Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Why don't we let the Bible speak?
Leviticus 5

(bolded mine)

Apparently, the Lord understands that humans are stupid, and sometimes do things in ignorance. Sins done in ignorance will be held against the sinner "when he comes to know" that he did it. Usually it doesn't take too long, unless the person is in the habit of rejecting knowledge and never thinking about what he's doing (there's judgment for those, too, but that's a topic for another day). In any event, once the person knows that he's sinned in ignorance, he is guilty of a sin he has committed (see bold).
A sin done in ignorance is still a sin, according to the Bible. God's judgment on the matter, though, depends on what the person does about it: however, the sin is still sin.
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A recent discussion came up, and apparently it was important enough to nearly derail an entire thread: most certainly it was distracting enough to quelch an enormous amount of discussion. So I figure it must be of merit to talk about. Lying.
Can you "lie" without realizing it?
Well, first let's look up the word. Since we're talking about a definition, a dictionary's a good place to start.

From http://www.dictionary.com

Apparently, we have two definitions of what "to lie" means: either to speak falsely with intent to deceive, or to simply express what is false.
Those are the practical definitions.
But does the Bible have anything to say about the topic? That's more important, right?
So let's see.
Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Liar:
pseudes (psyoo-dace') 5572
From pseudomai; untrue, i.e. Erroneous, deceitful, wicked
false, liar.
pseudomai (psyoo'-dom-ahee) 5575
Middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to utter an untruth or attempt to deceive by falsehood
falsely, lie.


It seems that this same dynamic exists in Revelation about whom God will judge as guilty of lies: the Greek word also allows for simply "uttering an untruth", just like the English word.
But which one is being talked about here?
Obviously, those who go about trying to deceive. Proverbs is full of Solomon saying how much the Lord abhors dishonest scales, and those who use them to cheat. If a person is honest, he won't use dishonest scales. If he is honest and is using dishonest scales in ignorance, he is still sinning, and will return what was cheated. However, the Lord will not hold against someone a dynamic of which he is unaware.
However, if the "honest man" never double checked his scales in the first place, he is rejecting knowledge completely (and if someone points it out, and he refuses to double check for any reason, he is in danger of being guilty of the same)
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

God will destroy those who are in ignorance because they reject knowledge which would bring them out of it. Yes, they were sinning in ignorance, so that sin is not held against them (they were still sinning, as pointed out in Leviticus), but what they are JUDGED for is their REJECTION of knowledge.



So.
What is a lie, according to the Bible?

The sin of "lying" is bearing a false testimony about something to someone. Nothing in the Ten Commandments says a word about the person's intent. Yes, the spirit of the law says "Don't be deceitful", but the letter simply says "Don't speak untrully".
Can a person sin in ignorance?
Yes. That's the first Scripture in this post.
Does that make the concept of "lying" more serious? The fact that an ignorant sin is still sin?
It does to me. Whether or not I meant to deceive, I have born false witness to someone: to them, it doesn't matter whether or not I meant to lead them falsely or not; I did it. And that is what the Lord commands us not to do.

Yes, we fail sometimes (Paul almost never talks about failure: we KNOW we fail), but what matters before God is our attitude. Whether or not we are sinners, we'll probably bear false witness. But a child of God will fix it and try to avoid it at all costs. That's the difference. A Christian will do more than just "not meaning" to do it: he'll do everything he can to avoid actually doing it.



All Bible. Otherwise I wouldn't have the guts to say it. :P

I noticed that you used scriptures from the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation.

I am certainly glad my sins, deliberate or not, are all covered by Jesus sacrifice and that i am not under the Law.

Hi Peter ... :hibye:

Wow ... :shocked: it is obvious that you have spent quite a lot of time, thought and effort to express your express ... :post:

Thank you ... :)

If I may add a thought or two of my own ... :giverose:

I agree with you that 'sin is sin' ... whether one realized it or not as you say doesn't negate that fact at all ...

Men sin for various reasons ... some deliberately, some may do what may be considered in various cultures (killing a cow for example in a certain country) and then we have sin just because we are imperfect ... (there may be more ways to express it but I'll leave it at that in case you don't like long posts either) :D

In the old law 'unintentional sin' (or sins committed by mistake) was covered by a sin offering. The type of animal that was offered would depend upon whose sin is being atoned for—that of the priest, the people as a whole, a chieftain, or an ordinary person.

To me, this provision under the old law shows how FORGIVING our God was and UNDERSTANDING of the failings of his now imperfect creatures ... :(

Also, we see in the Greek Scriptures this same understanding of the weaknesses and imperfections and shortcomings of mankind ...

James 3:2 ...

(ASV) For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.

(BBE) For we all go wrong in a number of things. If a man never makes a slip in his talk, then he is a complete man and able to keep all his body in control.

(Darby) For we all often offend. If any one offend not in word, *he* is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body too.

So, obviously then since no one is 'perfect' yet ... we can EXPECT that WE and others will do or say things that are wrong ... whether we realize it at the time or not ...

The thing that I personally like to focus on at times like these is this ...

What if "I" were to ... using your point above ... say something that may prove to be 'untrue' whether I knew it or not ... (since I try very hard not to lie I would hope you would believe it to be a 'mistake' and not deliberately setting out to deceive or hurt) :giverose:

I would hope that the one whom I 'lied' to would accept my humble and sincere apology ... or if they knew it was a mistake ... might just 'overlook' it knowing that everyone slips once in a while (of course that would depend upon what was said ... if it would hurt someone or cause someone to believe something that wasn't true to the detriment of their spirituality than I would expect them to come to me pronto ...)

Are there Scriptures to support this thinking ...?

Matt. 18:21,22 ...

21 Peter came up to the Lord and asked, "How many times should I forgive someone who does something wrong to me? Is seven times enough?"
22 Jesus answered: Not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!

1Pet. 4:8 ...

(BBE) And most of all be warm in your love for one another; because in love there is forgiveness for sins without number:

(CEV) Most important of all, you must sincerely love each other, because love wipes away many sins.

So, perhaps the thing not to focus or dwell upon the 'sin' (especially if it was without someone knowing they were sinning) ... but rather the 'forgiveness' of it ...?

Just a thought ... :giverose:

Luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Jesus died for our sins and He tells us to pluck out the eyes if the eyes cause us to sin. We should think about sin seriously, my friend. And He also tells us narrow the gate that leads us to heaven and only a few find it; isn't that because most of us are committing sins and not repenting?

hitomi

:clap: Hey Peter!! :clap:

Thanks for your thoughts mate! Heres a scripture to consider >

"So any person who knows what is right to do but does not do it, to him it is sin." -- James 4:17

While I would agree that sin is sin -- it seems that knowledge of what is and isnt sin, and acting sinfully, has greater bearing on the situation than that of those who are ignorant in their sins, and act sinfully. :detective:

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:

Let's forcussing on the topic shall we? There are so many things are said in the Bible and how do we balance?

just another 2 cents.:)

hitomi

Whatever standard you choose to enforce on others is the one that will be enforced on you. I think that is an excellent criteria for judgment. It's what Jesus said...and it's good enough for me. All punishment is self-punishment.


gus

I believe noone can enforce anyone with anything. All we can do is to express.

hitomi

Good point, Hitomi. Not everyone has the power or authority to "enforce" anything at all. But the heart is betrayed by the words...and it is the heart (not the power or authority) that judges the man himself.

What would a man "enforce" if he had the power? I thank God every day that most people have no authority at all.

gus

Why do we try to read people's heart or mind at all?

hitomi

I don't need to try, Hitomi. Sometimes folks just hang it in front of my face.

gus

that's how we feel about people who dont agree with us gus.:whistle:

hitomi

Let me start by saying that I think this was a wonderful thread butxifxnot :thumbsup: it definitely caught my attention and curiosity. And though I do agree that Jesus died for our sins, it doesn't mean that we should not recognize our sins and pray for repentance and confess in the name of God or Jesus. If we just sin, realize it and go "oh well, Jesus died for my sins, so that's enough", after all why would God help those who won't help themselves. In doing this we take Jesus' sacrifice in vain, and show a spiritual arrogance, at least, in my opinion. Though Jesus died for us, it does not mean we should not take responsibility for our sins and try to set it right in anyway we can, including spiritually. We say we are all sinners, and that we recognize that, but few people seem to do much about it. Jesus died so we had a chance at salvation and could be safe in his arms. But he didn't die so we could hide behind him. I think butxifxnot brings up a wonderful point, though it is from the old testament. I believe that though the new testament holds new laws and new lessons, we should not forget the lessons of old. I think that some religions try to push the concept of this in various directions, for instance the Catholic Church can sometimes perverse this, in my mind at least, in the idea of the confessionals and penance to the church (sometimes done monetarily) and in others it's as though you could commit bloody murder and it doesn't matter because Jesus died so you're forgiven. I personally feel this is an ignorance in a way and that if Jesus was here before us, he would weep because of how people have come to feel that because they are human they can sin without spiritual consequence.

Now, I'm not saying this applies to everyone, but to many people in our world it does. To me, a sin is a sin, and that if we recognize it, it is up to us to ask forgiveness and try our best to put it right with the world, and with God. But, that's just my opinion.

Once again butxifxnot, beautiful post, and wonderful research. :cheer::read::thumbsup:

Wow, 12 replies. =)

...wow, 2 replies addressing the topic.
Thank, you, BR and DP. :)
[edit]3! Yay.[/edit]

But I ask you (and the others) to note:
I never once mentioned judging anyone in my spiel, nor did I mention how we are to deal with people who have sinned in any way against us; I'm talking about our own Christian living regarding ignorant sin. If you find yourself not even thinking of unintentional sins as actually being sin that you need to work with God on killing, perhaps you will consider changing how casual you are about "mistakes".

This is for edification, not a judgment session. I'm not the one with the responsibility of making you apply what you need to do: it's y'all. And I haven't sat down and considered if any of you need to do it or if I'm spouting Scripture to the choir.
But I felt that this very biblical idea met so much resistance that it should be brought up.

And if you can't accept that I haven't judged anyone, nor have I asked anyone to judge anyone other than yourselves, then there's nothing I more I can do than I already have: spoken the truth. And I've gone Scripture the whole way.
Please don't put words in my mouth, saying I'm judging and whatnot. My post had nothing to do with passing judgment.

You're right.

But it seems that we tend to forget the bearing that ignorant sin DOES have. God required sacrifice for unintentional sins, too, so He apparently sees it much more seriously than "Whoops. Oh well."

Of course it's not as serious as deliberate sin. But y'all understand that aspect of it, so I minimized my discussion on it.