Hi Folks
As many of you will know, we've had some lively discussions just recently on the age of the Earth, both here and on Seraphim's forum.
Now, I'd like to ask people a question which I think is partly related...
Do you believe in a global Flood, and why? On what evidence?
And how would you justify your belief to a non-believer?
Here's the reason I ask. Many people here accept a global Flood happened approximately 4,350 years ago, but reject the idea that the world is 6,000 years old.
Fair enough. Some of you believe the first life is still only 49,000 or so years old.
However, most geologists believe even the idea of a global Flood is nonsense - and the same with the idea that all life is 6,000 or 49,000 years old. Here's the reasons they give...
(a) It violates one of the key principles of geology, the Principle Of Uniformitarianism, which states that the geologic processes observed in operation that modify the Earth's crust at present have worked in much the same way over geologic time. A fundamental principle of geology advanced by the 18th century Scottish physician and geologist James Hutton, is that "the present is the key to the past." In Hutton's words: "the past history of our globe must be explained by what can be seen to be happening now."
(b) Fossils and rocks are millions or hundreds of millions of years old, based on various dating systems (isotopic dating, or using the Geologic Column to determine in which "era" fossils belong). Thus, according to geologists, life kicked off in the Cambrian era approximately 550 million years ago. The dinosaurs disappeared about 70 million years ago, and then life has gone one pretty swimmingly since then, with no global Flood to interfere.
So then, in the face of these geological "facts", how would you justify a global Flood in the geologic record?
I'll go first... :D
Firstly, I believe the principle of uniformitarian itself is wrong, because it basically assumes no Flood occurred.
The so-called Geological Column is the evidence for the Flood - all of the sediment being laid down after it. The Flood explains the origin of coal, oil and the fossil record, including dinosaurs, which simply means "big lizards" which accurately describes them. They weren't a special creation as such, they were just lizards that grew incredibly big because of the pre-Flood environment.
As for the dates, all the dating systems are based on the principle of uniformitarianism too, so the "millions of years" is a fallacy. Sure, a rock will take millions of years to erode, if left to its own devices... but a Flood happened, which essentially devastated the entire planet. Under those conditions, rocks tend to act a little differently :D.
As for the age of the Earth, I believe it is 6,000 years old for precisely the same reasons, because I can't argue the fossils are really only thousands of years old, unless the dating systems themselves are wrong, by a HUGE order of magnitude. And if they are, then 4.6 billion years is wildly inaccurate by a HUGE order of magnitude also.
That's my story.
What's yours?
Do you believe in a global Flood? And upon what evidence?
:read: Well for me I do believe there was one, and for a few reasons, the most important being, in my mind, that in every religion and legend I have ever researched, including Native American legends, there is a great flood somewhere. In the Native American legend our hero climbs a tree and brings with him the birds :birds: and what not, and then, when the flood ends he climbs down into the muck and makes animals:beaver::blackcat::piggy: out of clay, which the Spirit breaths life into and repopulates the animals. And then, get this, creates a rainbow in the sky to show his joy at seeing things made anew. Sound familiar with an interesting twist? :rainbow:
The Nords :viking: believed that the Earth was ruled by great Ice Giants, and that the during the war of the Gods the giants were destroyed and the ice melted in a way that it flooded the land :fishsmile:, but blah, blah, blah, same old song and dance. :surfsup:
The Mayans had a story as well, though I cannot remember it. The Africans of what is now South Africa did as well in which their spider god anatsu :alien: saved the peoples. The people of Australia believed that floods occurred after a time the aboriginals call the Alcheringa or Dream Time :hypno:, and that a new land was created once the waters had receded. We see it reflected in so many places and in so many themes.
To me it would explain the extinction of things such as dinosaurs (yeah, this might be kind of weird) which could be where the legends of dragons come, and there is some geological evidence as well that could explain it, though I don't remember it right now...I watched a documentary on it a few months ago and was researching it at the time and was simply amazed at the concept. :reading:
Just like certain volcanic activity could scientifically explain the 10 plagues of Egypt, but doesn't make them any less miraculous, so too, in my mind, can the flood. Maybe it occurred in different places at different times because the world, at the time that Moses wrote those words, was a very very small place in comparison to what it is now. But yes, I do believe that there was a flood that God created to cleanse the Earth. :flowerchild:
I had a big debate ages ago on whether or not the flood was global or a local event.
Personally I think the flood was big but not global. I think it was perhaps the size of a continent or similar. This view doesn’t go against the bible because of the different meaning that the word earth had for the ancients. It simply meant the land and the local land at that in many instances. Earth also means even in modern English mud or land outside as in the farm or whatever.
There are a lot of problems with a global flood and my first objection to it is regarding fresh water fish. If the flood was global and was so violent so as to create the geology we have today then it stands to reason that the salt water would have spread into all areas and killed off all the fresh water fish. However this does not seemed to have happened. So that is reason number one.
The fact there are many flood legends all over the world does not surprise me because Noah descendants must have brought the story of the flood with them. So this does not provide the proof it may appear to for a global flood.
BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE UNIVERSALITY OF THE GENESIS FLOOD.
Richard M. Davidson
John Nevin Andrews Professor of Old Testament Interpretation
Old Testament Department
Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan
http://www.grisda.org/origins/22058.htm
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
Great question, Interpretum. One that is intricately tied in with the origins issue and the age of the earth and universe.
I gathered from your question that we are looking for physical evidence of a global flood rather than just the Biblical account? If that's the case, it's everywhere. But before we even look at that we need to take a look at what conditions existed before the flood and how we know this. Obviously all that water came from somewhere and since we know it couldn't have come from some water canopy that only leaves the release of heavily charged springs of water from the "deep", just as the Bible says. That would mean that previous to the flood the entire climate of the earth was different from today. What I have found to be compelling evidence are the discovery of ancient maps of Antarctica showing a more accurate topography without the ice cap than can even be accomplished with today's sophisticated equipment. This is also proof that the ice caps could not have formed millions of years ago but are no more than 3,000 to 4,000 years old (co-incidence?) which proves that sometime just before that, the earth experienced a drastic climate change.
These are known as the Piri Reis maps and you can read all about it here:
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm
Seraphim, in response to your question about the freshwater fish, here's something for you to consider:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlihttp:...FAQ23.html
Agape
Jesh
The link doesn’t work by the way. I would appreciate though an actual discussion on here rather than one conducted via links.
The link doesn’t work by the way. I would appreciate though an actual discussion on here rather than one conducted via links.
Sorry, I hate when that happens!
From http://www.creationscience.com, let me know what you think.
Chemistry of Body Fluids in Fish. Blood and other body fluids of almost all fish, freshwater and saltwater, have surprisingly similar chemistry. Their blood’s salinity, for example, is somewhere between that of fresh water and salt water. Actually, its concentration is about one-third that of normal seawater, not just for salt (NaCl) but for many other substances.1 For reasons that will soon be apparent, a typical preflood sea probably had a small salt content, as if you mixed two parts of fresh water with one part of seawater. However, just as oceans and seas today have variations in salt content, variations probably existed in and among preflood seas—perhaps large variations.
Living things have many marvelous, semipermeable membranes that allow some liquids or gases to pass through, but not others. For example, capillary walls are semipermeable membranes. Oxygen in our lungs can pass through capillary walls and mix with our blood, but blood does not normally pass through those walls. Substances that can pass through the membrane (such as oxygen) will, on balance, go from the higher concentration (in the lungs) to the lower concentration (in the blood). This is called osmosis.
Fish have a water problem. Freshwater fish have greater salinity in their blood (less concentration of water) than is in the water they swim in, so water seeps into their blood by osmosis. To correct this problem, freshwater fish seldom drink, and their kidneys secrete a watery urine. Conversely, saltwater fish have less salinity in their blood than is in their saline environment, so osmosis forces water from their bodies. Their kidneys pump out so little water that saltwater fish seldom urinate.
Mixing. During the flood, fish would have tried to stay in the most comfortable regions of the volume of water that was their preflood habitat. Salty, subterranean water, erupting onto the earth’s surface, would not have rapidly mixed with the less salty preflood seas. In fact, the larger a preflood sea, the slower it mixed and diffused, and the better it insulated its fish from muddy, hot, salty currents during the flood.2 Besides, preflood seas would have tended to “float†on the denser, muddier, saltier water.
In one 55-gallon experiment, a layer of freshwater floated on a typical layer of seawater. Several freshwater fish, saltwater fish, and other organisms placed in the tank lived in their respective environments for 30 days. The fish even made brief excursions into the more hostile environment.3 No doubt fresh water and salt water would mix at increasingly slower rates per unit volume if the experiment were scaled up to the size of a global flood.
Natural Selection. After 150 days (according to Genesis 8:3), flood waters began to drain into newly formed ocean basins. Fish trapped in continental basins were the potential ancestors of our freshwater fish. Rainfall over the next several decades diluted the salt concentration in most postflood lakes.4 Natural selection eliminated fish in each generation that could not tolerate the declining salinity. Those that could, had less competition for resources and could reproduce their tolerance for lower salinities. Because fish reproduce frequently and profusely, limited variations in each generation allowed rapid adaptation in their ability to control the water in their bodies. This is microevolution, not macroevolution. No new organs were needed.
Meanwhile, fish that ended up in the new oceans either had to tolerate slowly increasing salinity or face extinction. Survivors became our saltwater fish. Those unable to adapt are now extinct. (This largely explains why marine animals experienced the most extinctions.) Some fish, the best-known being salmon, are adapted to both fresh water and salt water. Wider salinity tolerances, such as those of salmon, may have existed before the flood.
Design. The ability over many generations to adapt to changing environments is a wonderful feature designed into all life. Without this capability, extinctions would be more common, and life would eventually cease—beginning, perhaps, near the bottom of the food chain. But adaptation has never produced macroevolution.