Paradise Café Discussions A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

JESUS WHILE ON EARTH, ALWAYS STATED THAT HIS FATHER WAS SUPERIOR. YET THE TRINITY SEEMS TO BE A POPULAR BELIEF AMONG FORMER BETHELITES. MOST EX JW'S STAY BEING UNITARIANS, YET I SEE LOTS OF BETHELITES TAKE IN THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. SOME BECOME BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS

I PERSONALLY AM UNITARIAN. SIR ISAAC NEWTON ALSO REJECTED THE TRINITY. I DO BELIEVE THAT THE WATCHTOWER HAS DONE A DISERVICE TO JESUS OUR LORD. JESUS IS THE MAIN THEME OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, AND JEHOVAH HAS GIVEN ALL HUMANS PERMISSION TO HONOR HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. {JOHN 5:23}
THE WATCHTOWER WANTS TOTAL CONTROL, SO I SEE A CORRELATION, AND A REASON AS TO WHY BETHELITES MIGHT WANT TO GO TOTALLY AGAINST SOUND DOCTINE. THE WATCHTOWER WILL DO THAT TO PEOPLE.

You'll have to give a few verses if you state that something as wild as " Jesus always stated his father was Superior "


BB

wild verses? the father is greater than i am, ummm only God is good .....theres no point in arguing this with someone who has already made up their mind. Id say its because the majority of bethelites are followers

Well...couldn't tell ya for sure, GIL. Who's done the studies? I know there's a couple of former bethelites who have flipped on the trinity thing; but I don't know that "most" have. Perhaps the answer is to be found in a need to be churchy - institutionalized, so to speak. There aren't a lot of unitarian churches that come beggin'...and a ton of trinitarians who'd give you the shirt off their back to save your immortal soul.



gus

Good point gus. And being so "institutionalized" as a Bethelite, there's not a lot of room for anything but collective approval. The constant reduction of self for the sake of the institution makes one yearn to be acknowledged for original thought and/or being independently praised—something sadly missing within the present arrangement and heirarchy.

I know one ex-bethelite who married, had kids and then ran off to become a polygamist and Indian shaman. I truly believe that anyone so confined feels so disillusioned upon discovering their betrayal, he is repulsed by the mere reminder of what he once believed. Trinity thinking spurns as inferior any belief less than its sacred godhead. It's a "My-mind's-made-up-don't-confuse-me-with-the-facts" syndrome. That's my observation .

sw

Holy smokes!

You hung with a rough crowd, Wick!

My brother found his niche at Calvary Chapel. The trinity thing is something we've never seemed to get past (even though CC is non-denominational)...and everything else has to viewed through that lens. So much so that if you don't subscribe to the trinity idea, you can't possibly be Christian. We don't have a lot to talk about on that level. He's a good man though. One day, it'll all be straightened out.

gus

the father is greater than i am

(This a comparison of Positions while on earth He was in a lower position than the father.

( Heb 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands. )

If the text used the word better it would be a comparison of natures and that would make the Father superior to the Son.

The Prime Minister of our country can say he is greater than I am because he is in a greater position than I but he cannot say he is better than I am, in our nature we are the same.

only God is good

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd
Ps 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd;

If you have time listen to a former Bethel decision maker Bill Cetnar

http://www.mmoutreach.org/audio_jw.htm

also Bethel Spanish translators Cris and Norma Sanchez as well as
Ed Dunlop who was a former registrar for the Gilead School, Randall Watters and Robert Sullivan share about the 1980 shakeup at Bethel

http://www.jwinfoline.com/Page/audio.htm

Yep. There isn't a shortage of people who've been shafted by the watchtower, particularly Ed Dunlap. After reading the 1000th account (like most people here have), I think the average person gets the picture. No need to try and convince us, BB.

gus

The Scriptures show the subordinate position carries on in heaven and is an essential and important feature in God's Plan-
1Cor.15:27,28
Phil.2:5-11
Rev.4;5

While Scripture uses the word hupotasso it also declares that Christ's glory is in ascension with greater glory to come as he carries out his Father's will. Even the false doctrine of the Western Trinity recognizes the eternal subordination of the Son to the Father.

In Christ

designs

Designs, I'm in full agreement on his subordinate postion within the Godhead. Here is a comment on verse 28 by John MacArthur

Christ will continue to rule because his reign is Eternal ( Rev 11:5),but he will reign in is former,full, and glorious place within the Trinity, subject to God in the way Eternally designed for him in full Trinitarian glory.

Phil 2: 5-11 We have him humbling himself, laying aside the independant use of his divine attributes and becoming a man. He didn't have to stive to be equal with God because he was God. He came as a servant to serve by giving his mortal life for your sins and mine.After which the God/man was exalted and given a name that is above every name, that the entire intelligent universewill worship Jesus Christ as Lord ( Ps 2)

( angels in Heaven Rev 4:2-9 ,the spirits of the redeemed Rev 4:10-11,obedient believers on earth Rom 10:9,disobedient rebels on earth 2 thess 1:7-9,demons and all lost humanity 1 Pet 3:18-22 )

" In Christ "
BB

Hi Bethelboy

Re: "...place within the Trinity, subject to God in the way Eternally designed for him in full Trinitarian glory."

Please cease and desist....imo.

gogh

Gogh, The Quote is straight out of a John MacArthur Study Bible.

BB

Then I'd have to ask what kind of trinitarian are you? There are many. The Godhead, three separate beings/one in purpose, but not necessarily co-equal, is generally credited to the Mormon faith. It's hard to keep track of all the ways that people try to make 1+1+1=1. The Catholics used to tell me that it's a divine mystery.

gus

The essential difference is in recognizing the distinction of Beings.
The Western Trinity proclaims the three persons are one single substance (HOMOOUSIANISM) whereas Scripture describes two Beings, one like the other (HOMOIOUSIANISM) Hebrews 1:3.

Professor MacArthur makes some additions to the text in Philippians.
All here bow and confess Jesus as their Lord to the glory of God the Father as the text proscribes.

Revelation chapters 4 and 5 describe the all encompassing authority that God the Father has placed his Son in. The Jerusalem Bible captions this as: 'God entrusts the future of the world to the Lamb'.

In Christ

designs

Hi Gus, Here is probably the best definition by Walter Martin.

The late Dr. Walter Martin, probably the foremost expert on the cults in the world, and a renowned bible scholar, gives this true definition of the Trinity,

"Within the unity of the One God there are three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these three share the same Nature and attributes. In effect then, the three Persons are the One God."

Equal in purpose not at all. A better word than trinity would be Triunity 3 working in unity.

The Father 100% Spirit (also he can't be a Father without children.)

The Son the word of God who became flesh for us to be redeemed so that we can be called the Children of God.

The Holy Spirit 100% Spirit

Here is what the Early church proclaimed in 1 Tim 3:16

The Trinity is a complex doctrine, and there is the aspect of mystery surrounding it. The early church confessed this fact in 1 Timothy 3:16. We might call this scripture an "early creed" of the church. It states,

"And by common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: God who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, Taken up in glory." Yes, "great is the mystery of godliness".

This scripture is telling us that we cannot completely understand the infinite God with our finite minds. We will get into trouble if we try to make God "reasonable", or "easily understood". God is complex. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts as the prophet pointed out in Isaiah 55: 9. Nevertheless, God has made a revelation of Himself in the Bible, which we can accept or reject as we please.

Notice that immediately following the confession by the early church that "great is the mystery of godliness", the very next scripture continues,

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".

1x1x1=1 You believe if I tell you that water,ice and steam are all H2O

BB