Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I'm not here to Judge anyone just to discuss and I do have a VERY different veiw. And I believe that if He was not GOD He was a ravin' mad looney to say the things He did and it's easy to see Why the Jews wanted to kill him.

Lastly I wouldn't want anyone to die without finding " The REAL Jesus " not " Another Jesus " the cost is way TOO HIGH

your answer again contradicts scripture when put into correct context

[/quote]

Artcritic, Yesua's Human body was dead for 3 days the same as Lazarus' was.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last.

Interesting what Stephen's last words In Acts 7:59 were
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.[/quote]


psalm6
4-5

" return O Lord deliver me!
Oh save me for your mercies sake!
for in death there is no rememberance of you
in the grave who will give you thanks"
so now you tell us that the body has an immortal soul.

John 17
" do not cling to me for i have not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my bretheren and say to them
i am ascending to MY FATHER and to YOUR FATHER and to MY GOD and to YOUR GOD"

the one you say you know said he had not gone to heaven yet

so think again my friend if you think you can make us believe in the trinity and the immortal soul.

christ is indeed my saviour he is the saviour of the human race he died so that our sins may be forgiven.
" for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son so that whoever believes in him may not perish but have everlasting life"

the test by Yahweh of abraham was the most horrific test a man could experience
not one of giving his own life, but a test that required he give his Only sons life
a son whom he loved more than his very self!

this was a prelude of the sacrifice to come not Yahweh giving himself but even more than that the sacrifice of an only begotton SON

all of us here believe in Him and that sacrifice and its meaning for us but we also recognise His relationship with regard to His father.
and do not make the mistake of not recognising when authority and title is given

He is his only begotton Son ,the firstborn over all creation, the son to whom the father gives all authority and power, until he conquers the last enemy, that is death.
he then hands the kingdom back to the father.

elihu

YAHWEH Dead

Now lets think about this logically BB. If Jesus is YHWH then he was dead. YES or NO. Death is non-existence. Ecc 9:10 Who on earth is going to bring YHWH back to life? He is dead unless you believe he was really a spirit and just dematerialised. If that were true then there would be no need for a resurrection. Also that would be denying that Jesus came in the flesh Antichrist.

Ransom

The point goes back to this cunning teaching of Satan that is the 3 in one. If Jesus did not literally die for you then you make the ransom invalid for yourself. Jesus died and did not exist for 3 days. YHWH connot die he is from time indefinite to time indefinite and therefor personally could not give himself as a ransom for mankind.


If it were not for YHWH, Yesua would still be in the grave none existent.

Yesua becomes like Yahweh

Jesus after his resurrection became like his father YHWH and now cannot die. Jesus was given something he did not have Immortality. So yes he is now exactly like his father. Before his resurrection as a spirit he was like angels. Angels can die. If they cant then Satan cannot be put to death. The simple fact is YAHWEH is not Yesua. If you make them the same the ransom comes into question. It is very important to understand the death of Jesus is involved. Yahweh cannot die Jesus could. We know what death is and that is what Jesus experienced.

JESUS AND YAHWEH are not the same person

As regards Jesus he was not immortal until after his death. At the time Paul wrote 1 Tim 6:16 Jesus was the only one who had been given immortality. This was unique among the sons of YAHWEH and can rightly be said the only one(Jesus) possessing immortality among all creation.

YAHWEH has not been given immortality for he has never had a beginning or end, so he is without beginning or end. Jesus on the other hand was the beginning of Yahweh’s ways Pro 8:22 “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.”

The complexity of time cannot even measure how far Jesus goes back because he was set up from everlasting, from the beginning. All we know is Jesus is the beginning of his/YAHWEH's creation. Our God makes it easy to understand Father of Jesus=YHWH. Son of God=Jesus

Hi BR Sorry If I'm slow replying sometimes ( Man this is taking up a lot of time )[ I'm a 2 finger typist ]

and I appear to be a little out numbered in this area of thought.

Sometimes after awhile you just have to say we agree to disagree.

( Meet you on another thread )

Not at all and I hope my differing veiw hasn't upset you.:(

There are many areas where I can be more agreeable ( this is not one of them )

[/quote]I am hoping that you don't think I have fallen into that category when I have used the Scriptures in making my comments to you?[/quote]

Not at all in the past they may have been twisted by others and then taught to you but I donot think in any way YOU are twisting them:happyheart:

[/quote][color=#0000FF]And I believe that if He was not GOD He was a ravin' mad looney to say the things He did and it's easy to see Why the Jews wanted to kill him[/u[/quote]

As to this statement I'm very firm yes
there are areas where I am open to look at the Biblical content and reacess my veiws.

As to the above statement
In John 8 He say's this to the Jews ( His People )44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

[u]Followed by 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[n] going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Abraham saw HIM and Rejoiced? Before Abraham was YHWH

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God

NOW imagine this statement made by Peter or Paul
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. That all should Honor Paul or Peter just as they Honored GOD CRAZY!!!


[/quote] most of here believe that Jesus is indeed a 'God' ... the Bible says that he is a MIGHTY God ... he is just NOT the ALMIGHTY God[/quote]

The Why is He called " The Alpha and Omega " " The beginning and the end " as well as " the First and the Last " In Revelation the book it's self actually means " The unveiling of Jesus Christ "

Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,”[c] says the Lord,[d] “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev 1:“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”[f] and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia:[g] to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man,[THE SAME ONE IN THE FIRE IN DANIEL ]clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[h] “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. [WHO WAS DEAD AND LIVES FOREVER MORE?] Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Rev 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

Rev 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts [see John 4 ] [who gave her the water of Life? ]

Rev 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”[f]
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.[m] Amen.


[/quote]Are you here to 'save' us ...? to 'teach' us this idea as Scriptural truth' ...?[/quote]


No just here to get to read the passages and discuss them.
The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and GOD is The Saviour

The Bible opens with this emphatic statement " In the Beginning GOD

In Isaiah GOD says 44:6 6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

If He knows no other GOD besides him neither do I if so many OT & NT scriptures apply to both they must be the ONE GOD and Thus Why John Began hid Gospel " In the Beginning "

:happyheart::happyheart::happyheart:BB[/quote]

Artcritic, Yesua's Human body was dead for 3 days the same as Lazarus' was.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last.

Interesting what Stephen's last words In Acts 7:59 were
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.[/quote]


psalm6
4-5

" return O Lord deliver me!
Oh save me for your mercies sake!
for in death there is no rememberance of you
in the grave who will give you thanks"
so now you tell us that the body has an immortal soul.

John 17
" do not cling to me for i have not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my bretheren and say to them
i am ascending to MY FATHER and to YOUR FATHER and to MY GOD and to YOUR GOD"

the one you say you know said he had not gone to heaven yet

so think again my friend if you think you can make us believe in the trinity and the immortal soul.

christ is indeed my saviour he is the saviour of the human race he died so that our sins may be forgiven.
" for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son so that whoever believes in him may not perish but have everlasting life"

the test by Yahweh of abraham was the most horrific test a man could experience
not one of giving his own life, but a test that required he give his Only sons life
a son whom he loved more than his very self!

this was a prelude of the sacrifice to come not Yahweh giving himself but even more than that the sacrifice of an only begotton SON

all of us here believe in Him and that sacrifice and its meaning for us but we also recognise His relationship with regard to His father.
and do not make the mistake of not recognising when authority and title is given

He is his only begotton Son ,the firstborn over all creation, the son to whom the father gives all authority and power, until he conquers the last enemy, that is death.
he then hands the kingdom back to the father.

elihu
[/quote]

Elihu, ( I'm gettin a little over done since I have to reply to many long posts but here I go one last time ) ( Meet you on another thread)

First a definition of the Trinty= Within the unity of the one GOD there are 3 personalites #1 the Father not a person as in a human person but 100% Spirit the Bible describes HIM in trems his creation can understand and relate to #2. The Word of GOD 100% Spirit ( the he said's of Genesis 1 ) and #3. the Holy Spirit 100% Spirit.

( Just Like water H20 has 3 forms so does GOD Spiritually )

The Word of God becomes a man by conception of the Holy Spirit not by Human conception which would have had Adamic Sin a perfect spotless Lamb of GOD for the sacrifice HIS Human life for YOUR and MY Human Life ( the GOD MAN ) upon Death His Spirit returns to the Father ( Because death could not hold HIM he was sinless ) He becomes the first HUMAN ever to die and come back to Life never to die again ( Remember Lazarus and the others eventually died again after their resurrection ) So He became the FIRSTBORN or PreEminent One

read 1 Corth 15:So when this corruptible has "put on" incorruption, and this mortal has "put on" immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “ O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”


Ok quickly The father is GREATER in Position NOT Nature it says greater NOT Better ( There is a headship in the Godhead just like in the Church and in Marriage ) He Humbled Himself and became a man
100% man 100% GOD while here on Earth He was in TOTAL Submission to HIS Father and was obedient to Death.

He prayed to HIM while he was on Earth as a man. In everyway He showed US what we should do and taught HIS disciples and US to do what as He did.

The Bible says there is ONE Savior yet We have 2

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.

Titus 1:1 God our Savior 1:4 the Lord Jesus Christ[a] our Savior.

there might be a clue here
isaiah 44:6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.


Begotten When? at the Resurrection this unique, firstborn, one and only ONE First of

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, He wasn't you know What about Ishmael

Speaking of David Ps 89:27 27 Also I will make him My firstborn,
The highest of the kings of the earth.

Was David the firstborn or oldest Son No He was the Youngest

Gen 41:51 Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh:
And the name of the second he called Ephraim

Jer 31:9 For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.

Because of Manasseh Sin GOD Elevated Ephraim to the Firstborn or PreEminent position


If I missed some remind me later

:happyheart::happyheart::happyheart:BB

In the final analysis, -- once a Biblical truth is actually comprehended, -- it is understood to be both simple and beautiful.

Nowhere is this more evident than with the nature of Jesus Christ.

Who, if anyone, shares Jesus' nature? ONLY his own heavenly Father, YHWH. Being the "first-born of all creation," -- the "only-begotten Son of God," -- he will remain forever unique among all intelligent creation.

Jesus' Father, alone, has the distinction of having had no beginning; having existed throughout all eternity past. Jesus came into being, ... "in the beginning." His own beginning. As "the beginning of his Father's ways."

I observe that some have difficulty differentiating among "spirit" beings and creatures. Well, YHWH, the Father, is a "Spirit," but certainly is not a creature. His most precious Son, "by means of [whom] all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, ... hav[ing] been created THROUGH him and FOR him," is NOT an angel. YHWH is most certainly not an angel, either. Jesus, as the "Word of God," CREATED all of the angels, according to the WILL OF HIS FATHER. If YHWH is Jesus Father, ... who is his Mother? I have attempted to make the case on several prior occasions that the "woman" of Genesis 3:15 and Revelation, chapter 12 is The Divine Will, -- The Express Purpose, -- of the Creator. Jesus came into existence ... BECAUSE HIS FATHER WILLED IT TO BE SO; and it was just so. Jesus was "born" ... "out of" God's Will.

Jesus Father is God; his Mother is God's Will.

I think that is eloquently simple. And beautiful, almost beyond description.

So, back to the original question:

WHAT, PRECISELY, IS THE NATURE OF JESUS CHRIST?

It is the exact same nature as that of his Father! He is of the same essence! He possesses the same character! He is of the same God-stuff as his Father! (Some conscientious translations render John 1:1 as ... "and the Word was Divine." The apostle John, under inspiration, was describing a quality; he was referencing Jesus' true nature, explaining his essence and character. It was not a titular statement, at all.)

There's nothing really complicated about that, is there?

Jesus will remain forever unique in additional ways to the one mentioned above.

He will forever remain "The Eternal Father" to all of mankind who have been redeemed from Satan's clutches by his own precious ransom sacrifice (accomplished by means of -- what? -- his Father's Will!).

He will forever remain the one singularly responsible for triumphing over Satan's evils schemes and taking the keys of death right away from him! Jesus will open the gates of Death and Hades, release ALL who are held therein, and then THROW AWAY THE KEYS! ... Forever.

He will forever remain the quintessential example of what it means to worship and serve the Father of him and us "in spirit and truth" forever.

All of those things just listed sum up to mean that he will be the one who sees to the full and complete accomplishment of his Father's Will for physical creation.

He has "broken up the works of the Devil!"

He has "conquered the world" by his faithful course while on earth!

After all, he is the very Lo'gos, the very "Word of God"!

He is of his Father's Will! He will, forever, remain pro-active in seeing to the accomplishment of his Father's Will! Whatever it may prove to be at each point along the way for the eternity to come.

Praise YHWH, the Father! ... Praise the LAMB, our precious and glorious Lord, Christ Jesus!

AMEN! Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

[I have not listed the Scriptural references, simply out of respect for the fact that all of you know them by heart.]

Hi BR, :D

Well since I don't believe the ( tetragrammaton was ever in any greek christian scriptures) What were they to think this man standing in front of them saying before Abraham I AM ?

The Lord Jesus made several " I AM " statements

I Am The bread of Life ( pointing to the wilderness feed of Manna who fed them? )
I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE (In HIM WAS LIFE the source of life itself )
I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD ( THAT LIGHT WAS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD )
I AM The Good Shepherd ( Who was David's Shepherd? )
I AM The Water of Life ( Who gave them water from a Rock)

1 Corinth 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.


Isaiah 44:8 Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”


As to the " Alpha and Omega " what does it mean A and Z the other Titles " The First and Last " The Beginning and the END
(Isaiah 44:6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:

‘ I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

How can you say to me he is " a God "
The Other places in the Bible where Satan, or the Israelites are said to be Gods it is obvious they are not Gods but a fallen Angel and some whinney Humans.

The Christian and Jewish belief has alway been in ONE GOD not many
In the Beginning GOD.

So the statements referenced in Revelation all point to that ONE ALMIGHTY GOD " I AM the First and I am the Last, the Almighty
the a-z the Beginning and one day when time will end THE END

here is a link and a short bit from the end of it by an ex-jw named Mike

Conclusion

Difficult as the decision to honestly evaluate truth is, are you willing to accurately consider the lack of evidence for the use of the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Greek Scriptures?

If the Tetragrammaton was not used at Revelation 1:8, then John was quoting Jesus as saying:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega" says the Lord God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty."

read it all here its very in depth

http://www.tetragrammaton.org/fse.htm#chapter8

Hi Isomam,

In reguard to the statement below got any verses we can look at?

Here are a couple in Reference to Christ being Eternal

Micah 5:2 “ But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.” 3 Therefore He shall give them up,
Until the time that she who is in labor has given birth;
Then the remnant of His brethren
Shall return to the children of Israel.
4 And He shall stand and feed His flock
In the strength of the LORD,
In the majesty of the name of the LORD His God;
And they shall abide,
For now He shall be great
To the ends of the earth;
5 And this One shall be peace.


Isaiah 9: 6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [/quote]

Hi Artcritic,

[/quote] Death is non-existence.[/quote]
Man that non existant Lazarus, centurions daughter, and others sure seemed like they existed?

[/quote]

Hi, Bethel Boy! :) I have loved your double-entendre handle ever since you joined our discussion forum and explained its true meaning. I'm not so proud of the fact, but I was a "Bethel boy" of the other sort that most here are familiar with for about five years. (That was a looooong time ago, though.)

I have enjoyed many of your posts and many of your reasonings. Many; but not all, of course. I imagine that we are not so far apart, after all, in our present beliefs; and certainly not in our conviction for the Christ, Jesus. Wherever either one of us may be in error, Christ Jesus will readily forgive us; as long as we remain humble, yes?

You asked if I had "a Scripture." OK. Yes, I do.

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God.
--Psalm 90:2, from the Online Hebrew Interlinear.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInter.../psa90.pdf

But, like I said, I know that you already knew that.

And, as for your usage of Isaiah 9:6, I already addressed that in my post which you have quoted. Here it is again.

He will forever remain "The Eternal Father" to all of mankind who have been redeemed from Satan's clutches by his own precious ransom sacrifice (accomplished by means of -- what? -- his Father's Will!).

Just as we look forward to the prospect of eternity stretching out in front of us (and we most certainly had a "beginning,"), he, -- Jesus, -- the one who "bought" us ALL, will forever remain "The Eternal Father" to us all. This in no way diminishes any aspect of Jesus' Father's sovereignty, glory, or majesty. How can I say that? Because, -- again, -- it is all according to his Father's Will.

I don't do theological debates, BB; so I won't be drawn into one here. I have said what I needed to say. I will "exit, stage left" and return full "floor privileges" and "microphone privileges" to you and the others who no doubt do wish to continue the discussion. I'll still be reading, though; with interest.

Take Care, :friends:

Your brother in the Christian Faith, ... isomam