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Hi Folks

Who is the mysterious "Babylon the Great"? The Watchtower Society teach that she is "false religion", but in this thread I would like to show how they use several lines of false reasoning to develop their "proof".

Consider this paragraph from their book Revelation - It's Grand Climax At Hand (p235):

"The great harlot"! Why so shocking a designation? Who is she? Some have identified this symbolic harlot with ancient Rome. But Rome was a political power. This harlot commits fornication with the kings of the earth, and this evidently includes the kings of Rome. Besides, after her destruction, "the kings of the earth" are said to mourn her passing. Therefore, she cannot be a political power. (Revelation 18:9,10) Additionally, since she is mourned also by the world's merchants, she could not picture big business. (Revelation 18:15,16) We read, however, that 'by her spiritistic practice all the nations were misled.' (Revelation 18:23) This makes it clear that the great harlot must be a worldwide religious entity.

There are several flaws in this argument.

First of all, they claim that she cannot be Rome or a political power because she commits fornication with the kings of the earth.

But wait a minute... ancient Ninevah was a city, a political power, and look how Jehovah described that ancient city:

"Woe to the city of bloodshed... owing to the abundance of the acts of prostitution of the prostitute, attractive with charm, a mistress of sorceries, she who is ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries." (Nahum 3:1-7)

So Ninevah, the city, the political power, was portrayed as a harlot, a prostitute, that ensnared the nations with her prostitution and sorcery.

Similarly, they eliminate big business using the same false reasoning, but we should again note that the kings of the earth were foretold to mourn upon the demise of the ancient city and wealthy political power Tyre:

"At the sound of the outcry of your sailors the open country will rock. And all those handling an oar, mariners, all the sailors of the sea, will certainly go down from their ships; upon the land they will stand. And over you they will certainly let themselves be heard with their voice and will cry out bitterly. And they will bring up dust upon their heads. In the ashes they will wallow. And they will have to make themselves bald with a baldness for you, and gird on sackcloth and weep over you in bitterness of soul, with bitter wailing. And for you in their lamentation they will certainly lift up a dirge and chant over you,
'Who is like Tyre, like her that has been brought to silence in the midst of the sea? When your stores went forth from the open sea, you satisfied many peoples. With the abundance of your valuable things and your articles of exchange you made earth's kings rich.'" (Ezekiel 27:28-33)

So here we have an ancient city that made earth's kings rich, and the merchants of the earth mourn over her demise.

Finally, they press home their false argument by jumping to the major leap that, since "by her spiritistic practice all the nations were misled", the great harlot must be a worldwide religious entity!

Yet, as I have already shown, the ancient city Ninevah was described as "ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries".

So the ancient cities of Ninevah and Tyre provide clear refutations to the argument that she could not be Rome, a political power - because Ninevah and Tyre were both cities and political powers, and yet described as a harlot and sorceress (Ninevah) and making earth's kings rich (Tyre).

In other words, simply because Babylon the Great commits fornication with the kings of the earth, does not eliminate a political power such as Rome, because Ninevah was also a harlot.

And simply because the kings of the earth and the merchants mourn over her demise, doesn't eliminate Rome, because kings and merchants also mourn the demise of Tyre! (Compare also Ezekiel 26:15-17, where the chieftains of the sea tremble at the demise of Tyre).

So the Watchtower Society have in no way refuted the argument that Babylon the Great is a political power such as Rome - instead, they have used false reasoning. (No wonder they make no references here to Tyre and Ninevah, which would completely contradict their arguments!)

In fact, they also contradict the interpretation given by the angel. When John wonders at her, the angel says: "Why is it you wondered? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and ten horns". (Rev 17:7)

When the angel says this, is he simply adding to John's confusion? No, he intends to reveal her identity! That is why the angel gives John the meaning of the symbols.

The angel says: "The woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:18)

Shouldn't we take the angel at his word? Here, he is telling John that Babylon is a city. And not just any city, but the city "that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

There was only one city that had a kingdom over the kings of the earth in John's day, and that was Rome!

Further, the angel tells us that the woman sits on a beast with seven heads, and that "the seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top". (17:9)

We should bear in mind that the word "mountain" doesn't have to mean something as enormous as Mount Everest. Jesus himself often sat on the Mount of Olives to teach - it's hard to picture him doing that on the top of Mount Everest!

So while there are two distinct words for "hill" and "mountain" in Greek, there is actually less difference between what constituted a "hill" or a "mountain".

The city of Rome was (and still is) known as "the city of the seven hills", and so Rome very literally sat on top seven "mountains", or "hills".

It should also be pointed out that the Watchtower Society re-interpret the angel's interpretation. For example, on page 251 of their book, they say:

The seven heads of that ferocious beast stand for seven "mountains," or seven "kings." Both terms are used Scripturally to refer to governmental powers. (Jeremiah 51:24,25; Daniel 2:34,35,44,45) In the Bible, six world powers are mentioned as having an impact on the affairs of God's people: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Of these, five had already come and gone by the time John received Revelation, whereas Rome was still very much a world power. This corresponds well with the words, "five have fallen, one is." But what of "the other" that was due to come?

While their interpretation might fit in with their own doctrines, they have re-interpreted the angel's own interpretation!

The angel says, the seven heads mean seven mountains/hills.

The WT says, the seven heads mean seven mountains which in turn mean seven governmental powers or empires. This additional layer of interpretation is unneccessary, because the angel himself is giving the meaning to John!

So then, hopefully we can see how the WTS use false reasoning to distort the identity of Babylon the Great. (Incidentally, this is not deliberately meant as a "let's bash the WT" session - I'm simply showing how the "false religion" identity proposed by the WT relies on lots of false reasoning.)

The angel also tells us that the seven heads are seven kings. Revelation is recognized to have been written during the reign of "the tyrant", and although many argue this was Domitian, it is Nero that was universally recognized to have been a tyrant - and even contemporary Roman historians called him a beast! And it just so happens that there were five Caesars before him - namely, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius. (Paul appealed to Caesar, because Caesar was the head of the empire that ruled from Rome).

In summary:

- We saw how Ninevah the ancient capital of Assyria was described as a prostitute and how she ensnared nations by her sorcery and prostitution.

- We saw how Tyre was mourned by the merchants of the earth and the captains of the sea upon her demise.

- We saw how the angel gives us the interpretation of Babylon the Great as a CITY, that sits on SEVEN MOUNTAINS, and that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.

- The city of Rome fulfills all the criteria - she is a city, is known as "the city of the seven hills", and in John's day she had a kingdom over the kings of the earth.

Of course, there are many more details given about Babylon the Great, but if you consider them with Rome in mind, you will see a perfect match.

Obviously, Babylon the Great is only destroyed at Har-Magedon, which I don't believe has happened yet

But if Babylon the Great is Rome as I claim, here's a couple of extra thoughts to ponder...

Can you think why it is described as "drunk" with the blood of the holy ones?

Why is it cast into the sea as a great millstone? (Compare Luke 17:1,2 - how could Rome become a "stumbling block")?

Why would Rome be compared to Babylon? What did it do that Babylon did, if anything?

Hi Interpretum. As usual you have inspired other minds to wander—and wonder over things that Roman Catholicism theologians already launched in their preterist views.

One being—they already interpreted Rome as Babylon the Great by referencing its 7 hills, etc. They also said the woman of Rev. 12 gave birth to the papacy, blah, blah, blah ...

Anyway, the RC’s also took exception over Peter’s words when in Babylon that he was really in Rome. Well, they had to do that, didn’t they? After all, how could they fulfill their enthronement of Peter their while warming up to its political elements? Did not Jesus state that upon Peter (the rock) he would build his church?

Well the rest is preterist history too since everything thereafter was fulfilled with reigning popes who continued their spirit inspired political manipulations through history (remember that the Holy Roman Empire officially lasted a millennium in time).

I could go on and on but Solomon already said there’s “nothing new” (Ecclesiastes 1:9), which probably includes our past and present opinions—be mine ever so humble.

Love

sw

Hi sw

Well, I would imagine that Christians were able to deduce that Babylon the Great was Rome well before the Roman Catholic Church system developed in the 4th century. Unfortunately, they were also pretty cautious in identifying it in writing by name, in which they were only following John himself who never actually names her. Considering the treatment of Christians at the hands of their Roman masters, that's not entirely surprising.

Roman Catholics cannot escape identifying Babylon as Rome, but they attempt to apply it to pagan Rome only. Preterists, on the other hand, usually apply the figure of Babylon the Great to Jerusalem.

I do find it ironic, however, that the Roman Catholic Church pronounces its judgments from... well, Rome!

Rome has never yet "fell" in the Babylon the Great sense. The Caesars eventually left, and other nations conquered it, but basically left the Popes in charge, who gradually acted more and more like Caesar, until the Pope in Rome eventually claimed the authority to pluck up kingdoms, and basically to speak on behalf of God.

I do find this amazing turn of history quite fascinating, don't you?

What's amazing is that a lot of Christians are on the lookout for an Antichrist figure to arise, fool the world, and sit in the temple of God.

And yet they overlook the bloke with the Dagon fish-hat, the mouthpiece of Christ, who actually bears the title of God on Earth, and who has fooled the world and sat in the temple of God for over 1,000 years now - mostly from Rome.

Sometimes the elephant in the room gets overlooked... what do you think?

Hi Interpretum, and sometimes the elephant is so large that we forget its lack of fulfillment bespeaks what hasn't yet occurred. The elephant in the WT room was 8 men imprisoned and later released in fulfillment of Babylon's fall. So let's not forget that real fulfillment of prophecy is the least predictable and usually takes us all by surprise. It's the impatient ones that write books and join cults and then get disappointed, disillusioned and finally hit the wall of disbelief.

So I tend to take the middle road and try to stay away from the herds which only chase after what seems to work at the time. The way I see it, most has yet to be fulfilled in reality and won't be fulfilled until the actual second coming of Christ, which to me hasn't yet happened. That's my opinion but I'm always open to suggestions.

sw

May I say that I am not for WT interpretation and I even fight against it. Sorry Interpretum on this one I think they are correct.

The Harlot is female and the beast is male. As one rides the other they can as it were become one, just like a horse and its rider become one. Ancient Babylon was male but had the inner guidance from a female (religion). As an example, who is controlling who, the rider of the horse or the horse?

Another example is the Masons. The Mason Org is not a religion yet it has elements of a Babylonian influence within its structure yet the Masons Org is not a religion. It is a HE not a She. Soon you will see the He attack the SHE. Its all to do with the she getting in the way of the New World Order. The she is stopping their goal from being completed and therefore will have to go.

In my opinion the WT is correct when they say ....This harlot commits fornication with the kings of the earth, and this evidently includes the kings of Rome. Besides, after her destruction, "the kings of the earth" are said to mourn her passing. Therefore, she cannot be a political power.
Revelation - It's Grand Climax At Hand (p235):

Hi AC,

I'm wondering why you feel that Masonry is not a religion. It's based on the Humanist philosophy that the Serpent invented when he said "Ye shall be as gods."

What if: BTG has not yet reached her state in the vision, which is the One-World New Age Religion at the top of the NWO, that calls all the Satanists together for their "Luciferian enlightenment", and this is what the Eighth King destroys once the mask of the MOL is ripped off at the midpoint of the 70th week, when he wipes out his "peace agreement" and demands to be worshipped as God in the flesh? All of Babylon's "sorcery" would no longer be needed to mislead everyone, they would already know that they've been railroaded. That would leave nothing but the Beast and the False Prophet for the final 42 months, who both go down at the return of Jesus. Fortunately the "mark of the Beast" is not implemented until that time, so it seems that those who were misled into the New Age religion would have time to discard it and repent.

http://www.love-the-truth.net/serpent_religion.html


Lou

Jeshurun Religions do the following:
... Practice sacerdotal functions - Masonry does NOT!
... Teach Theology - Masonry does NOT!
... Ordain Clergy - Masonry does NOT!
... Define sin and salvation - Masonry does NOT!
... Perform sacraments - Masonry does NOT!
... Publish or specify a Holy Book - Masonry does NOT!
... Describe or define the Deity - Masonry does NOT!

Hi sw

Forgive me for disagreeing with ya just a wee bit , but if you think back on all the prophecies that we can both agree HAVE been fulfilled.. such as the fall and capture of ancient Babylon (predicted by Isaiah 200 years earlier), or the fall of Jerusalem (predicted by Jesus), they were only of surprise to those were were not "awake".

To the Jews who were captive in Babylon, her sudden downfall was probably less of a surprise. And Jerusalem's capture by the Romans wouldn't have been a surprise to the 1st century Christians - Jesus warned them to flee from it in advance!

The exact nature of the fulfillment may be a surprise, ie. that the Babylonians just happened to be drunk, and left their gates open, when Cyrus fell upon them... but that it would happen was easily discernable to the Jews who were paying attention.

Again, the Jews were "surprised" that Jerusalem and the Temple would be desolated again by the Romans, but Christians were NOT surprised - they just didn't know the exact details of how and when it would happen.

I tend to agree, but with one subtle difference. I think "Babylon" can be identified, and was done so nearly 2,000 years ago. It just so happens that she has been existence since John's day up until now - just as Christ has existed but has not yet returned visibly, "Babylon" has not yet been destroyed.

Maybe there's a simple enough reason for that... which is to show it up for what it is, upon Christ's return!

Hi NewTruth

I can see why you would think it is the USA, and I've also given that viewpoint some consideration. (A while back we had "blindzebra" on the E-Watchman forum tell us it was more specifically New York City.)

However, the USA could never really be "unfaithful" to God since she was never God's country in the first place. While it's true that she was predominantly Christian when she was founded, many of the USA's founders were Masons, and you do not need to be a Christian to be a Mason.

The same logic you apply could equally apply to many of the countries of Europe at their heyday, which were predominantly Christian. If you lived 300 years ago, would you be saying London / England was Babylon - which would have been the dominant city / country at the time?

Besides, the angel explicitly tells us she is a CITY, and the USA is a country - or rather, a collection of states.

Hi Artcritic

May I ask how you would scripturally establish that...

(a) the beast is male,
(b) Babylon was male
© Religion was female.

Again, upon what basis do you say the Masons are a "he" and religion is a "she"? You are saying this, but upon what basis can you attribute a gender to a concept such as Masonry, or religion?

You seem to be quite willing to fit Revelation to your unique viewpoint (which is fine), but if you wish to convince others (I wish you would convince me!) then you will need to present scriptural proof of what you are saying.

I have no doubt that forces in the world wish to create some kind of New World Order. But I have laid out the scriptural argument that Rome is Babylon, so it would be useful if you could lay out the scriptural argument for what you say.

You say they are "correct", but then how do you account for Ninevah? How is it that ancient Ninevah can be political (i.e. the CAPITAL of the Assyrian empire), and yet be described as a prostitute who is "ensnaring nations". (Nahum 3:4)

In other words, in what way can "Babylon" not be a political power? Ninevah was!

Hi Jeshurun

Wow, you're serious, aren't ya?

This is why I have a serious problem with Futurism in general, because it takes all the prophecies (i.e. Daniel, the Olivet prophecy and Revelation) and throws them into a big blender, all to be served up in the final 7 years of the world.

Let me ask you: Do you really believe Jesus has basically snubbed all Christians over the past 2,000 years, just to tell us (in "our day") everything?

OK, that's a loaded question but my point is that, by interpreting all these prophecies to a future 7 years, you're basically saying...

... that when Christians were being persecuted and hounded by the Roman government for some 300 years for refusing to offer incense to Caesar, Christ said NOTHING.

... that when Christians were hounded by the Pope from Rome, in his conquests and Inquisitions and crusades and burnings at the stake, all done in the name of Christ, Christ said NOTHING.

... but apparently when some Antichrist figure creates havoc for 7 years in the future (which is just around the corner), Christ said EVERYTHING - because everything must have a MODERN-DAY meaning, in OUR day, to US, Christ's extra special ones.

Sorry, I don't buy it. The description of the first wild beast fits the Roman empire like a glove (there is NO feature that does not fit), and it is EXACTLY what the early Christians would have needed to get them through.

That doesn't mean we have to go to the other extreme and say that everything has already been fulfilled. Clearly Har-Magedon and Christ's visible return hasn't happened yet... but to attribute everything to a future period is, in my opinion, setting oneself up for massive prophetic confusion.

Think about it, all those marks of the beast in the past, such as offering of incense to Caesar, receiving a certificate to prove that one had done this and therefore being allowed to buy and sell, or the way Rome of the Middle Ages only allowed Catholics to trade with other Catholics... none of that was true, because the mark of the beast is future. Silly early Christians, didn't they understand that Christ gave them the unsealed Revelation just so they could keep it preserved for 2,000 years... until it became applicable?

Sorry, that invalidates Jesus' words...

"Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near." (Rev 22:10)

I may sound blunt here, but to say that Revelation was given to these 1st century Christians, but was only going to be fulfilled some 2,000 years later, makes Jesus a liar.

How plainly can Jesus put it?

Daniel was told to "make secret the words and seal up the book" that he wrote, because "the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end". (Dan 12:4,9) By contrast, Jesus says "do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near."

Ordinarily, this would be plain and simple... but theologians have come up with all kinds of "hoops" to get round the plain meaning of Jesus' statement. ("Well, John is seeing his vision in the 'Lord's day', which is our day, and therefore the appointed time is near in 'our day', not in John's day.)

I will say again... if Revelation is really all about events 2,000 years in John's and his initial audiences future, then we have made Christ out to be a liar.

If, however, the "time of the end" was the time of the end for Daniel's people, the Jews, then Jesus is vindicated, for it was the Roman empire that trampled on Jerusalem (for 42 months, between 70 and 73AD), and it was the Roman empire that went on to persecute Christians viciously for nearly 300 years. Revelation did indeed begin it's fulfillment in the 1st century, as Christ said it would.

Christ also foretold a "second wild beast" that would act as a "false prophet", and lo and behold, out of Rome arose a Papal power that brought fire from heaven, sat amongst kings, spoke in the name of Christ, forced its version of Christianity onto people, and a false Law covenant and tithing, and forbade trade with non-Catholics. It also created an image of the Roman Empire, which it named the "Holy" Roman Empire!

It's a shame these facts of history are irrelevant, since Jesus' unsealed scroll was only for "our day". How silly for earlier Christians to think it might have relevance for them!

(Apologies if I sound a little sarcastic - I don't mean to sound sarcastic, I simply wanted to make the point that, by attributing all the prophecies to the future, we are basically snubbing Christians of the past 2,000 years, and we are making Jesus out to be a liar.)

Hi Brother Interpretum!

I always find your viewpoints to be very interesting, and not at all without merit. In my opinion, God's wisdom in the Bible is much deeper and profound than we sometimes give it credit for. I see no reason why there can't be two applications for many of the prophecies. The Revelation is by no means the only place where it occurs.

For instance, the seven congregations that Jesus addressed. Walter Veith's video (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=To...sitesearch)
leaves no doubt in my mind that these were the seven churches down through the Christian Era, and yet all of these churches have elements present in the modern day church, therefore applications for today.

It's not that I think we Christians living today are any more special, we just happen to be living at the end of the age when Jesus said he would return, and he clearly associated this time with the harvest, or Judgment Day. The coming version of the Roman Empire will not leave a soul on earth unaffected. The old Roman Empire never achieved such global domination. That why the Revelation says that those under the altar who were martyred and crying out for God to take vengeance on those who killed them were told to wait for the rest of their brethren who are about to be killed.

So, why are dual fulfillments out of the question? If the 42 months applies to the first century, how would we know how long we have to endure this beast? How long until "the end"?


Lou

Hi Lou

Well, there are several problems with "dual" fulfillments. For example, take Revelation 12, in which Satan is cast out of heaven.

Was Satan cast out of heaven in the 1st century, and again in the 21st?

Or if we go by the JW "type and anti-type" pattern, then the literal comes first, then the spiritual second (i.e. literal Jerusalem in the 1st century)... which would mean Satan was literally cast out in the 1st century (as the "type").