transgressor from the belly' as spoken of by the prophet Isaiah.-Isa 48:8

Before spiritual Israel could be born as a spiritual nation (Pentecost 33 CE), Judas was already a transgressor, yes from the belly! He would not even see the birth of that nation, since he did away with himself. Yeah, Satan did away with him. Satan had no more use for Judas, he did his dirty deed, so Satan discarded him like a used rag. No, not even his new found friends, the chief priests of Israel, wanted anything to do with him. All transgressors of the covenant will follow the same path that Judas took, by betraying their their Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. They value physical things more than spiritual things, like there 'type' or 'shadow' Esau. They become blinded to spiritual things, and only see the value in the physical thing. And like the one born in the flesh (Ishmael), they start to persecute their own brothers, those of the covenant (promise) like Isaac. Furthermore they try to exalt themselves over their brothers, and lord it over them. Judas was called the 'son of destruction' and likewise these ones are called the same thing 'son of destruction' ('son of peridition') 2Thess 2:3

These ones, if allowed, would sit themselves as head in 'God's spiritual temple' so that they publicly show themselves to be 'gods'. Just as the scribes and pharisees sat themselves in 'the seat of Moses', likewise these ones sit themselves in the seat of the 'Greater Moses', Jesus Christ.(Matt 23:2, 2 Thess 2:4)

They would like to be the 'governors' of their brothers. They would like to play the part of 'mediator' between you and your head- Jesus Christ. They claim to be 'stars of light', but in reality they are full of darkness. (Jude 13) "These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a voilent storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved"-2 Peter 2:17 These ones are true apostates, because they have abandoned the straight path, and have stood in opposition to Jehovah himself, and thier Lord and Master Jesus Christ. ('apostasy' here used as the term for those who stand in opposition to Jehovah himself.) They act 'instead' of Christ, or 'against' Christ."

Thanks littleone.

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh


http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/in...#entry6001

Hi ISOMAM

Re: "...still attempting to validate an 'elite' class of "Christ's brothers,"

The use of the word 'anointed' tends to imply 'elite class', true.

I did not mean to muddy the waters. Sorry.

The presentation that Judas was part of the new covenant, could lead to further investigation....hopefully to those not familiar with this topic here at Paradise Cafe.

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh