Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

I was originally writing a reply to someone's post, but I thought I'd turn this into a more general discussion.

I notice that many here believe in a Futurist scenario involving a great tribulation, sun and moon darkening, an antichrist figure sitting in a rebuilt Jewish Temple and making (and then breaking) a covenant with the Jews, while the New World Order imposes its chip implants on the world... or variations on the above themes.

Most of these scenarios are built around prophetic passages such as Mathew 24, Luke 21 and most of Revelation.

The problem I have is, to me it now seems pretty clear that the bulk of those prophecies could only be fulfilled in the 1st century.

For example, Jesus said of the "great tribulation", that it would be something that had "not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." In other words, it would be a one-off event. It could not have a type and an anti-type, or a dual fulfillment!

Furthermore, he repeatedly said that the generation to which he preached - "this generation" - was the generation to experience that wrath:

"I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation." (Mathew 23:34-36)

"... these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. Woe to the pregnant woman and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people..." (Luke 21:22,23)

"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (Mathew 24:34)

We know that all of the things Jesus described in Luke 21 and Mathew 24 came about before the destruction of Jerusalem...

- Wars. (In fact, the Roman empire even degenerated into civil war upon the death of Nero in 68AD).

- Famines, earthquakes - read Josephus.

- Good news preached in all inhabited earth. This was confirmed by the apostle Paul.

- Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies. Fulfilled in 66AD.

- Christians to flee. Historically, they fled to Pella.

- Jerusalem trampled. The Romans breached Jerusalem in 70AD, and the Jewish war continued for three and a half years, until Masada was captured in 73AD.

- Jews led into captivity into all the nations. Fuifilled.

- Christ came in a cloud. This probably causes Christians the most difficulty, but we should understand that Jehovah uses this kind of language when he comes against a city. For example, compare Isaiah 66:6 and 66:15,16 to see the language Jehovah used to express his anger against those committing badness in his Temple and in Jerusalem - he would come as a fire, and a storm wind to slay the wicked in the land.

Or compare Joel 2, which describes the army of Chaldeans that God was foretelling He would bring upon the land (which he also promised he would restore and make compensation for) - which would be "a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick gloom." (Joel 2:1,2)

So if we can grasp that Christ came in the clouds upon Jerusalem in 70AD, and gave them plenty of signs, even physical ones in heaven (such as the star shaped as a cross that hung over Jerusalem before its destruction, as recorded by Josephus), then we can accept that Mathew 24 and Luke 21 have been fulfilled, because they were prophecies recorded for the 1st century Jews.

(That is not to say there is not a future revealing - there almost certainly is, as recorded in Revelation 19, which I don't believe is the same thing.)

On the other hand, Revelation was written to 7 congregations in Asia, and were recorded for their benefit.

I won't go into all the evidence here, but I believe it points to it having been written during Nero's reign, sometime in the 60's of the 1st century (Nero started persecuting Christians from 62AD, but died in 68AD, so this is the most likely window for its authorship), but before the destruction of Jerusalem.

Revelation uses symbolic language to describe events leading up to and including the fall of Jerusalem, in chapters 6 to 11 - so that the 1st century Christians could understand the relevance of Jerusalem's fall to God's overall plan - and so that they could understand the connections with the Old Testament prophets.

So, for example, in the "fifth trumpet", John sees the abyss unlocked, and hordes of weird looking locusts emerge, with men's faces but women's hair, stinging those without God's seal.

These could only be understood by the 1st century Christian with a good knowledge of the Scriptures, and contemporary events. Locust armies, for example, were often used in scripture to picture invading armies. (Compare Nahum 3:16, and Joel 1, both of which compare invading armies to locusts.)

And we know that before the final destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, the Idumeans and Zealots fell upon Jerusalem and tortured the remaining population that had not heeded Jesus' command to flee - they even dressed up as women.

So the 1st century Christians in Asia were being given a symbolic vision of events that were taking place in Palestine, and by chapter 12 they were given a more complete picture, showing how Satan and his angels were also involved in this period of "great tribulation".

And by chapter 13, they were helped to see how the secular power, the Roman empire, would become a tool of Satan to persecute and kill them.

So my question to all people on this forum who believe in Futuristic scenarios is... what makes you believe in those scenarios?

We see that Jesus strongly makes clear that the "great tribulation" was a one-off event, that it was foretold upon Jerusalem and upon the generation to which he preached... and yet people still want to apply this to the world in general, and in the future.

And I wrote another thread a while back which demonstrates the strong parallels between Revelation and events from the 1st century onwards, as recorded particularly in Josephus.

So then, given this great body of evidence which suggests that the bulk of the prophecies have already been fulfilled, and are not "repeatable" (either with "dual" fulfillments, or with "type/antitype" scenarios)...

... what makes YOU believe in the Futurist scenario?

(No, I don't believe Christ has been revealed from the heavens yet (as per Revelation 19), but I think the "coming on the clouds" business in the gospels is altogether a different event, and was in reference to his coming against Jerusalem - just in case people think I'm arguing Christ has come and gone, as it were.)

:D

Hi Inter.. Guess I still swing with the witnesses, in the sense that I think it all has minor and a major fulfillment. I know what you are saying about the Great T.. But I still think, it all, maybe even Revelation has a minor and a major fulfillment. Although I don't know enough about history to know this for sure..

What's makes me believe in the future fulfillment?

Because to me, it's all unfolding as we speak.. :cheer:

:hibye::grouphug::coffeeread::heartbeat::drinking:

Hello Brother Interpretum
Brother Newtruth
Yes your scenario is a picture of the downside but lets clarify further what we do believe.
We see a different scenario for our little group in the forum.
We see how one virtue leads to another, as a brother rises higher and higher and finally attains to that height where there abides the crown of virtues,
which is called
‘”Christian Love”‘
Let us visualize our thoughts.
Which is to come for us.
1 After these things I saw, and, look! an opened door in heaven, and the first voice that I heard was as of a trumpet, speaking with me, saying:
“Come on up here, and I shall show you the things that must take place.”
2 After these things I immediately came to be in [the power of the] spirit: and, look! a throne was in its position in heaven, and there is one seated upon the throne.
3 And the one seated is, in appearance, like a jasper stone and a precious red-colored stone, and round about the throne [there is] a rainbow like an emerald in appearance.
4 And round about the throne [there are] twenty-four thrones, and upon these thrones [I saw] seated twenty-four elders dressed in white outer garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.
5 And out of the throne there are proceeding lightnings and voices and thunders; and [there are] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, and these mean the seven spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal.
And in the midst of the throne and around the throne [there are] four living creatures that are full of eyes in front and behind.
7 And the first living creature is like a lion, and the second living creature is like a young bull, and the third living creature has a face like a man’s, and the fourth living creature is like a flying eagle.
8 And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God,
the Almighty,
who was and who is and who is coming.”

The vision of heavenly worship in Revelation 4 contains a description of
twenty-four elders who sit on thrones and then fall before the throne of Jehovah God and cast their crowns before him.
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever,
and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
Other than God himself, only the faithful people of God are described as being seated upon thrones
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.
and it is very likely that the twenty-four elders in chapter 4 are a symbolic representation of the full people of Jehovah God,
twelve representing the tribes of Israel and twelve representing the apostolic foundation of the Christian church. This passage is often interpreted in a woodenly literal way resulting in discussions about the nature of rewards in heaven and whether or not those rewards will be kept or returned to God. Such an interpretation is a distraction from what is really going on here.
It is important to remember that Revelation is a vision and that visions generally involve symbolic imagery.
So, we must ask, what is the imagery involved in this vision?
The twenty-four elders represent the full number of the people of God.
They are casting their crowns before the throne of God.
A crown is a symbol of power and authority.
The one who wears a crown is the one who rules.
So the image here is one where the people of God are yielding power,
authority, and control to God.
The image is a powerful one, and it calls upon each of us to examine our lives to see if we have indeed yielded full control to Jehovah God. Are we allowing Jesus to truly be Lord in every aspect of our lives? Are we allowing Jehovah to be God on his own terms?
Yield to the Lordship of King Jesus Christ in every aspect of life.
Nothing held back.

I believe these things are living in our Kingdom today.
As Brother new truth said “unfolding as we speak”.
Amen in the faith
Brother Cc
Revelation 4:11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God,
to receive the glory and the honor and the power,
because you created all things,
and because of your will they existed and were created.”

Too true, CC.

Better to be a "now-ist." The past is gone and the future is unknown and largely uncontrollable. What you are is what you will be until you change. Is there a better time than now?

Let go of Loserville.

gus

The future by nature is unclear to us as it always will be. And it is true by looking to the past it gives a greater clarity to the picture that is becoming our future.

The bible on it's own can hold great wisdom depending how each soul interprets the contents of its pages. since every soul even those who have transcribed and translated it's pages over the lat few millennium are subject to there own opinion which may or may not be reflected from time to time in it's pages. I view it as a great wealth of information for a spiritual starting point self discovery by the lessons it teaches. Through discovering our selves as we are Made in His Image, we can find our internal link back to our Creator. God conceals himself to the minds of men because only our hearts can find Him.

What I have seen today in the World Stage is the prolonged absence of God, in old times as the Bible relates God was never far in one way or another from his Children, but it is in this time that all we are left with is Hope and Faith that and whatever we find in our heart of hearts that He is still with us. Which almost seems to be a new stage of Life for us as a race in contrast to parts of the Testaments. Almost as if we are a fledgling leaving the nest to learn to fly on our own. But with all the goings on today, all the corruption we do not seem to passing our test.

It is only the individuals, not our society who seem to seek something more. In my heart I feel that God has been absent too long and that whatever the Plan may be it may very well be on its way to coming around again. It's like the build up before a storm, you can feel the pressure change, that's what it feels like now to me.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

This makes it future to me because it says it happens immediately after the Great tribulation that Christ comes on clouds and gathers his chosen ones. Plus ALL the tribes of the earth beat themselves in lamentation. So this seems future because nothing like this happened after Jerusalem fell.

The great apostasy had not occurred yet that Christ & Paul foretold AKA the wheat and the weeds. The man of lawlessness had not came to life even though Paul said it was starting.

2 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?

6 And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. 14 For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

To me the first century Christians would fall asleep in death first then be raised with other Christians in the future together to be with Christ. This gathering as noted above happens Immediately after the GT. So by your version the resurrection has already occurred.


Well thats some to start.:coffeeread:

Chuck

Thanks for putting up this thread Interpretum.

While the expressions "futurism" and "preterism" are not found in the scriptures, perhaps if we're going to use them we need another expression__ "bothism" for those who believe that Jesus words had/have fulfillment both in the first century and in the future. ( hey....and for Gus we can have the term "nowism"...:D)

Personally, I have a "bothist" view.:drinking:

Thanks for those scriptures, Chuck! They are precisely the ones I would use to show that not all the prophetic words of Jesus had fulfillment solely in the first century.

I would also add that the scripture in 1Corinthians 10:11 has always intrigued me. It reads:

"Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived."

On checking the Greek text to be sure, it is apparent that the words "ends" and "systems of things" are in the plural. Some translations drop the plural in one of these words but the Concordant Literal Version retains them both:

"Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." -- 1 Corinthians 10:11 (CLV)

Taken directly from the Greek text this reads:

"these YET typically TOGETHER-STEPS (befalls) to-those (those) it-WAS-WRITten YET TOWARD admonition OF_US INTO WHOM (whom (pl) )THE FINISHES (consumations) OF-THE eons HAS-attainED"

* I've put the alternative readings of words in brackets.

I'm not trying to be "geeky" by putting up all this detail. ... just want to make the point that the words in plural indicate that there is more than one "end" and more than one "system" --or--"eon" involved here.

So...the things that took place in the first century involved the end of the Jewish age...or system/world. The final fulfillment that is yet future will encompass the entire present age. What would we like to call this present age? I don't know. But it seems to me that the scriptures Chuck shared indicate that it is some sort of "age of the nations" or maybe "the Christian age".

In both cases there is a "great tribulation" that is enacted against these "ages" or "systems"....an unrepeatable one that required/requires a "fleeing to safety" if one is to escape the horrors. The end of the Jewish age stands as a testimony and picture of the end of this present age.

That is part of the reason why I believe that there is going to be a grand fulfillment of Jesus' words sometime in the future.

But I'm with Gus here....there's nothing like the present for gettin' things done.:thumbup:

Love, Rez:giverose: