Paradise Café Discussions A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

2 baptisems

Christian: The Watchtower organization teaches 'two' baptisms. The bible teaches one. Less than 1/2% of the WT followers are baptized INTO Jesus Christ. These few are then told they are IN Christ, and are therefore JUSTIFIED (as righteous) and SANCTIFIED. These, and only these few are allowed to say that they BELONG to Jesus Christ. 991/2% of the rest of them, are told that they do not have these same qualities. These ½ % ers are the only ones (so says the Watchtower) who have the qualifications (mentioned above) to partake of the bread and wine during their Memorial of the Lord’s Supper.

JW: Sir, just ask any one of our 1/2% ers, (those who say they are part of the 144000, mentioned in Rev. 7) what their baptism represented, what it symbolized, and they will answer: "I was baptized into Christ."

Christian: "Well what does the other, (‘your’) baptism represent?"

JW: Sir, just ask any one of the other 99 1/2% of use what their baptism represented. They will 'all' tell you, "My baptism represented a, “dedication” to Jehovah."

Christian: I am not understanding what you just said? "Excuse me." What did you just say about what your/their baptism represents?" "What did it signify?"

JW: My baptism was only a dedication to Jehovah."

Christian: Are you saying you were not baptized into Christ?"

JW: Yes that's right." You see, I do not belong to Jesus Christ, nor does anyone in my family."
You see, If I belonged to Jesus Christ, I would be qualified to partake at the Communion of the Lord's Supper." But you see, I am not in ('union with') Jesus Christ because I was taught that I was not 'baptized into Jesus Christ.' If I were, I would be able to partake at the Communion do the Lord Supper."
I can not partake of the Lord's Supper because I have been taught that I am also not justified as righteous in the eyes of Jehovah, nor am I sanctified."

So no sir, I was not baptized into Jesus Christ, ‘into the body. You see sir in our N.W.T. bible, it says that the (Christian) body (of believers) only represents 144000 people, in which I am not included.'
I and the 991/2% of us are told we are not of the faith because we (‘biblically speaking,’) can not rightly say we belong to Jesus Christ. Only 144000 people are in (union with) Christ Jesus.

Christian: ('Unbelievable.')
Christian: But when I had asked you earlyer if Jesus Christ was your Mediator you told me,"Yes of course!".. Do you still hold that veiw now?

JW: Yes! .. Why?

Christian: Because one of your people who has left your organization after many years started attending the Church I go to and gave me an older WT article that he had somehow never took the time to read it until years later. He gave it to me.
IT makes you a very descitful lyer who is trying to lure me away to 'stranges fires,' or else you have never read it yourself. "You need to tell me now, which is it, so I will know what to tell you next."

JW: "What is it? Let me see."
"In this strict biblical sense, Jesus Christ is the Mediator for only 144000 people 1979 April 1, page 31 WT.

"What!" I have never seen this before!

Christian: "Thank you Jesus." Thank you Father!
Look, would you like to come in for something to drink and perhaps we could go over one or two of the subjects we have been discussing? You seem like a nice person and I would love to be friends with you. 'By the way,' I have a Strongs concordance we could use to look each subject up.

JW: Well 'sure,' why not. You know, I have always had the desire to partake of the Lord as he was symbolically passed before me. I have even really took the time to study these subjects. These subjects are never mentioned in our congregation nor any clear explanations given in any of our 'many' books.
By the way, 'Do you partake?'

Christian: I didn't for years,until Jesus knocked on my door one night. After reading Revelation 3:20, it drew me to John 14:23, which drew me to 1 John 4:4, 15. From there I was drawn to John 17:17-20. A friend then shaired John 6::53, 56. He then assured me with a pasage I will never forget, it was 1 John 3:7, and 1 John 2:29, 1John 5:1,5. No I once did not partake, ...'but I certainly do now.'

I Partake

I am so sorry I have to rush to work, but tonight I will type up my experience. It really was a scales falling from eyes moment, along with alot of humour which surrounds Jehovah and his identical image, Jesus.

see you all in about 10 hours,

vicky

Greetings Disciple!

Isomam is right in all he says to you. Do take it easy....there is no quick way to safely navigate this spiritual "Sargasso sea" with all its seaweed and mire. It took time to program in and it will take time to program out.

What has happened to us is that we have been getting double messages all along and the mind cannot cope with two opposites that come from the same authority -- it must choose between them. That is why so many former WT adherents are surprised to learn the "official" teachings of the WT:
* that Christ is not fully their mediator
* that they are not fully justified
* that they are not fully Christian
* that the bible(particularly the New Testament) was only written for 144,000 "anointed" ones
* that they themselves, as "other sheep" are not in the New Covenant but will be beneficiaries of it in the future, but only through the mediatorship of the "anointed" Christians during the thousand year reign....only "coming to life" at the end of the millennium.

They really did believe they were at least Christian, having had their sins forgiven and that Christ Jesus was their mediator, that is, until they came upon, or someone pointed out, the "official" teachings. They have accepted that they do not partake of the Lord's evening meal because they have believed in the doctrine of the "faithful and discreet slave" as these ones were appointed by Christ to give them "food at the proper time".

The mind needs time and peace to properly process the things that it is taught. That time and peace are taken up by the WT with endless time-counting, WT magazine reading and underlining, meeting preparation and attendance, field service participation to say nothing of keeping our selves, homes and cars clean and shiny.....did I mention child care and training. Oh yes, and we work at jobs to support ourselves and our families! On the surface these things have an appearance of righteousness but in practice they rob the disciple of the time he needs to study God's word and meditate on it.

"Oh but they say: "Read God's Word the bible daily"...it's right on the WT building in Brooklyn!"

But tell the truth, you WT apologists, how many of us put bible-reading first on our "TO-DO" list? If we really had done that we would have seen that Jesus words and the words of the apostles and other Christian writers were written to all believers, not just to 144,000. And had we thought about it long enough, we would have realized that the bible canon was closed in the first century and no one has the right to add to it. So, Rutherford's doctrine of the "great crowd" of "other sheep" is man-made and cannot be supported by scripture. Believers are believers and the bible gives us no "cut-off" time which would create a "two-tiered" system. That dogma is simply a control tactic by a man or men bent on creating a population to rule over. They had determined that Christ was already ruling invisibly in the heavens and they themselves were to be co-rulers so where were the folks who were to be ruled over?

(oops! unavoidably getting into "rant" mode)

I'll leave these thoughts for now but I'd be happy to discuss any or all of these points, and I know that Vicky/man hu would also. We, and others, have researched the New Covenant extensively and feel that this is one of the most important WT errors that needs to be corrected. The sooner the better.

Love, Rez

And it's also done under a full moon. Is it any wonder that jw's perform this observance in connection with a spring fertility equinox rather than the Passover and the grain harvest?

That there Sargasso, all them eels and all those weeds......It is a hot whirlpool, which is now unfortunately filling up with detritus.

So right Rez., they toss two opposite things at you at the same time, and it is that which confuses.