Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi all ...

The last several days I have been busy seeking to put some thoughts to together on whether or not we are living in the time of the harvest ... I have begun to put some down but thought that in the meantime I would like to get your input and knowledge ...

Jehovah's witnesses have been taught that we have been living in the time of the harvest since 1919 ...


w81 8/1 p. 23 pars. 7-9 Harvesting in the “Time of the End”

9 When, after 1914, did the Son of man “send forth his angels” to separate the “sons of the kingdom” from “the sons of the wicked one,” the imitation “wheat,” that is, “persons who are doing lawlessness” and who include the “man of lawlessness,” the religious leaders of counterfeit Christianity? The answer must correspond with the facts, and these show that it was in 1919 that the spirit-begotten, anointed “sons of the kingdom,” symbolized by the “wheat,” began to be freed from the “weeds,” or false Christians, that had overrun the religious field of mankind. The “harvest of the earth” was ripe and the time had come for the “Son of man” to thrust in his sickle and reap. The parable reveals that he did this by means of his “reapers,” angels.

Soooo ... how do ya'll feel about this ...?

Do you think we are living in the 'time of the harvest' when the reaping is being done ...?

Luv some input to see if it goes along with my thinking ... :giverose:

Luv as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hey DCN, good to see you back!

Well BR, I tend to look at the Revelation in these matters. The mark of the beast seems to be the deciding factor in who gets into the book of life. So while I think that all of us are showing YHWH each and every day where our hearts are in how we live our lives and treat others, no one has been separated yet. Even the vilest of weeds has time to repent, but there won't be any last-minute hucksters sneaking their way into the Kingdom. The things that happen on earth to expose the devil when his kingdom crumbles will make it fair for everyone. I trust in Yah to make that happen, because he has said so.

The Watchtower's artfully contrived interpretation is shot full of holes, and as Robert King has pointed out, according to them the beast has had two separate abyssings and every JW who has ever served in the military already has the mark of the beast and has no chance of surviving Armageddon. And yet the bread and circuses show goes on. Let them (the Goyim) eat cake!

Jesh

I don't know about when the time of the "harvest" is.

But I do know that the "mark of the beast" isn't a literal physical mark. That can't be the deciding factor.

I agree, it's not a literal mark, it's a heart condition and it's worship of the rulers put in place by Satan, and a rejection of the Kingdom of Christ.

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it means endurance for the holy ones, those who observe the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”


Jesh

Hi all ... didn't mean to ignore your comments ... been really busy these last several days ... :funnyface: didn't even have time to write down some more thoughts on this subject ... :post:

I too think Revelation is something to consider as well Jesh when it comes to the 'time of the harvest' where we see Jesus and the angels 'reaping the harvest' ... :blush:

Here are some thoughts I wrote down a few weeks ago in the beginning of my research ... :love:

We are told at Eccl. 3:1 …

(ASV) For everything there is a season, and a time for very purpose under heaven:

(BBE) For everything there is a fixed time, and a time for every business under the sun.

(CEV) Everything on earth has its own time and its own season.

Yes, our God is a God of order, and a set time or a schedule for his purposes in all He does.

Hab. 2:3 assures us that he will stick to His timeframe and nothing will speed it up or slow it down for it is set like a perfectly timed watch.

(ASV) For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it hasteth toward the end, and shall not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.

(BBE) For the vision is still for the fixed time, and it is moving quickly to the end, and it will not be false: even if it is slow in coming, go on waiting for it; because it will certainly come, it will not be kept back.

(CEV) At the time I have decided, my words will come true. You can trust what I say about the future. It may take a long time, but keep on waiting-- it will happen!

We can see from various Scriptures that Jehovah has a ‘set’ time for many things, for example Ex. 9:5, 6 shows there was a ‘set time’ when the Nation of Israel was captive in Egypt Jehovah to show the demarcation between his people and those who were not.

5 Tomorrow is the day the LORD has set to do this.
6 It happened the next day--all of the animals belonging to the Egyptians died, but the Israelites did not lose even one.

Gal. 4:4 shows that there was a ‘set time’ for Christ to come to the earth.

(ASV) but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

(GNB) But when the right time finally came, God sent his own Son. He came as the son of a human mother and lived under the Jewish Law,

Dan.9:26 shows a ‘set time’ that our Lord had to die.

(CEV) At the end of the sixty-two weeks, the Chosen Leader will be killed and left with nothing. A foreign ruler and his army will sweep down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins, and war and destruction will continue until the end, just as God has decided.

(DRB) And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people, with their leader, that shall come, shall destroy the city, and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation.

And it seems that even for our day there is a ‘set time’ a time of the end when certain events are to happen in a certain and specific order for certain purposes.

Just like events happened right on schedule in the past, so to we can be confident that they will for the future as well.

In my researching in trying to discover the truth about the ‘time of the harvest’ I have discovered many interesting things … things that I am still looking into for more clarification.

So, where do I find myself thinking we are in the stream of time is a question I have been pondering over?

When it comes to growing crops there is a time also for everything ... a time to plant the seed, a time to for the seed to germinate, a time when the seed begins to grow, then after the germination process is successful the plant begins to grow beneath the ground until it bursts forth and begins to grow all the way to maturity.

After the wheat is planted in the Fall, and after the germination process is completed I found it interesting that the 'seed' goes to 'sleep' (or is dormant' throughout the winter months ...

Then as Spring approaches the 'seeds' come back to life (or wake up) and then continue to grow to full maturity as the growing season progresses ...

I couldn't help but reflect on this when it comes to us as servants of God and followers of Christ ...

Have we been in the 'winter months' since our Lord and the apostles died? Have we been in a kind of 'dormancy' (still alive and yet not fully activated?) until the 'appointed or proper time' comes to 'wake up ...

Rev. 3:3 says this about the congregation in Sardis ...

(CEV) Remember the teaching that you were given and that you heard. Hold firmly to it and turn from your sins. If you don't wake up, I will come when you least expect it, just as a thief does.

(GNB) Remember, then, what you were taught and what you heard; obey it and turn from your sins. If you do not wake up, I will come upon you like a thief, and you will not even know the time when I will come.

Rom. 13:11 also seems to indicate that there will be a period of 'dormancy' or 'sleepiness' on the part of Christ's followers ...

(BBE) See then that the time has come for you to be awake from sleep: for now is your salvation nearer than when you first had faith.

(CEV) You know what sort of times we live in, and so you should live properly. It is time to wake up. You know that the day when we will be saved is nearer now than when we first put our faith in the Lord.

So, if we 'weren't asleep' in some way then why would we be asked to 'wake up' ...? :dontknow:

Anyway, what do ya'll think so far ...?

I would love some input on this ... :giverose:

I have a lot of others things I would like to add but thought maybe trying to do it in stages was better ...?

Anyway ... any comments would be deeply appreciated ...

Luv as always ...BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

hi sister BR,
i agree with your comments, we have been in a "dormant" state since the days of the apostles and also the truth has been interfeared with by powerful men who take hold of the kingdom of God.

Yahweh has an appointed time as you say, the day when he will instruct his son to return.
as we know no one knows the day or the hour, but christ gave his disciples teaching on events that would take place prior to his imminent arrival,
he did this to to enable them to recognise his imminent return and wake up at the right time.

" but while the bridegroom was delayed they all slumbered and slept"
" and at midnight a cry was heard
" behold the bridegroom is coming go out to meet him"

who makes the cry? could it be the holy spirit that awakens us,
i believe that it is already happening.

elihu

Matthew 25:5-7
The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

Notice that ALL of the virgins became drowsy & fell asleep. :detective: :thinking:

Agape Johnny :heartbeat:

Darn it, Elihu beat me to it! :angry: :whistle: ;)

Agape Johnny :heartbeat:

Hey there two of my favorite bro's :hibye::D

Thanks so much for your input so far ... :thumbsup:

Interesting thought about ALL the virgins sleeping Johnny ... :thumbup:

IMHO Christ Jesus never gave an illustration ... especially one so vital to our spiritual future without a reason ... and having many aspects to it ... as I seem to be finding out when I started to dig into this whole 'wheat harvest' project ... :read:

I started to take note of 'time frames and aspects' when it came to 'literal harvest' and see an amazing connection to some 'spiritual time frames and aspects' as well ...

For example here are some things I have found ... can anyone corroborate or add to these ...?

Besides its significance as the day on which the Torah was given by God to the Jewish nation at Mount Sinai, Shavuot is also connected to the season of the grain harvest in Israel. In ancient times, the grain harvest lasted seven weeks and was a season of gladness (Jer. 5:24; Deut. 16:9-11; Isa. 9:2). It began with the harvesting of the barley during Passover and ended with the harvesting of the wheat at Shavuot. Shavuot was thus the concluding festival of the grain harvest, just as the eighth day of Sukkot (Tabernacles) was the concluding festival of the fruit harvest. During the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem, an offering of two loaves of bread from the wheat harvest was made on Shavuot (Lev. 23:15-21).

........

Another festival is the Feast of Wheat Harvest which is the offering of loaves which occurs 49 days [7weeks] after beginning barley harvest.

.....

The Bible describes Israel as a land blessed with seven species (shiv'at haminim) of fruit and grain: "A land of wheat, barley, grape vines, figs and pomegranates, a land of olive oil and (date) honey' (Deuteronomy 8:8). These seven species have a special place in Judaism and can be seen in most parts of Israel, cultivated in rural areas, adorning urban gardens and parks or growing wild.


Then when it comes time for the HARVEST SEASON ... I noticed that there appears to be THREE aspects to it ...

In ancient Israel the primary harvest season extended from April to November. This harvest period might be subdivided into three seasons and three major crops: the spring grain harvest, the summer grape harvest and the autumn olive harvest. These harvests have a rough, rather than a precise, correspondence with the festivals. Some grain might be harvested after Pentecost, threshing and grape-picking might overlap, and the olive harvest came both before and after the Festival of Tabernacles.

But the fall festivals were associated with greater rejoicing (Deuteronomy 16:13-15). Why the theme of rejoicing? The conclusion of a wine harvest is an appropriate time for festivities. But another reason may be that Tabernacles celebrated both the spring harvest and the summer harvest.


Then I started to think along the lines of ...

Jesus came during the Fall harvest ...
Died during the Summer/Spring harvest ...
Seems to 'return' during the Fall harvest ...

I base his returning during th Fall harvest (grape harvest) because of the Scripture in Rev. 14:14-18 ...

14 I looked and saw a bright cloud, and someone who seemed to be the Son of Man was sitting on the cloud. He wore a gold crown on his head and held a sharp sickle in his hand.
15 An angel came out of the temple and shouted, "Start cutting with your sickle! Harvest season is here, and all crops on earth are ripe."
16 The one on the cloud swung his sickle and harvested the crops.
17 Another angel with a sharp sickle then came out of the temple in heaven.
18 After this, an angel with power over fire came from the altar and shouted to the angel who had the sickle. He said, "All grapes on earth are ripe! Harvest them with your sharp sickle."

Now, what also got me thinking was the Scripture the idea of the Master delaying ... and the connection to 'wheat harvest' and perhaps the 'grape harvest' ...

So, now ...

If his followers think he is returning during the 'wheat harvest' ... (Spring/ Summer harvest) ... and yet he doesn't actually return until the (Fall 'grape' harvest ... in the middle to third aspect of the 'harvest') ... wouldn't it seem that he was 'delaying' ... because his followers would think he was coming at the beginning of the harvest season ...?

Or ...

Are there TWO reapings done ...

first the WHEAT ... (firstfruit)

then

the GRAPES ...(great crowd perhaps?)
Anyway ... I have probably totally confused ya'll now ... but as I am still sifting through some things that makes 'two' of us ... :P:funnyface:

I was just hoping that perhaps some of these thoughts might spur on ya'll thinking caps ... :giverose:

Luv again ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

i think the initial harvest is what is described as the collection of the elect

matt 24 :31
and he will send his angels with a great trumpet sound and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other"
now it could be reasoned that this gathering is everyone who is saved, however there is what appears to be another harvest

"matt 25:31-

" when the son of man comes in all his glory and all his holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of His glory
all the nations will be gathered before him and he will seperate them one from another as shepherd divides the sheep from the goats"
this seperation is judged on how these people treated Christ

" for i was hungry you gave me food i was thirsty you gave me a drink, i was a stranger and you took me in"
they ask when did we do these things?

" the king will answer and say to them, "assuredly i say to you whenever you did it to one of the least of these my bretheren you did it to me""what makes me wonder about that scripture is that they actually seem unaware that they have performed these things
but that is another topic

so i still feel that scripture indicates that there are going to be Brothers of Christ present here on earth just prior to the time of the arrival.
now that could harmonise with rev 7 that informs us that there will be 144k Taken out of the twelve tribes of Israel
so that in essence we are possibly being told of the gathering of the rest of the members of the 12 tribes of Israel at the arrival and on going presence of Christ.

i know the two tier teaching has been misused by a few religious groups including the WTO to Mislead its sheep but that in itself does not mean that it is a false teaching,
it is simply a bible teaching that has been misunderstood and misused.

so if i understand you correctly BR i sort of agree with you that there may be harvest of the wheat, then of the grapes
but not until the Lord returns.

this is where the WTO and others have mislead their followers. They have by one method or another placed themselves in a position of authority that they do not hold,( faithful and discrete slave)
the wto organisation have used the invisible presence false doctrine to underpin the 1914 lie to elevate themselves as the mouthpiece of christ
i cannot help but feel that it is those who cling to the 1914 doctrine and its foundation lie of the invisible presence along with others who continue to support their religious organisations instead of fleeing BTG when the elect expose her, who say
" lord when did we see you hungry, or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you"
then he will answer them saying
"assuredly i say to you, inasmuch as you did not do to one of the least of these you did not do it to me"

how these brothers (elect) will be identified i am unsure at this point in time but they surely will be revealed when Jehovahs time schedule demands.

Elihu

Hi everyone.:)

Excuse me for butting in but this has been one of my questions which I have been missing to ask and thank you BR for bringing it up:)

What does Jesus mean when He says the harvest is plentiful but workers are few? I thought Jesus was the Harvester and His people are planters.

hitomi

I wonder if the wheat and weeds are the same as the sheep and goats

i asked about sheep and goats on ew and the answer seems to be the sheep are the heavenly hope and the earrthly hope

but it seems confusing to me that the ones who treated Christ's brothers was the deciding factor on being a sheep and if one is already Christ brother how would he be judged as a sheep

i do find the ancient hebrew festivels facinating - as they all picture a bigger fulfilment - keep us informed as to what you dig up BR

:heartbeat:

Hi Hitomi

Good question! It helps to look at the context of the whole statement:

37 Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”

It seems that workers are few until the harvest time, and he tells us to pray for more workers when the time comes. It all seems to indicate that we are not yet into the harvest time and there has been no separating of the sheep and goats yet.

Jesh

thank you Jesh, but who are the havesters? and how are they going to harvest?

thank you:)

The answer, Hitomi, comes in Matthew 13:36-43:

36 Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

Agape
Jesh