Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I once heard a sister say that she thought that humans after reaching perfection, would be able to go through walls, to walk on water, things that Jesus was able to do. Her reasoning was the bible says there would be no more pain or accidents Revelation (21:4).
EXAMPLE: ONE SLIPS OF A HIGH CLIFF, AND WOULD BE ABLE TO RECOVER IN TIME TO EITHER FLY, LEVITATE, OR FLOAT AS TO NOT SUFFER DEATH.
interesting concept. what you guys think?

Matthew 17:20
..."For truly I say to YOU, If YOU have faith the size of a mustard grain, YOU will say to this mountain, ‘Transfer from here to there,’ and it will transfer, and nothing will be impossible for YOU."

agape,
James

Personally, I'll wait till a more reliable 'heaven' says it's ok. :coffeeread:sw

Why wait?

gus

Well, in the '60's I heard of these guys who took LSD. Suddenly they had faith and jumped off a building. That didn't work so good. :shocked:

sw

I know about that artificial courage, Wick.

There are those who believe that with faith, anything is possible today. Not sure if I'm up to the challenge.

gus

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...1576375070
http://liberalfascism.nationalreview.com/

Scientists Suspect Link Between Pesticides and Type 2 Diabetes

Submitted by kat on January 28, 2008 - 11:48am.

Why did we ever think that a pesticide that poisons bugs wouldn’t be harmful to humans, too? A just-published study from British medical journal the Lancet finds that people whose blood levels contain high levels of a category of pesticides known as POPs (persistent organic pollutants) are at greater risk of developing insulin resistance, which can lead to type 2 diabetes. More research is needed, according to Dr. Oliver Jones, one of the study’s authors:
“Of course correlation does not automatically imply causation. But if there is indeed a link, the health implications could be tremendous. At present there is very limited information. Research into adult onset diabetes currently focuses on genetics and obesity; there has been almost no consideration for the possible influence of environmental factors such as pollution.”
The researchers found that thin people with higher concentrations of POPs in their blood were more likely to get diabetes than overweight people whose POP levels were low. This is huge (as it were); obesity has largely been blamed for the dramatic rise in adult-onset diabetes, which we’ve renamed type 2 diabetes now that it’s showing up in kids, too. If environmental pollution turns out to be a factor, the pesticide industry had better brace itself for a new level of scrutiny.
One of the POPs turning up in our blood is DDT, banned in the seventies. Government authorities continued to allow DDT to be widely used as an agricultural pesticide for decades after evidence that farmers regularly exposed to it suffered all kinds of illnesses, including a high rate of asthma. Unfortunately, POPs linger so long in our environment that DDT and other compounds in this category still find their way into our food chain, and, therefore, our bodies, where they “can persist in body fat for very long periods of time following exposure,” according to Science Daily.
Rachel Carson warned us about DDT back in 1962 in Silent Spring, her ground-breaking (or, rather, earth-saving) exposé on DDT’s destruction of wildlife and potential harm to humans. Carson’s book is largely credited with launching the environmental movement, but sometimes it seems as though we’re just treading water—much of it tainted with PCB’s or agricultural runoff or plastic bags and other man-made debris.
Here we are, forty-five years later, still battling with the residues of these persistent poisons. Makes you wonder about all the chemicals our industries use so freely in the production of our gotta-have consumer goods, including our foods. We need to understand two things, here: (1) a corporation’s primary responsibility is to the health of its bottom line, not the health of the people who buy its products; (2) the government agencies that are supposed to protect American consumers have a long history of favoring business interests over our health and safety.
Our standards are far less stringent than the European Union’s when it comes to the use of many chemicals in consumer goods. Even China—China!—has higher standards for some products than we do, which is why they make a grade of formaldehyde-laced plywood for Home Depot that’s too toxic for their own market.
Organic food sales have skyrocketed in the US in part because so many of us are willing to pay more for produce that’s pesticide-free. Sadly, those who can’t afford to pay more may be paying a price in other ways. Our out-of-whack eco-system raises a simple question: Who you callin’ “pest?” Originally posted on TakePart.com. http://www.eatingliberally.org/story__scientists_suspect_link_between_pesticides_and_type_2_diabetes_jan_28_200 8_id824.

[Is this post not off topic?--Admin team]

There is no point in having super powers without super knowledge.

We as infant humans needed to gain that knowledge.
Blobbing around clueless in the garden of pleasure was only the first step.
Satan threw us infants in the deep end, then smuggly smirked whilst we were drowning in the mire that he had set up.
The mire of knowing the fulness of good and bad.
Many are now calling to him for help as we drown and he equates this with worship.

Shockwave17 you are absolutely right about love. It reminds of what Paul says about it in Corinthians.

It occurs to me that super powers sufficient to avoid accidents that cause death are already available. At least they certainly were when the gifts of the spirit were poured out. Dreams that predict danger certainly happen and save lives. Why levitate after falling off a cliff when a dream could warn one to not go to the cliffs that day in the first place?

Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, Yea twice, though man regardeth it not.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falleth upon men, In slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, And sealeth their instruction,
Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, And hide pride from man;
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, And his life from perishing by the sword.

Job certainly seems to think that dreams from God can save lives and that before the spirit was poured out to all in Pentecost which is an interesting fact in itself.

Its interesting that Paul talks about the gifts and even all knowledge of sacred secrets before he says that they are nothing without love. What also strikes me is that the bible implies that Jesus was not perfect. It says he was perfected by the things he suffered. Yet at the same time before suffering had done its work on Jesus or before he had been perfected he still could walk on water.

Heb 5:8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;
Heb 5:9 and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,

That makes me think that super powers from God are not dependent on being perfect. So perhaps suffering is supposed to happen for humans to learn obedience? So God will protect us from accidents and suffering if its his will or not because both have benefit and God is best placed to judge between suffering and protection. Its interesting that Adam was in a protected garden, (which is where we get the word guard from incidentally) where no accident could affect him. All the animals were tame and soft grass would have protected his naked feet. The rest of the earth was a wilderness on the other hand. Sharp stones and wild animals ect. Adam never suffered while protected and completely failed when tested. Christ in comparison suffered greatly and completely past when tested. I guess the moral here is not to run from pain and challenges because they can build character. All this might be why Jesus expected the disciples to have had faith and peace when it looked like the storm was going to destroy the boat they were in, when Jesus was asleep. The faith they were supposed to have was probably not that they would live at all costs, or that God would definitely control the weather, but that God could do anything and if they lived or died or suffered or were protected it was Gods will. It was faith that Gods will could and would be done in any circumstance in peace or suffering, because Gods knows best.

Actually its just occurred to me that the parallels between the first superman film and Jesus life are striking. Superman had to discover his powers gradually guided by his supernatural father in a wilderness type place of isolation and meditation. Rather like prayer actually or the tent of meeting for Moses which was outside the camp. It all sounds familiar to me! Perhaps that is what we all need to do to discover our own God given super power in following Jesus` example?

Just a few thoughts.

Dear Seraphim,:hibye:

I thought your post totally rocked! :groupwave::groupwave:

Thank you for taking the time to write. I'm just peaking in before another hectic day. I'm praying for a rest, in the next couple of days. At least one day before the children get out for the weekend:pray:. Then I can superpost:cheer:! LOL. Nice to visit with you on Sunday, too.

Dear Freyd,

Its really funny that you dotted a random post on this thread over a year ago. It really made me chuckle this morning!:D

With Sisterly Love, Debbie

Hey, Brian:hibye: Good to see you posting. Some very good points in your offering:thumbsup:

Just a small check-up.:giverose: Even though the words guard and garden look similar they are not related that I know of.

~ taken from the online etymology dictionary, which gives origins of words.

Online Etymology Dictionary

You might also want to check the meaning of the word "perfect" that Paul uses in Hebrews 5:9 in the Greek.

_____Strongs_____

G5048 teleioo tel-i-o'-o

from G5046;

to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in
character):--consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.

As you have noted, it is used in context with verse 8 which concerns his obedience. That is why the same Greek word "teleioo" is used at the time of Jesus death.

"....“It has been accomplished!” and, bowing his head, he delivered up [his] spirit." -- John 19:30

By his obedience to the death Jesus was "completed". Bodily perfection was something that both Adam and Jesus possessed from the start but, of the two, only Jesus maintained his despite his terrible suffering-- to our everlasting gratitude.

Love, Rez:siskiss:

Well thats amazing that garden and guard sound so similar yet apparently are not related. The meanings in Hebrew are uncanny.

Gen 3:24 So he drove outH1644 (H853) the man;H120 and he placedH7931 at the eastH4480 H6924 of the gardenH1588 of EdenH5731 (H853) Cherubims,H3742 and a flamingH3858 swordH2719 which turned every way,H2015 to keepH8104 (H853) the wayH1870 of the treeH6086 of life.H2416

The strongs meaning for garden is:H1588
גּן
gan
gan
From H1598; a garden (as fenced): - garden.

H1598
גּנן
gânan
gaw-nan'
A primitive root; to hedge about, that is, (generally) protect: - defend.

The strongs meaning for guard is: H8104
שׁמר
shâmar
shaw-mar'
A primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), that is, guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc.: - beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).

So two words that sound almost the same in English have almost the same meaning in Hebrew.
An amassing coincidence? Perhaps God is trying to tell us something!

Thanks for pointing out the meaning of perfect. Personally I can see no evidence that Adam was physically perfect any more than us today. He was sinless as Christ was before he fell into sin I agree. The biblical evidence suggests that Adam would not have lived for time indefinite until he was able to eat of the tree of life which it seems he was never permitted to. If such was the case it would suggest that Adam was subject to the normal aging process before the fall. That doesnt fit very well with the watchtowers idea of perfection which I think is floored. I think physical perfection is not a biblical idea other than the symbolism of Jesus being an unblemished lamb, in that he was a whole man and wasn't missing a leg or a hump back or had a massive birthmark on his face ect ect . Physical perfection in this sense I believe was a metaphor for Jesus being sinless. I still think Jesus may have got colds and things though. I think he probably aged in the normal way.

Along the lines of these thoughts it explains why Jesus was a sacrificed unblemished lamb despite being very blemished physically before he died. So I don`t think it can be said that Jesus maintained his bodily perfection because it was the damage to his body that killed him. I think Jesus was the same as us physically. It was spiritually that he was perfect in that he didn't sin.
Also the word perfect is applied to the physical heath of a man after he has been cured by a miracle.

Act 3:16 By faith in His name, His name has made this man strong, whom you see and know. So the faith that comes through Him has given him this perfect health in front of all of you.

The man was obviously not perfect physically in the way the WT teaches about physical perfection, but then again I think its a mistaken teaching.

You get my mind working Sister thats for sure. LOL

Yes humans will have super powers in the new system and they will own perfect pet lions with perfect intellect and they will play perfect games of chess with their pet lion that will end in a perfect draw.

... or maybe not ...

Hi Brian, nice to hear from you. How are things at Don's site? Is he still on the 'death is normal' bandwagon?

Actually, I'm not entirely certain what perfection means from a human prospective since we're living under the death knell of Adam's sin. But methinks there was no special powers in the tree of life just as eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad didn't impart much knowledge, save that just maybe the only knowledge needed was an entirely new vibration, that of guilt, and its consequential sensation that death would come as its result, which it did.

But I'm sure you know as I know that we know really nothing of the rather adroitly compressed account (no real drama leading to how they rationalized consumption of the illegal fruit). Other than that, I'm thankful that our WT mentors at least tackled the blatantly false notion that the tree was so symbolic as to condemn sex. From this of course, came the heavier taxation of penence paid to father-confessors ... well I could go on but I won't.

Affection,

sw

Hi SW. I'm glad to be back. Don hasn't mentioned that one for a while. Shelter is OK it could be better.

Perfection is a difficult question. I don`t know what it is either but I feel it must be to do with love more than anything else because completeness as Res mentioned seems to be tied up with the meaning, which of course takes me instantly in my mind to Paul's words in Corinthians about powers, knowledge and love being the greatest.

I think a good biblical idea for understanding all these difficult questions over Genesis and what perfection might be is to take its metaphor of a child growing to maturity. There are loads of scriptures that talk about babes needing spiritual milk to begin with, then they mature and eventually grow to completeness, even getting to the stage of not needing anyone to teach them any longer. I guess that be would the stage where one acquires the mind of Christ. A mother with a new born knows her child is perfect, but in the sense that she loves it for what it is and its potential. She views it as perfect even if it has some health problem, no question at all. The baby though is not perfect in the biblical sense that it is complete. It has no moral understanding of right and wrong and cannot think for itself. It is totally dependent on the parents. It also hasn't reached it potential or discovered it own unique purpose in life. In all these senses it is not yet in the image of its parents. It doesnt even look like them yet, but like Winston Churchill as with all baby's.

After a while the child gets a little older. It learns to talk and communicate with its parents on a very innocent, naive and basic level, and the parents at this stage have to give the child a few rules for its protection. At the same time the child is able to move around for itself now, even though it falls down allot. It doesnt as yet move forward with understanding. One of the rules from the parents is to not go near the stairs for obvious reasons or to go near the toilet, or the inviting looking bottle of bleach while mummy is cleaning it. The child develops with a few mishaps and accidents along the way. Nothing the parents could not deal with and no injury's mummy couldn't heal. At one point the child was warned not to play in the garden next to pile of rotting wood. It was to much temptation for the kid and it got a splinter. Mother had to get the splinter out but the kid, was scarred of needles. The mother promised an ice cream if the kid cooperated with the miner medical procedure. All was well.

The child obeys all rules and knows that when it disobeys it either comes to harm or gets a loving punishment. It learns that obeying the rules is where it is at. Reward and punishment is the perspective. If it obeys it gets to play in the garden but if not, it get grounded or a smack. The rules are everything and its master. Its a slave to the rules but for good reason. It has a very literalistic,wooden approach to the rules, but the parents take this into consideration when giving instruction for they are aware of the stage of development the child is at. To much to soon would be harmful. There is no discussion from the child as to exceptions to any rule, but as it gets older it starts to try and push the boundaries out of temptation rather than understanding. It certainly doesnt want to clean the toilet with a responsible use of bleach at this stage. That rule still stands without exception, which would be needed at a later stage of development. Its not yet mature enough to be the master of the rules. It knows the rules but doesnt really understand them. The knowledge of good and bad has not yet been learned.

The child continues to develop and goes to school and makes some friends of it own. The parents tell the child to come straight home from school and to not talk to strangers while outside school or home. The child dutifully obeys. The kids new friend he made at school invites him to his house. The child ask`s permission from mum and dad first. Permission granted! The next day the child goes back to his friends house with his friend. The child begins to realize that rules are not rigid things then never adapt to changing circumstances. If they were he could never have visited his new friend. His development continues.

He is a teenager now. He feels freedom beckoning at the door but he not ready for it yet. His relationship with his parents though is much more equal looking. He still obeys them but negotiates extra freedoms. His understanding of rules has gone way beyond a literalistic and wooden one. The Reward and punishment perspective has been replaced with a relationship oriented approach. His relationship with mum and dad and with rules is now two way. He has now become able to employ rules rather then to be employed by them. His understanding of good and bad has started in earnest and is starting to get a real feel for it. Mum and dad are happy to grant more freedom as their son demonstrates an understanding of the rules. They no longer have to explain every specific rule and specific circumstance. As freedom increases the possible circumstances of life become to many to number so this understanding they have built into their son is essential if he is to remain safe in the big open wilderness of the world. The small childhood garden with its simple rules is almost a distant memory now. The nursery is being left behind. Mum and dad even feel comfortable to let him make some of his own mistakes, so that he will listen to the voice of his own experience in life.

The child has now left school and graduated. He still lives at home and obeys mum and dad. However he has met a girl. They are in love. The day has come for him to leave home and marry the girl. He is now of age. He has become just like his mum and dad. He is the image of his parents along with his new wife. He now knows how, why and when to make his own rules. He has become lord of the law. Freedom now is as limited as his mastership of the knowledge of good and bad. He is a man. He has the mind of his parents and knows exactly what they would do in any given situation. He is complete. He can take into account new circumstances with ease. He now knows that love of others and a healthy love of himself is the corner stone of his freedom. Any rule or law he makes for himself and his new family he subjects to this understanding so that he will always hit the bullseye and succeed in life. He will always remember his parents with gratitude for doing the same and will always obey them. The only thought he now has, as he ponders this, is that he now always seems to agree with his parents anyway, and hasn't had to obey them in years. He and them always reach the same conclusions and always agree. The student has become like the teacher. He has become fully competent and completely equipt for every good work in life.

He was the youngest child. His dad told him that he now has the mind in him that was in his brother who is now the president of the country. His dad goes to bless him and tell him that every stage of his development from a baby was a necessary step in reaching his potential which turns out to be unlimited in future scope. He now needs no one to be teaching him but now the opposite. He was served but now will start to serve others. He gets a job as a teacher because his wife is pregnant and a whole new generation is on its way. He sacrifices himself for other and realizes it is not about himself any longer but others. He is now completely complete. He is perfect but always was to his mum and dad. They saw what he would become before he was even conceived. All his parts were down in writing in their hearts. Through love,care and discipline the vision of his parents became shaped into reality.

I think this might be what Genesis, the law, the bible means when it talks about perfection.