Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Ecclesiastes 9 NWT
5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all"

So is that the truth, the 'final answer'?

If you hop over to Job 14

Job 14 (New International Version)
10 But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.

11 As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,

12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

13 "If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!

14 If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal [c] to come.

So we are in the right to answer this question

OK check out a little later.

"21 If his sons are honored, he does not know it;
if they are brought low, he does not see it."

Sounds just like Ec 5:9 right?

OK now read the very next verse.

"22 He feels but the pain of his own body
and mourns only for himself."

Doesn't sound like he has ceased to exist very much does it?

Interesting take from someone over at JWD. Any thoughts?

Well these dead guys appear to talk Should we tell them sssssssssssssssssh go back to sleep

Matthew 17 1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Isaiah 14: 9-11
God said to the King of Babylon: "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; ... "They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. 'Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol"

1 Sam 28 1-20
"Now Samuel was dead ... Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." ... Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me." When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice... And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see an old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel ... Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me ... therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do." And Samuel said, tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the Lord will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!"


Luke 16 19-31
"Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me."

Rev 6 9-11
"I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God ... and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood ... And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer"

LUKE 20:37-38
37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

1) You have to be careful about taking poetry too literally.
2) You just read two other verses which testified the exact opposite. When in doubt, go with the bulk of Scripture over the exception.

But no single Scripture should be an exception: just a seeming one.
I think this passage is Job being poetic. I mean, Solomon says very clearly that "the dead know nothing" (which will be applicable to the issue of Samuel being risen(???really?) from the dead), so he's being poetic (which Job is full of). The word for "pain" used there is a sorrowful pain, not physical. And the word for "mourn" means "lament". If you've just been humiliated by God and you're dead, then it doesn't matter what your decendents are doing: you've been "brought low" by the Almighty.

That's how I interpret it. How else can you without completely ignoring other Scripture?

Abel's blood "called out" to God from the ground.

Not exactly literal. :P

Um, resurrected, maybe? The Watchtower says that it was JUST a vision, but I disagree: I think Jude alludes to the fact that Moses was resurrected already, and Elijah went in a strange enough way to be a serious exception to the "rest until resurrection" rule that dominates Scripture.

God didn't *literally* say this to the King of Babylon, just like those dead don't *literally* say it to the King either.
...unless you believe in zombies. o.o You think they reanimated and spoke this message to the king???

Okay, I'm sorry to be blunt, but I find it a little insulting to God that you'd think He'd allow a pagan witch to resurrect one of God's prophets. Demons are smart enough to know how to be effectively deceitful.

x_x
How many other parables do you take literally?
Let Scripture interpret Scripture, and your studies will go far. :)

How many VISIONS do you take literally?
Let Scripture interpret Scripture, and your studies will go far.

Intersting how it says "for all live TO Him" and not "for all live".
;) Just a thought.

I apologize.

Butxifxnot, Do you believe in the Sovereignty of God?

He allowed Samuel to speak for a couple reasons. 1. To scare the daylights out of that fraud of a medium.:D 2. To bring a message from God to Saul

." And Samuel said, tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the Lord will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!" Read Chapter 31 and see it come true.

As for Luke 16 that is your opinion below is a quote from the Scofield
reference notes as well as a link to the page

http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.c...hapter=016

I forgot What I most look forawrd to !!!!

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. GOT IT!!!
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Well vision or not I don't see any visions of sleeping souls

How do you know it was Samuel? Witches call up familiar spirits: it's nothing new for a demon to impersonate someone else.
You are assuming that it was actually Samuel. I never asked why Samuel would come back from the dead: I asked why you would assume God would allow a woman to exercise power only He has.

What is my opinion?? I never said anything! I asked "how many other parables do you take literally?"

Show me a case in which a parable was meant to be taken literally (names or not). Please don't let commentaries do your thinking for you. :)
If I said "Alice was walking in wonderland one day..." you would know that I'm speaking figuratively.
If Jesus was being literal, then Abraham has a big bosom for every person to be taken to it.

Yep.
Have you ever had a dreamless sleep?
It's like you're laying in bed, and all of a sudden, it's morning.
That's what this passage means "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." The dead "know nothing", just like you will know nothing while sleeping tonight (unless you're dreaming): death is called "sleep" MANY times in the Bible.

No, no; no copouts allowed. ;) The Bible says waaay too many times that those who are dead are "sleeping" for you to be able to say "I don't see any sleeping souls."
Please answer my question: when was a vision in the Bible ever literal?

[/quote]

That it is a parable is your opinion mine is that it is not.
However if it is a parable what is it teaching? That there is a great gulf between the just and the unjust, that no one can go from the one place to the other, and that you must repent in this life ( no second chances in the life after. Also the rich man and dead man seems to be talking an awful lot


[/quote]How do you know it was Samuel? Witches call up familiar spirits: it's nothing new for a demon to impersonate someone else.
You are assuming that it was actually Samuel. I never asked why Samuel would come back from the dead: I asked why you would assume God would allow a woman to exercise power only He has.[/quote]

The woman didn't do a thing ( She like all the others are fakes )
it was GOD that made it happen there is a message given to Saul
" Tomorrow you and your Son's will be with me and in cahpter 31 that is just what happened. ( samuel tells him what the LORD will do to Him and his Son's and Israel. )

Yes the Bible does refer to death as sleep in many places and that refers to the state of the body " The Tent " temporary dwelling place for the soul and Spirit.


THE SOUL

What, then is the Soul? The soul is NOT the body, nor the spirit, but is everything else these two are not. We will define the spirit next, but in brief, the soul is our intellect, our personality, in fact, our identity. The first mention of the soul in the Bible is in Genesis 2:7, where is is recorded that Adam BECAME a living soul. Notice that Adam did not RECEIVE a soul, Adam became a soul. Many Bible translations interchange the words "soul", "person", and "life", and this is correct since a soul can touch, according to Leviticus 5:2, a soul can commit a sin, according to Leviticus 5:15, and a soul can also eat according to Leviticus 7:18. Psalms 42:2 records that our soul can "thirst for God".


Genesis 35:18 "it came about as her soul was departing, for she died, that she called him..."Benjamin".

1 kings 17: 20 Then he cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?” 21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” 22 Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.


Some have attempted to prove from scripture that the soul goes out to annihilation. This is false.They use for their so-called Scriptural proof the scripture in Ezekiel 18:4, which reads, "The soul who sins will die". The word "die" in the Bible does not signify annihilation as the some teach, or so-called "soul sleep" in an unconscious state.

Following our fleshly death and the going out of our soul, we will spend a conscious eternity in one of two places, just as Jesus taught. We go to the grave. Proverbs 23:14 tells us if we discipline our children properly, we will deliver their soul from Sheol or the grave. Prophetically it was said of Jesus in Psalms 16:10

"For Thou will not abandon my soul to Sheol; neither wilt Thou allow thy Holy One to undergo decay".

So, the grave is not the end, there is yet a deliverance out of it.

TWO DESTINATIONS FOR THE SOUL

The soul departing for Sheol (Hades) could end up finally in the dreadful Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades (Sheol, grave), gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every one of them according to their deeds."(Revelation 20:13)

The other, much better alternative destination is in heaven. Revelation 6:9 records this scene in heaven.

"And when He broke the fifth seal I saw underneath the altar the SOULS of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained."

Notice, please, that here were persons who had been SLAIN, that is, their bodies had been killed, and yet their souls were safe in heaven. Some groups teach that the soul is the body and suffers death. Not so, and not true. Matthew 10:28 reads,

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell".

ETERNAL DESTINATIONS

It is just as Jesus said of the two classes, first of the goats or the unbelieving wicked, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life". (Matthew 25:46).

Our soul will spend eternity somewhere. Have you decided where yours will reside?
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WHAT IS THE SPIRIT OF MAN?

What now is the SPIRIT that the Bible talks about, and in fact gives prominence to over the soul and body? We should be spirit, soul, and body in that order according to 1 Thess. 5:23.

IS THE SPIRIT "BREATH"?

First off, the teaching of some is that our spirit is merely our breath is ridiculous, and not borne out by a careful examination of Scriptures. What does the Bible teach concerning the spirit of man?

Zechariah 12:1 says this:

"Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him..."

Man does not BECOME a spirit, but HAS a spirit within him. Isaiah 26:9 says this:

"...at night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently".

Our spirit is NOT breath, for the spirit of man is capable of thought. 1 Corinthians 2:11 says,

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him?"

Our spirit can also "perceive" just as Mark 2:8 says of Jesus,

"and immediately Jesus, perceiving in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?"

Ephesians suggests that we renew not only our minds, but our spirits. Clearly, our spirit within us is NOT our breath.

ARE SPIRIT AND SOUL THE SAME?

The spirit of man is the same as the soul in some respects. We are taught in James 2:26 that our body is dead without the spirit. Furthermore, when our spirit returns, our bodies come alive again. (Luke 8:54,55). Nowhere in Scripture does it speak of the spirit being destroyed or dying as it does the soul. What then happens to the spirit within us at our death?

THE SPIRIT AT DEATH

Ecclesiastes 12:7 teaches that the spirit returns to God on death. For this reason we find that David committed his spirit to the Lord in Psalms 31:5. Upon His death, Jesus cried out, "Father into Thy hands I commit My spirit". (Luke 23:46). The Christian martyr Stephen also committed his spirit to the Lord when he died. (Acts 7:59).

COMMITTING OUR SPIRITS TO THE LORD

What a good pattern for us all to follow! We can commit our spirits to the Lord upon our death in full confidence, provided we have been dealt with spiritually by the Lord prior to our death. We need to experience personally Romans 8:16,

"The Spirit, Himself bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God".

We have all been born once physically, but we all need to be born again spiritually. (John 3:3-7). We need the Holy Spirit to inhabit our spirit, and this is what happens when we invite Jesus Christ into our lives, hearts, and spirits. No wonder Paul said to the godly man Timothy,

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you". (2 Tim. 4:22).

Hello BethalBoy

Re: "Following our fleshly death and the going out of our soul, we will spend a conscious eternity in one of two places, just as Jesus taught."

When and how did Jesus teach such?

Making statements as fact without scripture reference ....is not an effective teaching style, imo. Offensive, actually, imo.


gogh

I agree with you BethalBoy.

The scriptures don't say "the demon pretending to be Samuel." they just say "Samuel."

the problem comes when people see the word "death" and read "non-existence" (just like people get mixed up between "existence" and "life.")

Hi Malka

Re: "...when people see the word "death" and read "non-existence"..."

Did not our Lord and Master rely on his Father to resurrect him from death?

1Co 15:20...

" But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

"shedding of blood" describes death. The death of animals in sacrifice used to cleanse sins. Our Master offered his life/shed his blood/died for the human family....John 3:16...(ISV) "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life."

Hebrews 9:15...

"This is why he is the mediator of a new covenant; so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance promised them, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the offenses committed under the first covenant.
For where there is a will, the death of the one who made it must be established.
For a will is in force only when somebody has died, since it never takes effect as long as the one who made it is alive.
This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
For after every commandment in the law had been spoken to all the people by Moses, he took the blood of calves and goats, together with some water, scarlet wool, and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people,
saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God ordained for you."
In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in worship.
In fact, under the law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness."

Although the word death can be figurative, is it not most often to be defined as the opposite to life...which means non living/non existent (leaves die...animals die = non existent/reduced to basic elements/decay etc.)

Christian love,

gogh

Sorry Gogh I usually reference TOO much I was pointing to Luke 16: 19-31 there is also many other Broad road narrow rd

Hi BethalBoy

You teach conscious eternity. God's word teaches dead humans return to dust.....(unless, of course, they may be resurrected to life again in the flesh or as spirit creations)imo....

Act 24:15...

(ASV) "...having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust."

1Co 15:48... "As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly."

some references also...

Gen 3:19

(ASV) in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc. 9:5

(ASV) "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

.02,

gogh

No Gogh, he didn't.

He said he had the authority to lay down his life and the authority to pick it up again.

His authority comes from the father, just as ours comes from Jesus, but the scriptures actually credit the Father, son and the Holy Spirit with the act of raising Jesus. (The Spirit of Him who raised Christ from the dead.)

John 10:16-18 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."


if Jesus has the authority to take up his life after laying it down, then there's something of Jesus left to do so.

Hi Malkah

Re: "...only to take it up again."

Might this portion of scripture be understood figuratively and not literally?

Is this not a statement of assurance? The same kind of assurance of the resurrection as Mary stated at John 11:24..." Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

(Because Jesus proved faithful to death....is this this scripture not an assurance of his being/qualified to be, resurrected?)


Christian love,

gogh