Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hey friends. :)

Recently someone representing the "Living Waters" sect posted a thread on the identity of the women & her seed.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.

Some members of Paradise cafe wanted to see this topic discussed without the contentions & pretension that come from somebody trying to proselytize though a thread. :readthis:
I'm hoping that this thread doesn't become hijacked by those who have a religious agenda, so for obvious reasons this thread is in the controversy room.

Now back to the topic in question, some scriptures that may be poignant to a better understanding of the Woman's identity & that of her seed.

Isaiah 54:5
Galatians 4:26
Revelation 12:1

Let's hope we can dig together in a sincere, loving, & non dogmatic manner!
:giverose: :friends: :thumbup:
Look forward to hearing your thoughts. :)

Agape Johnny :heartbeat:

Thanks KOF ... :heartbeat:

Let the research begin!!:read::read::giverose:


Luv as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

It's not dogma for someone to have made up their mind on a Scripture, is it?

o_o

Hi Peter ... :hibye::D

I'm not really sure what you mean by your question ... :dontknow:

However, I just looked up some definitions of the word 'dogma' and here is what I found ...:read:

1. a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof

2. Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed or doubted.

3. A concept or principle accepted as absolute truth on the basis of unquestioned acceptance of an authority's statement to that effect rather than on the basis of logical reasoning or demonstrated proof.

3. generally held set of formulated beliefs.

4. A blind belief in things often without a material base.

So, all in all ... it seems that a 'dogma' isn't really a 'good' thing is it? :huh:

And one would have to be very careful if they have 'made up their mind about a Scripture' that they would have absolute Scriptural proof of their belief ... at least that is how I think on it ... :giverose:

Not sure if this answers your question ... but I gave it a go ... ;)

Luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Huh. Okay, I see what happened. I'd think Livingwaters would do better than to post a doctrinal belief without proof. *shrug* Oh well.

" The Woman"

who is the woman that Yahweh speaks of in Gens 3:15?

is it Eve, who is present?, simplistically we would answer yes!, however we need to read into the context of the events that surround the words spoken in 3:15

Eve has just been decieved by a snake, she believes it to be a snake because she says
"the serpent decieved me and i ate"

so is eve aware of who this character really is behind the mask of the serpent i think not!

adam and eve were innocent children living in a garden of paradise.
Satan had not yet manifested himself as an opposer, no evil no sin existed.
eve believed the serpent to be exactly what she seen him to be , a reptile,
yes satan used a disguise that would make him blend into the garden surroundings
and so their loving father Yahweh when rebuking the serpent did so in a manner that those children would comprehend
that is why his initial words repremanding the serpent are spoke in a pictiorial manner that adam and eve would understand

"because you done this you are cursed more than all the cattle
and more than every beast of the field
on your belly you shall go and you shall eat dust all the days of your life"
adam and eve would recognise this statement with reference to their surroundings and life style.

but as we know the serpent is actually satan and of course yahweh knew that, and that is why his next words are focused on the mightier issue of the challenge to his sovereignity.

"and i will put emnity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed
he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel"

again Yahweh uses pictorial language that allows Adam and Eve to understand that the serpent has done wrong and is going to be punished in that someone is going to stand on the serpents head.

but as we are aware Yahweh was speaking of the future and in particular the end of satan.

so Yahweh spoke in childlike language as a parent would use for little children, to allow Adam and eve to understand the bad event that had taken place, and the punishment of the serpent,but he also used powerful language that Satan would understand and also ourselves today, to inform us of what must now happen because of this event in the garden.

Yahweh does not need time to think,his thought process are probably faster than the speed of light, he does not need counsellors,
he does not need advice, when he says something will happen he can speak as though it already has happened, because as we all know his name means " he causes to become"

so when he speaks of the woman she does not even exist as of yet but she is real because he has said she is.
this must have shocked satan he has just made his check mate move he has got the first humans to disobey god, but Yahweh already has the solution
"the Woman and her Seed"
and the emnity that will exist between the woman her seed, and satan and his seed.

where can we find this woman and her seed in scripture, well a symbolic picture of her is found in rev 12

i will stop my comments at that point for other comments to be made.
and i will post later about my thoughts on rev 12 and how they directly relate to Yahwehs words in the garden of Eden.
but to sum up so far i would say it was at the least naive to believe that Yahweh when speaking of the woman in the context gen15 was refering to Eve.

Elihu

Well thought, Elihu.
The only possible qualm I would have with that would be if God had identified that "the woman" is indeed Eve. But in the Serpent's sentence, God never made that distinction.

*nods* :) Looks good.

Personally, I was looking forward to refuting the points that were put up by CogentReasoning, but it appears the whole thread has been deleted. I wasn't going to push it out of respect for the forum members who had expressed that they had already dealt with those issues. But it must have been something I missed.

Since the topic has been brought up again, can we get that list back?

Jesh

Good digging Elihu, looking forward to more! :thumbsup: :giverose:

I'm thinking that the woman described at Genesis 3:15 is the same woman described at Revelation 12:1.

My feeling is that this woman symbolizes YHWH's covenant with humankind.
In Revelation 12:1 the woman has a crown of twelve stars on her head, notice how in the scriptures the number twelve seems to imply some positive relationship between God & humans;

Genesis 49:28
Matthew 10:1

God's word describes YHWH's relationship with people as a husband to a wife;

Isaiah 54:5-6

When God made his covenant his Abraham he talked about the blessing to come upon his seed;

Genesis 22:17a
I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.


Now God's anointed one or messiah came though Abraham right?
So surely the messiah is, or is, part of the seed from Genesis 3:15?

Luke 1:46-55
And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."

We know that the holy ones/Christ's brothers are to share in ruling with Christ in the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Revelation 14:1-5

So my thought is this; could the seed of the woman be God's Kingdom, including it's king Jesus/Yeshua, his "brothers" who rule alongside him, & possibly it's subjects in the new Jerusalem?

I'm wondering if when trying to understand prophetic symbols in the scriptures, were making a mistake in thinking these symbols denote definitive things instead of composite concepts?
IE; thinking that the woman is specifically the people that make up the covenant rather then the covenant itself? :dontknow:

Anyway these are just ideas subject to change; providing coercive scriptures are brought to my attention, after all didn't Joseph say:
"Interpretation belongs to YHWH"? :thumbsup:

Just my :2cents: folks. :blush:

Agape Johnny :heartbeat:

Good afternoon guys ... :love:

Ok ... I'm a wee bit out of my depth here ... however I think this is a pretty cool topic elihu ... :thumbsup::nicethread:

Both you and knight of faith did a really good job on expressing yourselves and causing us to put on our thinking caps ... :scratchhead::turban::chef:

Here is a comment that Iso had made in April that I thought I would put up for consideration as it is directly related to this topic ... :thumbsup:

Good too ... ;)

I will add a thought of my own after I get one together ... :funnyface::P

Luv as always BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


ISO'S COMMENTS BELOW ...

Here is how I understand "the woman"; and, "the seed of the woman."

YHWH had a Definite Purpose for this earth and mankind, before the entrance of sin and death. It represented His Will. Without the interference of Satan and the original human transgression, "God's Will" would have been done on earth, as it is in heaven, right from the outset. I submit that God's Purpose, -- His Loving Will, -- is that to which He is "Married." It is "His Woman"; "His Wife."

Now, if a human were to start talking like that (speaking of an aspect of themself as a separate entity), they would be quickly diagnosed as suffering from Delusional Grandiosity and rushed off to a padded room. But, not so with God. God is God! He IS Grand! Back to my point, prior to the introduction of sin with its consequence, death for all mankind, there would have been no such need for any "seed" to come forth from "the woman." There would have been no call for The Word, The Lo'gos, to willingly give up his heavenly residence alongside God, his Father, and humbly take the form of a man (Philippians 2:5-11), for the express Purpose of putting God's Will once again in "Accomplishment Mode." (See John 19:30, and 1 John 3:8-b.) The "seed" of "the woman," -- Jesus Christ, -- participated in the creation of all things and all persons, both spirit and human. He was as fully invested in the glorious accomplishment of his Father's Will as was the Father, Himself. I can imagine, in my mind's eye, that when God called a heavenly meeting to discuss the new developments here at the earth (following the fall), that He may have asked if there were any volunteers for what would prove to be a most trying mission. I can further imagine The Word, -- unique among them all as the only one born directly out of God (the rest were created), -- speaking up immediately and saying, in effect:

Father, please don't even think about allowing anyone other than me to go and perform this mission. I am the one who has been alongside you before there was any other person or thing. I want this as much as You do. Please. Let me be the "instrumentality for the Full, Final, and Complete Accomplishmment of Your Will." I am ready. Willing to accept any sacrifice that it may require from me.

8 This He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that He made known to us the Sacred Secret of His Will. It is according to His Good Pleasure which He Purposed in Himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him.
--Ephesians 1:8-10, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

Hey, KOF, a few nit-picks:
you said that the "woman" is mankind?

How is that? Adam is the one who symbolizes mankind. Wouldn't the woman symbolize (like in Revelation) the Church?

Hi all ... :hibye::D

Since I am still in 'mulling' mode ... :huh: please forgive if I don't have any 'conclusions' ... :giverose:

For some reason after thinking yesterday and last night on this topic and your idea of 'how Eve viewed Jehovah's comments' br. elihu I thought of Job.

When he started to have 'difficulties' :shocked: in his life ... :crybaby: he DIDN'T UNDERSTAND the 'big invisible picture' or 'drama' that was being played out did he ... :dontknow:

He didn't know WHY these things were happening to him ... and even his 'so-called comforters' blamed him as being at fault to try to 'understand' why what was happening was happening ... :thinking:

Now, what has this got to do with the Genesis account ...

Well, perhaps Eve too did look at it as being 'her' that Jehovah was speaking about ... and to some extent it really was wasn't it ...

For I bet that when the 'aging process' and the 'sicknesses' and 'pains and sufferings' that they began to go through ... she most certainly would have had 'enmity' for the 'snake' that had misled them and brought such terrible upon them ... :rant: :devil:

Now, I had a thought ... :scratchhead: still not fully formulated ... so please bear with me ... to show why perhaps the 'woman' mentioned could really not be Eve herself ... :blush:

The Scripture says ...

(CEV) You and this woman will hate each other; your descendants and hers will always be enemies. One of hers will strike you on the head, and you will strike him on the heel."

Why would Satan hate the 'woman' (if it were Eve herself) since she obviously chose him, the Devil, over God ...? She chose to side with him, in essence, choosing him for her God ...?

Since the woman's (Eve's) children FOR THE MOST PART ended up TURNING AWAY from Jehovah ... and embracing things the Devil inspired... then why would he hate her 'seed' or 'offspring' ...?

Just a thought ... as I said I haven't had an opportunity to really think it through but I'm working on it ... :thumbup::love:

I have some others ideas rolling around in there ... but wanted to put this 'out' there first to see if I was being too foolish in my reasoning process so far ... :funnyface:

Luv as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Well, you have to remember that God was talking to the Serpent when He made the Judgment/Prophecy. He wasn't addressing Eve.
Hm.

Hi Peter :hibye:

Did I? :scratchhead:

Where ...? :dontknow:

Maybe you are referring to iso's comments I posted ... or maybe someone else's ... or else I'm really confused ... :funnyface:

Luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

PS ... there is nothing 'nitpicky' about asking a question by the way ... that is what we are here for ... to ask and learn from one another ...:thumbsup: