Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

sometimes in history god gives a sentence and then lessens it if his servant [and sometimes even his enemy] asks/begs him.

I just wonder why this didnt happen with sin=death and jesus ransom sacrifice, if is willing to break the rules and lesser penalties and judgement for some people in the OT, why couldnt he just have shown us his grace in this way by forgiving us of our inherent sin, and giving us a second change in paradise without his son having to die the painful death?

it just seems strange from a human standpoint to go through all of this for a technicality of sorts..as if saying 'i have faith in jesus' at the end of time will get a free pass to paradise, and denying jesus will give us the lake of fire. couldnt jehovah just as easily got us to say 'i have faith in you'? or just say, your sins are pardoned/forgiven?

the trinity view makes this situation seem even weirder...its like god had to die for his own rule....god had to die to appease himself...really doesnt make much sense even to human logic and we KNOW gods wisdom and logic is far beyond ours! i doubt he'd have his son die for us unless it was necessary, but as you can see above, it partly seems as if it wasnt necessary... mind you the voluntary-ness of it DOES prove god LOVES us more then any other form of forgiveness would, and its done in a way humans can related better then a general pardon or bending of the rules, but still my point stands....

in the OT god was in the habit of saying im gona kill people! and then someone would say please dont, and he would agree not to. thats just one type of 'waived' situation god has done, many times he didnt punish people to his JUSTIFIED end, many times letting them off the hook completely or giving them some other way to work things out.

So why with the biggest and most painful and concerning issue to god and all of man in the WHOLE world, does god stick to his guns? look at all the nonesense christians went through with the crusades and nonsense trying to MAKE people believe in jesus for their own good, so they could be saved from the lake of fire... when god could of just said, 'well if you say you believe in me its good enough too'. imagine if there was a New Cov opened to every man and woman regardless of religion or believe in a prophet? far less killing would have happened...theres be no division between jews, muslims and christians...

anyways, you can see my train of thought, i dont even totally agree with it, but thought id throw it out there....obviously what god has done is the wisest thing for all involved, but sometimes questions arise in my imperfect brain.

your time to comment!!! :grouphug: :happyheart:


[ps-i personally value and LOVE jesus teachings and parables, updating of the old law, and guidance in every day life....FAR MORE...then the iffy....'i was looking at the blood stained cross of jesus crying' over the top emotional charismatic thing. jesus is my hero, lord and leader and one that i want to be like more then anyone else, id pay anything to be able to have just one conversation with him, have him over for dinner and pick his brain on any and EVERY topic.

dont think i dont appriciate or like him, i just find in my tiny brain i have a hard time balancing my minds attention between jesus or jehovah, i tend to find myself giving it all to jesus or ALL to jehovah, i cant find a good balance and one that i feel guilt free about. in one sense having 2 rather then 1 almost complicates things and makes me wonder why god did it this way since hes a minimalist [for impact and simplicity's sake] in so many other ways [ie. god is LOVE]

i suppose one reason jesus may have been needed is to explain an UNKNOWABLE and UNTANGABLE god, but in that case we cant really ever 'draw close to jehovah' instead we should focus on jesus.... some gnostic-leaning christians felt that was a reason for jesus coming, that he explained the father who no one could EVER begin to know or even describe in even the faintest way. if this is the case then we must assume that yhwh of the OT was STILL just jesus reflecting his father for the Israelites sake.

anyways, enough ranting and mind-spilling! :D

Hi Searcher,

I've thought along the same lines as you. I don't understand why God needed something external (blood) to cover unintentional sin. When I've been sinned against and the person comes to me asking forgiveness, I don't ask him/her to sacrifice their dog. I just do it. I have often wondered what it is about blood that somehow cleanses us from our sins?

Could not God declare our sins forgiven without it? I don't know, I guess however it had to happen that's the way it is and I'm just thankful for it.

Spud

Hebrews 10:29...

"Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt?"

This scripture describes our Lords shed blood is of very much value.

Maybe there is more to it then being forgiven??
we have the grace of God. that is as good as forgiveness.
He allowed his son to die a completely undeserved painful death.
and his blood covers all mankinds sins..  that is alot of sins..

I think you two underestimate how strongly God feels about sin. It isn't just some minor infraction that he can just forgive. God is infinitely just and holy. Any offence against an infinite God is an infinite offence.

We also have to understand what sin is.

The Law is a reflection of the character of God. It is based on God's holiness and reflects His moral purity. Sin is breaking God's law. "Whoever sins is guilty of breaking God's law, because sin is a breaking of the law." - 1 John 3:4, GNT

Our sin seperates us from God. "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." - Isaiah 59:2, NASB

Did you notice that God has "hidden his face" from sinners? Have you ever seen someone so disgusting that you could not bear to look at them? A sinner is so repugnant to God the He can't even bear to look upon them! (cf. Isaiah 57:17; Deut. 31:17-20; Ezekiel 39:23-24,29; Micah 3:4)

Humans became sinners not because they sinned, they sinned because they were sinners. Adam became a sinner because he sinned. We have inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful natures from Adam. Through Adam, the inherent inclination to sin entered the human race and human beings became sinners by nature. So in the end, the whole human race offended God.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23, NASB

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." - Romans 5:12, NASB

Imagine for a second a judge. Before this judge is a child molester with repeated offences. Imagine now if one of your children was mollested by this man. Imagine if the judge then said, "Well, I'm a nice guy. I'm just going to forgive you and let you go. You are pardoned." How would you feel? You would be outraged! The child molestor would be set free, and in all probability would molest again. You would want justice to be done. A judge who pardons law-breakers isn’t a righteous judge. If God did not judge the sinner, then He is not upholding His holiness and he would be allowing sinners to go unpunished. Overlooking sin would make the holy God unjust. And just forgiving the person does not change his nature as a sinner. A fogriven sinner is still a sinner, and he will sin again because he has not had a nature change. When he sins again he is no longer forgiven. It's an infinite loop. The loop has to be broken.

But that's not the end of the story.

We now know why Jesus had to die. When you understand the intensity of sin, you understand the intensity of God's love for us.

"But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight - not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done. For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus." - Romans 3:21-26, NLT

Our salvation comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous--He justifies us.

"Now that we have been put right with God through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. But God has shown us how much he loves us---it was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us! By his blood we are now put right with God; how much more, then, will we be saved by him from God's anger! So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life. And just as all people were made sinners as the result of the disobedience of one man, in the same way they will all be put right with God as the result of the obedience of the one man." - Romans 5:1, 8-9, 18-19, GNT

The holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment of condemnation. God kept His promise as recorded in scripture to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. (Read Isaiah chapter 53).

Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.

Hope that helps,

Matt

Men killed Jesus.

Jehovah just allowed for it. Men have rejected or killed just about anyone who's been sent to help them. Finally...according to history written aforetime, we killed his son. It's in our acquired "nature" not to want to be exposed...showing us up for who we really are. Jesus' death is exactly what we need - if we understand it; but few people do and fewer want to. Most prefer to plug Jesus into some kind of "divine" equation that they can understand, as if he's the perfect "variable." That's distant...and cold.

gus

"No one takes my life away from me. I give it up of my own free will. I have the right to give it up, and I have the right to take it back. This is what my Father has commanded me to do." - John 10:18, GNT

"Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." - Isaiah 53:4-6, NASB

Gus - Jesus did not die to expose who we really are, He died to save us from who we really are. Men did not kill Him, He gave up His life willingly as a sacrifice. If anything killed Him, it was our own sins, which He bore so that we might be reconciled to God.

Thanks,

Matt

BTW...Matthew and I have spoken off-site and have come to the agreement that we were saying the same thing...the differences being a matter of semantics.

It can be done!

gus

Excellent and warranted questions searching!

In short the answer is YES! Otherwise Jehovah would have made other arrangements for our salvation.

An interesting scripture to consider is Romans 3:21-26. Please read it slowly.

Verse 25, "God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to exhibit his own righteousness, because he was forgiving the sins that occured in the past ... " Not only was it necessary for God to offer him, but it was righteous for him to do it. Yes righteous or morally just - the right thing to do!

If it was right for him do offer Jesus, who was God trying to appease with this propitiatory gift? Himself? Who has been subjected to this futilty according to Romans 8? We have! And who did the subjecting? God did!

You hit the nail on the head when you drew attention to the LOVE of God. God, the creator of all, all powerful, almighty, condescended to value our lives above his own and accepted the responsibility for our plight as born sinners.

Is it your fault you were born in sin? No it is not and Jehovah has saved you from the plight - which is exactly what a righteous creator would do. Satan would have us believe Jehovah is unrighteous which is why Jehovah offered Jesus as an exhibit of his righteousness.

this guy seems to think the hebrews stole this idea from the Babylonian's..anyone done any research on this? the whole blood sacrifice thing, and when it first started and why?


btw this quote was taken from the other thread on the two forms of justice in the bible. generous justice and payback justice.

Cain and Abel brought sacrifices to the Lord. Cain's was unacceptable, while Abel's was acceptable because it was the "firstlings of his flock" (Genesis 4:4-5). After the flood receded, Noah sacrificed animals to God. This sacrifice from Noah was an aroma that was soothing to the Lord (Genesis 8:20-21). God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham obeyed God, but just as Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac, God intervened and provided a ram to die in the place of Isaac (Genesis 22:10-13). If you accept all this as historical, Pagan religions learned animal sacrifice from Noah and his sons.

Just my opinion,

Matt

Which came first, some knowledge of God or paganism?

I find it so funny when people accuse Christianity as having incorporated elements of paganism - really, pagan religions may have elements of long ill-remembered knowledge of God.

Imagine it, after the flood, after Babel where God seperated man with languages (and probably the dividing of the continents) bits of knowledge of God mixed with things taken from nature, maybe added to by a few worship-hungry demons......

People get the wrong end of the stick with the Bible in front of them, imagine what happens when you have no bible, just the oral story of your great, great, great grandfather Noah....

Jesus' sacrifice is supernatural, his blood clenses our sin, if God just decided to put the law aside and pardon us, we'd be pardoned, but we wouldn't actually be changed. Christianity, has at its heart, our redemption, the power of God, the power of the gospel, that is real, honest-to-goodness, supernatural power. I don't want to be a forgiven sinner, I want to be a forgiven sinner whose character and heart is in the process of being completely changed by a powerful, loving God who has brought about my redemption and freedom by doing more than changing circumstances. We can never, ever become the people we are born to be by having our circumstances changed, even in a perfect, sin free world, our hearts still need to be completely, supernaturally changed.

There is one other issue that unfortunately has been fudged by the WT society. They say the test in Eden was about sovereignty??? (The words of the power crazed, who only understand power)
The test in Eden was not about sovereignty.

What was satan really saying when he said those words to Eve? "For God knows you are bound to be like God?"
He was saying that Jehovah was deliberately keeping Eve and Adam in an inferior position.

I don't know how many on this board are parents, but a true parent actually rejoices when their child soars; when they achieve more than than the parent; when they are more confident than the parent, more travelled, more sassy (thankfully mine are). Yet, here was satan accusing the supreme parent, the one who wants us to call him 'abba', dad, he was accusing Jehovah of trying to keep us down, holding us back. That is the lie that Eve believed.

So how does the supreme dad answer that?
The Son who has known Jehovah's love for eternity offers to help. Jehovah is willing to make the supreme sacrifice, to demonstrate to us the depth of his love.
Yes there are legal matters that are covered, corresponding ransoms, etc. Yet He could have manufactured a human to do the job, He could have sent an angel.....No He sent the one who would become the total expression of His love.
But the heart of the sacrifice is that it was a sacrifice! Jehovah is willing to sacrifice more than himself...his Son.
And Jesus was willing to sacrifice himself for us, so that we know his love, and to make sure we understand  how much our Father loves us.

For all that are Jehovah's true children, as a true parent, He has no favourites. This is how love is all encompassing

Humbling isn't it?
vicky

Vicky holy spirit has motivated you the write the above . I agree with it 100% .Well written with good true points .