Paradise Café Discussions A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Greetings All!

It's that time of year again and arrangements are being discussed around the "when" and "where" we will be holding the online memorial for this year. Please give us your input.

We have a choice between two places for this very important meeting -- either Hot Conference or Paltalk.

There is also the matter of when. As Angellynn pointed out in another thread, the Witnesses are holding their memorial on March 22 whereas the Bible Students on April 16. She wanted to know "why the difference". To further complicate the issue, the Passover is on the 20th of April. Can we sort this out?

Here is a link to a wonderful presentation of "One Simple Carpenter".

ONE SIMPLE CARPENTER

(hint):The sound starts low and gradually builds so don't adjust your volume too much.

Love, Rez

BTW....here's a link to the "Memorial" thread that Angellynn started. There's a discussion going on there already. Please don't miss it.

MEMORIAL

A point that came up at the thinktank yesterday was that the full moon comes the day before the WT memorial. First time I've ever know that to happen.

March 20 -- Spring equinox
March 21 -- Full Moon
March 22 -- WT memorial

For that reason and also because I no longer feel "locked in" to WT direction, I'm personally favoring the Jewish passover date....but that's just l'il ole me.

Love, Rez

The Jews have been doing this for three and a half thousand years. Maybe they have got it right. Won't be for lack of practice.
Actually I think we should try to gather together often and then memorise the death of Jesus. If there are two or three gathered together he is there.

vicky

Ditto!

Agape Johnny

My vote stands in favor of the Jewish calendar. After all, who would know better?

I'm not sure the Jews currently use the "old Jewish Method", which is placing Nisan 1 at the nearest New Moon to the Spring Equinox.

MEMORIAL DATE FOR 2008

Thursday, March 20, after 6:00 p.m.

The Memorial date this year comes on March 20 after 6:00 p.m. The newing of the moon nearest the vernal equinox, at Jerusalem, occurs at 7:36 p.m. March 7. Accordingly Nisan 1 begins at 6:00 p.m. March 7 and Nisan 14 begins at 6:00 p.m. thirteen days later, or at 6:00 p.m. on March 20. May the Lord bless His consecrated people as we properly prepare ourselves to commemorate Him and His great sacrifice for us (1 Cor. 5: 7, 8)!

Whats interesting is throughout the Bible festivals, celebrations, rememberances etc were usually commanded to be done at a certain time of the year but the Lords evening meal has never had a command from God or Christ as to when to celebrate. We are only told to Keep doing it until Christ arrives in a worthy manner. So as far as what day we do it on, it doesn't seem to matter long as we keep doing it.

It makes sense to do it annual like most things that are celebrated or remembered. So if the date isn't exact I wouldn't worry about it. Lets just make a plan to get together and remember what the Lord has done for us!



1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.


Chuck

Hi all ...

I have been thinking and mulling on this subject since it was brought up a couple of days ago ...

For anyone who loves Christ Jesus (and we know we here all do ... ) remembering the greatest gift we have ever been given ... his willingness to live and then die for us ... so that we can now have the opportunity to have our sins forgiven in a unique and special way that no other sacrifice could do ... in order that we can have everlasting and approved and wonderful relationship with our heavenly Father and Almighty God is something that ALL Christians want to do out of a deep love, respect and grateful heart!!

Now that is a short version of the 'why' ... but what about the 'when' as we are struggling with this year because of the WT not celebrating the memorial on the full moon but rather a day later ...

Many with witness backgrounds will no doubt have a struggle on their hands (somewhat anyway) and so I thought hearing what the watchtower has to say on this matter might help in coming to a decision that will make everyone feel better and not think they are doing something precipitately.

So as to not 'ramble and rattle' on I will only give TWO examples as they seem to fit what we are trying to decide ... any bolding of words will be my own ...




w76 2/1 p. 73 “Keep Doing This in Remembrance of Me”

According to our present method of calculation, the Memorial date approximates the nearest full moon after the spring equinox. For example, in 1975 the Memorial date, as calculated fourteen days from the new moon (nearest the spring equinox) visible in Jerusalem, was Thursday, March 27, after sundown. Appropriately, there was also a full moon on Thursday, March 27, 1975. The date for Memorial in 1976, calculated by our present method, falls on Wednesday, April 14, after sundown. The full moon also occurs on this same date. So if, in the future, any of Jehovah’s people should be out of touch with the governing body, they could determine the Memorial date with fair accuracy from local calendars that show the first full moon after the spring equinox. The celebration would then take place after sundown of the day on which the full moon occurs.


Soooooo ... that seems to be pretty plain to me that the memorial should be celebrated on the FULL MOON ...

Question ... is the full moon this year falling the 14 day period after the new moon ... just curious ...

Now here is an example of how a brother celebrated the memorial who was isolated ... very fitting I'm thinking ...




jv chap. 16 pp. 243-244 Meetings for Worship, Instruction, and Encouragement

In concentration camps during World War II, the Memorial was celebrated, even though doing that could have resulted in severe punishment if the guards found out. When isolated in prison in Communist China from 1958 to 1963 because of his Christian faith, Harold King celebrated the Memorial the best way he could under the circumstances. He later said: “From my prison window I watched the moon grow full near the start of spring. I calculated as carefully as I could the date for the celebration.” He improvised the needed emblems, making a little wine from black currants and using rice, which is unleavened, for the bread. He also said: “I sang and prayed and gave a regular talk for the occasion, just as would be done in any congregation of Jehovah’s people. So I felt that each year I was united with my brothers all over the world on this most important occasion.”


Now to my way of thinking, if we feel that we should do as we always have done according to our present understanding ... then it would seem to me that celebrating on the full moon may be the way to go ... but that is only my own view and not meant to sway or lead anyone in any direction.

I don't know why the society is not celebrating it on the full moon this year, but since it seems in a lot of things they are in spiritual darkness I can sadly say should we be surprised ...

I won't even go into how they are denying most of our brothers the fullest expression of their thankfulness ... but that is another subject altogether!

Hope this helps in helping us reach a decision that everyone can be happy with and agree to with an full heart ... (a lot of FULLS did ya notice ... I thought it kind of 'appropriate' with our FULL MOON 'theme' ...)

Luv to all as always ... BR

PS ... well ... it seems I will have to wait for 20 minutes or so before I can post this ... I can't wait until I have a new(er) computer ... maybe that my problem ...!! This one is sure 'in control' of how much time I spend with you lately ... and I am not liking it one bit let me tell ya ...

I'm having the very same problem BR. It's enough to make a person go coo-coo!

Greetings all.

Exodus 12:5...

"The sheep should prove to be sound, a male, a year old, for YOU. YOU may pick from the young rams or from the goats. And it must continue under safeguard by YOU until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings. And they must take some of the blood and splash it upon the two doorposts and the upper part of the doorway belonging to the houses in which they will eat it."

Numbers 28:16...

“‘And in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, will be Jehovah’s passover."

Ezekiel 45:21...

“‘In the first [month], on the fourteenth day of the month, there should occur for YOU the passover. As a festival for seven days unfermented cakes are what should be eaten."

It seems "Jehovah's passover was always kept on the fourteenth day...regardless of the position of the moon..correct? Why does the "formula" include the full moon?


(Psalm 81: 3..."On the new moon, BLOW the horn;
On the full moon, for the day of our festival." is reference, it seems to Exodus 23:16..."Also, the festival of harvest of the first ripe fruits...")

gogh

Hello Friends,

I thought I would contribute some information on this confusing matter as I understand it:

The way the current Jewish calendar operates is that their months go according to the cycle of the moon and will either be 29 or 30 days in length. Their year is 12 months long. What happens is every so often there needs to be a leap month added to keep the calendar synced up with the 365 1/4 year.

Nisan is the first month of the year.

Adar is the last month of the year.

Since this is a leap year there is an extra month added so you have Adar I and Adar II.

The JW's will be observing the memorial on 15 Adar II (March 22), actually during the festival of Purim.

I have no idea why. Even if they were considering Adar II to be Nisan they should be looking at 14 Adar II (March 21).

If I had to guess - cynically I would suggest they are keeping it close to Easter to boost attendance. But if someone is interested it might be worth a call to New York to find out the real reason.

Anthony/Justin

Gogh,

The Jews didn't maintain calendars but synced their months with the cycle of the moon.

"The lunar month on the Jewish calendar begins when the first sliver of moon becomes visible after the dark of the moon. In ancient times, the new months used to be determined by observation. When people observed the new moon, they would notify the Sanhedrin. When the Sanhedrin heard testimony from two independent, reliable eyewitnesses that the new moon occurred on a certain date, they would declare the rosh chodesh (first of the month) and send out messengers to tell people when the month began."

So although the scriptures is emphasizing the 14th day, it would be the 14th day after the new moon was first visible.

Hope that helps.

Anthony/Justin

Hi Anthony

So great to 'see' you!

Thanks for the clarification re: "...14th day after the new moon was first visible.

One learns something new each day (once and a while, anyway)...doesn't one?....grin.

Christian love and greetings,

gogh

Hello my dear Anthony.
I agree totally.
The Jews had 2 methods of synchronising their calendars.
They used the moon and then the Vernal Equinox. When equinox and full moon become very close, things are hard to give dates. I actually think we should be remembering Christ's death more than once a year, but looking heavenward at a full moon in spring is a heafty reminder of what Jesus went through in Gethsemane. The real name is "Gat Shemanim", which means "oil press".
This I think is important along with crushed wheat and crushed grapes.......bread and wine. Those who partake will likely be crushed.
My family have rejected me because I am no longer a witness, and I would love to associate with others who love Jesus. Suggest a date or many dates and I will follow.
vicky

Other historical tidbits

One of the earliest controversies among Christians was over when the Lord's Supper should be observed. Some kept it annually according to Passover; others shared in it weekly. In Scripture we are simply told to "keep doing this" so of course we have freedom in the matter. I know the preference among those who have associated with JW's to keep it annually.

Even with the Jews, the time for Passover was subject to change from year to year. It was generally kept the first full moon after the Vernal equinox but if the barley harvest in Jerusalem was slow in coming in the priest may delay it two weeks or a month as needed.

Also since the Jewish day goes from sundown to sundown there is also the matter of when passover meal should be eaten, the "morning" Nisan 13/14 or the "evening" of Nisan 14/15? There have been differences in history over this but my understanding is that modern Jews go with the latter.

I know all of this is a bit "technical"; but it does explain a bit of why there is such a swing over observance times. (Though I'm still confused as to why the JW memorial this year isn't even on the full moon.)

anthony/justin