Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

A poster on here, said something i agree with, to paraphrase it he said 'sometimes its good to put down the bible and go out and observe nature to get understand god'

i was thinking, what a great change of pace that would be, specially living in a beautiful part of the world...

then as my mind wandered, i imagined the seemingly unjust things that happen in nature that would lead me to into confusion, as to the type of creator we have...

ill give you an example...

a predator animals, see's an aged mother animal with a new liter of babies, when she strays off from her young to look for some food, the predator sneaks up behind her, and devours her.... now its not exactly pleasant to be eaten alive im assuming, and now her babies are left with no mother, no source of food, and now are in a strange world left as food for other predators..

how does this reflect our creators qualities? what qualities does it make us think of, love, justice, etc? somewhere along the line creation must have got PERVERTED somehow [by another 'god'?], and yet we know the 'cycle of life' requires some animals to eat others flesh..which will no doubt cause pain and hardship... even if as 'kings of the earth'...us...human kind...dont need to worry bout being eaten by animals much anymore, seeing what i described can be traumatizing and confusing to our minds

what do you do with these kind of things? of course there are many beautiful things to observe in this world, but there are also many unjust-unloving things to see too...how can a god that IS love, have put a 'life cycle' in the animal kingdom in existance that seems unjust to us, and requires viciousness and unfairness, similar to what we see now in human life...its great to know some day humans will stop fighting but wont it forever haunt us to still see the animal kingdom doing what we 'used' to do?

did satan somehow 'posess' the entire 'cycle of life' in the animal kingdom? they never sinned tho, so that theory falls short....it seems we are stuck with the way animals behave, maybe as a constant reminder of how we SHOULDNT be, but that doesnt sit well either, since its so sad to see. will god recreate how animals work entirely in the new system? start again from scratch, have new animals? i cant imagine sea creatures, eating anything BUT other forms of flesh that they can find down there...who knows...

the scripture that says 'the former things will not come to mind' in the new system sounds sweet, but it would require the cycle of life that seems to have been here since even before man was around to be 'reconfigured' and for the bible ITSELF to be done away with, since it contains much of the violent and disgusting history of mankind as well.... maybe well get a NEW law, in our hearts ONLY, nothing written, wouldnt that be nice...kinda like what jesus already told us we should be aiming for NOW...

I think nature is supposed to help us discern spiritual things in advance of us becoming spiritual or becoming like God Jehovah our Father. Nature provides us with great parallels and parables. (Satan & Serpent, Sheep & Christians). Look at it this way:
a minority of Fallen angels are destroying mankind. In parrelel a minority of mankind are destroying nature. Some vicious things in nature are required to show us what is wrong with what we CAN't see. If we understand what we see (nature) we can also understand what we can't see (heaven/angels/demons/god).
Nature isnt just a pretty god-trick to entertain us.

and to get off topic
Once a man helped an emperor moth get out of its cocoon. That moth went through life crippled because unlike other moths that fight their way out of their cocoon on their own, this moth had not trained its muscles to be capable of surviving.
Should god help us with all our problems?

If you look a horse in the eyes while walking to it it will be scared of you because its instinct tells it that only predators look it in the eyes while walking to it. This is one detail of animal training.
Is it always a good idea to focus on a person while getting close to them?

The butterfly can flap its wings open, some predators are scared off very quickly because the wings often look like big eyes. This allows the butterfly to get away safely.
Azians took an example in this with their fireworks. They used fireworks to scare armies off. They were thought to be god's because of the blasts and the light.

Sheep are naturally peacefull, goats on the other hand tend to quarrel among eachother.
True worshippers are like sheep, false like the goats.

So if they say, 'Run to the country and see him arrive!' or, 'Quick, get downtown, see him come!' don't give them the time of day. Whenever you see crowds gathering, think of carrion vultures circling, moving in, hovering over a rotting carcass. You can be quite sure that it's not the living Son of Man pulling in those crowds.
Vultures circle over near dead animals (and then they eat it).
Do you know what vultures are? We can recognize false signs much like this. Whereever there is a carcass, there are bound to be vultures.

Biologists & nature are among the best qualified to discern divine truth to us.

Yours truly

I like it, spiceant :thumbup:

Searcher, you raise a good point, but I think the animal kingdom was affected by Adam's sin.

For instance, even the animals lost paradise. True, they weren't ejected from it in the same way as Adam and Eve, but it was still a loss for them too.

True, there is cruelty in the animal kingdom, but there is cruelty in the human kingdom as well. It is Satan's system - why would that not have an effect on animals as well?

In my opinion, Jehovah knew that there would be a fall (that is a byproduct of freedom of choice), and therefore prepared in advance for that time - hence snake's venom, etc.

Otherwise, smaller animals would eventually be obliterated by the larger ones. By giving different creatures different defense mechanisms, he gave them a better chance of survival through the dark time following the fall, until the restoration of all things.

wow good post SA

so im assuming its of your believe that when this age ends, we will go to heaven, and the earth will be 'restarted', done away with? or what? cause my concerns are largely related to how LONG the animal kingdom will continue as it does [and how long has it been like this, since before humans? or only since we sinned, if before the fall, then it seems we were destined to fall]. for the time being, your right, it can teach us some amazing lessons, yet in the future, we will all know god and the problem of evil will already be out of the way..thus making its once relevant use, done away with... so then what might happen? will god still have the animal world there to 'amuse us' in a less disturbing way? should he reconstruct the food chain, etc?

i guess the answer is dont worry about it, worry about whats going on here and now...:thinking:

:clap: Hey Bro Searcher! :clap:

Hows it mate!! Seems you have a Pentium 8 in your brain -- it keeps firing thoughts and questions, which is good!

I agree with Bro Interpretum, in that the animal kingdom was affected by the first false intention. Looking at existence within the created spectrum as a whole, I like to see everything as an expression of Thought Energy, either in animate or inanimate form. Thought Energy is infinite in both its expressive potential and its manifestation. Thought Energy can be manipulated and also reflects the intentions of the consciousness it is connected to e.g a mind (the Kingdom of which the mind resides is congruent to the polarity the mind exists -- Light or Darkness).

OK! Looking at nature -- Jehovah Gods animate and inanimate creation -- and looking at human creation -- mans inanimate creation. Mans creation is inanimate, because only Jehovah God is able to manifest creation, with a connection to the source of His Dynamic Creative Energy! The mind of man actuates his creation, and the mind of man is subject to the anomaly of sin and free will.

Everything in the created spectrum is a form of Energy -- or Thought, as I have come to see it. As such, Thought is bound in its expression and existence with relationships -- dynamics of Thought -- which all flow according the respective Law which governs its expression. Alloy that, with Thought being able to be manipulated and reflect the intentions of the consciousness it is connected to, add in Genesis 3 and you have what is the basic first cause of what we live now!

Taking a break and looking at nature, can provide many great oppourtunities to grow and to 'think outside the box' -- especially if the TV screen happens to be where we spend any amount of time. When looking at anything in nature or otherwise, that seems out of whack with "God is Love" -- we should realy ask ourselves some questions -->

1. What do I believe Love to mean?

2. What does Love actually mean?


Everything that is darkness can be traced down to a first cause. By seeing Genesis 3 as being the formation of the first cause, and the fruition of what we live now -- we are able to be objective with regards everything we see, and not become overwhelmed of thoughts pertaining the fantasy of there being anything Un-Just, Un-Loving, Un-anything good, about our Father Jehovah God!

When looking at anything you perceive to be dark -- especially to Jehovahs standards -- always remember the first cause of darkness. Then pray to Jehovah to show you what Love actually is! (Matthew 21:22)

:peace: << :bow: JEHOVAH GOD!! :bow: >> :peace:

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :cheer::cheer::cheer:

Welcome to the forum! :hibye:

:clap: Hey Bro Spiceant!! :clap:


:thumbsup: Thank you for your thoughts! You highlight the flow dynamics of Thought on form and formless levels. All form has a formless resonance. (Matthew 6:14-15, Galatians 6:7). Dynamics of Thought can be applied to any situation -- thank you for a wider peripheral on the subject! Much appreciated! :thumbsup:

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :cheer::cheer::cheer:

PS -- You are a cool dude Bro Spiceant! En garde! :dueling: >> :friends:

In my view it is a mistake to apply animal standards to human standards with out qualification. The apostle Paul used nature as a guide about things. For instance regarding woman’s hair. This is fine as far as it goes. However the earth has suffered two mass extinction events before man was ever created. Does this show that God is cruel?
It does if we apply human standards to animals blindly. Animals were created for man so that we could exist on a planet that would allow us to live on a sustainable planet. If animals didn’t eat each other or do what they normally do then our human life would not be possible on this earth.
We might personally find what happens in nature or more specifically in the animal kingdom morally objectionable but that is because animals were not meant to be subject to morals. In the new earth animals will still kill each other. The difference is that they will not kill us. However after the thousand years is over animals might be more peaceful by virtue of the whole earth being a garden, which has the original Hebrew meaning of protection. The word garden being similar to the word guardian because both have the same root. The garden of Eden was not just a garden but was a protected place . To illustrate Adam and Eve could walk around without cutting their feet to ribbons on sharp rocks which they could not do outside of Eden . The animals also would be more at peace with each other because of the human influence on them .
In the future animals will likely be more at peace but not ever at peace in the way humans understand it. The fact is that animals do not have language so don’t understand death and that it means the end of life. Nor do they expect to live forever or even understand what that would mean. So an animal dies! Yes it is sad for us but not to them in the same way. It only reflects badly on Jehovah if misunderstand his mind on the matter .

Nature Laughs Last

:rofl: