Paradise Café Discussions A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

i few recent threads have prompted me to consider just how much the WTO has mislead us in our understanding of scripture.

the 1914 doctrine is undoubtable the major falsity in their teaching and is founded on the "Invisible presence of Christ"
i know Robert King has written about the return of christ being visible only to the elect.

But is an invisible presence or a selective appearance a biblical teaching?

i will quote a few scriptures which to me indicate both to be false, and the second coming of Christ to actually be an earth shaking event that the whole of the human race see, hear and experience.

firstly let me talk about the " presence"
the WTO claim the return of Christ is an invisible presence that took place in 1914, but how so?
why do they differentiate between a presence and the coming.
to be present is to be there is it not?

so the words of Christ telling us to watch out for signs that he is present (invisible) i believe are words to make us aware that he is about to return visibly.
i will not type scripture he to save time matt 24 v 6-14

after these things
matt 24 v 30
" then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will SEE the son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
NKJ

What is also a noticable lapse in the WTO teaching is that his invisible presence takes place before the GT

scripture says
"matt 24v29
"immediatley AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened etc...."
v 30 THEN they will SEE the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven.
so christ returns after the GT not before!

TO emphasis his return being visible Christ himself warns us about being decieved by false christs and false prophets during the GT

v23
" then if anyone says to you "look here is the Christ"or "there"
Do not believe it"

v26 " therefore if they say to you look he is in the desert, do not go out or "look he is in the inner rooms" do not believe it"is he warning us about those who say we know where he is he is hiding in secret?


in contrast
v27 tells us that the return of Christ will be obviously visible
"for as the lightening comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of man"

lightining is visible is it not?

what happens when he comes

Mark tells us Mark 13:26,27 NKJ
"then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory
and then he will send his angels and gather together his elect from the four winds from the farthest parts of earth to the farthest parts of heaven"

something big happens when Christ returns

paul specifies 1 thess 4: 15,16,17

"for this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means proceed those who are asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend with the voice of an Archangel, and with the trumpet of God and the dead in Christ will rise first
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air
And thus we shall always be with the Lord"

so we also have an audible aspect to the return of Christ the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God
it may be an unexpected arrival, but it is certainly not a silent one!
also if the coming of christ intiates a gathering to the lord how can the WTO claim to have the remant of his brothers in their organisation here on earth?

so what can we conclude
well it seems to me that Christ was warning us about the trickery of men, that we have all fell for, that is the teaching that the return of Christ will be an invisible presence an invisible undetected return of Christ, and also an exclusive one, to a intimate group.

notably when his disciples asked
when these things would take place and what would be the sign that he was about to return he warned them

luke 21: 8
"take heed that you do not be decieved, for many will come in my name saying " i am he and the time has drawn near"
therefore do not go after them"

have the WTO sold us that line
christ is here, we are the only ones that know this, and the time has drawn near?

i think they have.

so we must look to the present for the signs that he is about to return, and the day when "every eye shall see him"

Elihu

There are many scenarios, of course, on Christ's Return. Other than the specific dates advanced by the Witnesses and the Bible Students
the idea that Christ comes for his Church first appears in several Denominations Eschatology (Second Advent).

Witnesses and Bible Student draw a similar view to the Seventh Day Adventists who believe that Christ comes first for the Church or the Faithful with an 'Investigative Judgement'. Like the JWs and ABS, this early period of Christ's Return seeks to confirm those 'who are abiding in Christ', it is a time of 'cleansing to determine who are worthy of the first resurrection'. And so in the eschatology of the JWs and ABS you likewise hear terms like 'replacement's for crown losers' etc..

The Witnesses and ABS fall in the middle of the pack with regards a time period. Preterists and Partial Preterists can go back to Pentecost for the beginning of the Return Of Christ and it continues to the present and beyond. Most within the Protestants believe all events of Christ's Return are future. The Catholics have changed their views from once believing the millennium would begin around 1000 AD to believing it is future, at least in its fullest sense. Most believe Christ has been actively guiding and judging his Believers on earth since his Ascension.

agape

designs

My response

I will begin with Revelation 1:7... “Behold, he cometh with the clouds and every eye shall see him.” ...a good place to start.

This passage “appears” to be in direct contradiction with…“the kingdom of God cometh not with observation” (Luke 17:20) and, “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night” (1 Thessalonians 5:2). It becomes clear after careful observation of the Scriptures in both Testaments that the Bible more often than not speaks of seeing, sight and the eye in a figurative fashion more than it does in a literal sense… as Jesus often said, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” [Matt. 11:15; 13:9 (see vs. 15); 13:43; Mark 4:9, etc. The word see more often carries the meaning of “to recognize or perceive”. Scriptures like Matt. 13:14 and Mark 4:12 speak of those who can hear and see, but cannot understand or perceive what the Lord intends. They are blind and deaf (figuratively) and will remain so until such time as the Lord is pleased to reverse their situation, most likely, in the time of the resurrection. They are spoken of again figuratively by the prophet, speaking of that future time, when “the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.” [Isaiah 35:5] Passages like these can be spoken of as both literal and figurative…as the literally deaf and blind will be healed as well as those who cannot understand God’s plan presently. “And in that day [the day of 2 Peter 3:7] shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. The meek [teachable and submissive] also shall increase their joy in Jehovah, and the poor among men [Matt. 5:3] shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel… They also that erred in spirit [teaching, 1 John 4:1] shall come to understanding, and they that murmured [Matt. 20:11] shall learn doctrine.” (Isaiah 29: 18, 19, 24). The Apostle also says, “Let him that readeth understand” (Mark 13:14). Isaiah 6:9; 33:19; Luke 8:46; John 4:19; are also to the point as to the words “eyes to see” and their meaning. The rest of the world were then and currently are still blinded. John 12:40; Romans 11:7; 2 Corinthians 3:14; 2 Corinthians 4:4. The Apostle John writes of Jehovah… “No man hath seen God at any time…” (John 1:18), and yet he quotes Jesus in John 14:7, “If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him.” We know that He meant to see Him with your mental vision of understanding. Thus we understand Revelation 1:7 to mean “… and every eye [mind] shall see [perceive] Him.” John 12:45… “And he that seeth me seeth Him that sent me.”

When Jesus came in the flesh in His First Advent or presence, he was manifested to various ones at different times. Amazingly, to Simeon He was manifested while still a babe [Luke 2:30}; to Nathaniel after His first meeting with him [John 1:47-49]; to the Samaritan woman at the well [John 4:7-29]; to the Roman Centurion at the foot of the cross [Matthew 27:54]; and to Saul (Paul) only after his “ROAD TO DAMASCUS” run-in, [Acts 9:3-6].
After Jesus’ resurrection, Jehovah had Him manifested, not to all, but to select chosen witnesses for a later purpose. Those whose heart conditions were right received this opportunity… this is still the case I believe… and we receive Him sooner than mankind in general, who are totally blind to His presence. Isaiah 26:9 We “seek him early” because we can appreciate (by His grace) His future work.

Additionally, we might note that neither advent was marked by any outward manifestations to folks in general… both advents, both the visible and the invisible, did their work in the face of the general public without their knowing it was taking place, even though we are told as to the First Advent, that “all people were in expectation” as to the coming of the Anointed One. Even the Magi from the east came the distance, for they had heard of Him and they had seen His star. Although He was visible, fleshly, and perfect at that, few noticed Him as special in any sense of the word. [Isaiah 53:2] Clearly, it was their expectations that were wrong… Jesus came just as planned and just as prophesied. Likewise, in the Second Advent, He returns just as prophesied, but unknowing to the masses because He came not as they expect… i.e. visible and in the flesh.
I have spoken previously as to why He cannot return in the flesh… because He gave that flesh of His as “a ransom for all to be testified in due time”, “for the life of the world” [1 Timothy 2:6; John 6:51]. To take it up again would be equal to a priest [which He was] taking the sacrifice up off the altar and using it for some other purpose than that of making atonement. [see Hebrews 10:5] Furthermore, after His rising from death, He appeared to His disciples only for the space of 40 days, and in that time only 8 incidents are recorded, most of them being quite brief; thus, He was for the most part, even at that time “INVISIBLY PRESENT” except for those few exceptions when He by some supernatural means manifested Himself to them for the purpose of building their faith in the fact that He had actually returned from the death state. When He did appear, He was usually not recognized (THOUGHT TO BE A GARDENER; A STRANGER ON THE ROAD OR ON THE SHORE etc.] and only to Thomas did He appear with any wounds in His flesh. He was regularly recognized, not by His appearance, but by His mannerisms, like when He simply said, “Mary” at the tomb, and she recognized Him. He had to actually open the eyes of their understanding to get them to “SEE” Him as who He was, even though He was actually visible to them. Luke 24:16 “And their eyes (understanding) were holden that they should not know Him.” It was not until later that evening at the meal, that they were able to recognize Him as He broke bread with them, like He had done so many times before, [ vs. 30, 31], “and their eyes were opened, and they knew Him, and He vanished out of their sight”.

This peculiar happening accompanied most of His other “SIGHTINGS”… He vanished out of their sight. In the upper room with Thomas He appeared in their midst, although they were meeting in fear of the Pharisees, behind closed doors. He, as a raised spirit being [1 Peter 3:18] had the ability to materialize or dematerialize at will… or should we say as to the Father’s will. The Apostle speaks in Acts 1:3, “To whom also He showed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days…” Those two words, being seen, are translated from one Greek word, optanomai, to gaze at something remarkable, a vision. [Strongs 3700] What He did was what the angels did in the Old Testament, they themselves being spirit beings with spirit bodies, materialized so that they could be seen, felt, …could even eat as they did with Abraham. “Now the Lord is that Spirit” [2 Corinthians 3:17]. “…though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more” [2 Corinthians 5:16]. “And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (life-giving spirit…knox)” [1 Corinthians 15:45].


Other Proofs

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and was seeking to explain to him what it meant to be “BORN AGAIN”, He was speaking of changing to a new nature… not only what He would experience in His resurrection, but what He would offer to that whole anointed class if they would follow Him and suffer with and like Him… that they would also reign with Him. In John 3:8 He explained that one that was born again would be as the wind… i.e., invisible and only discernable by its actions as the wind in the limbs of a tree. Again, He spoke in John 14:19, “…yet a little while and the world seeth me no more”. He clearly intimates that His new nature would be like the Fathers’, and thus invisible to humans. He was to receive the Divine Nature [GOD’S NATURE] and promises His church or body members the same [Colossians 1:12; Hebrews 3:1; 1 Peter 4:13; 2 Peter 1:4].

Acts 2:33 and 1 Corinthians 15:50 state that Jesus is currently “highly exalted at the right hand of the Father”… while Philippians 2:9 declares that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” These passages would be in contradiction if He was raised and returning in the flesh.

Jesus was made “a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death” [Hebrews 2:9]. This phrase is used in Psalm 8:4-6 in reference to Adam, thus a reference to being human. In Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is spoken of after His resurrection as being the “express image of the Father’s person”, and in Colossians 1:18 He now has preeminence in all things.

Finally, it appears that the Apostles and disciples carried the thought that they were not clear, even in their old age just what the Divine Nature was, but that it was wonderful and that they would share in it. They knew they would, like Jesus, not be raised in the flesh… for as Paul taught, “there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body” [1 Corinthians 15:44]…and in vs. 49, “…as we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly”. John likewise, in 1 John 3:2 stated clearly, “It doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.” Thus He is a spirit being… He has a spirit body… He is invisible to humans.


Epilogue

The Apostles and some disciples (including the women who were privileged to be at the tomb) all had it manifested to them that He was present with them though He could not be seen without a special manifestation. (John 14:19) They did not try to show others who could not see, but did as occasioned by the Lord, seek to make His resurrection known to those who had “HEARING EARS” and “SEEING EYES”. (Acts 10: 40, 41) Likewise, in this time of His Second Presence, those who can see and thus perceive His presence, don’t scream it from a mountain top – for the blind cannot see it, and screaming at the blind does not aid their sight… but we continue to show it to those seekers that we can find who also have ears to hear. (Acts 10: 42-44; Luke 24: 45-48)
After He left them at His ascension, He never again was “SEEN” of them, or any other human, up to and including the present. Saul, on the road to Damascus, saw a bright light (Acts 9:3; also see 1 Timothy 6:16) and was knocked from his horse, temporarily blinded and permanently maimed – then he “SAW”… but not physically. He did understand the Lord’s new nature. Just as they understood more of Jehovah’s plan after becoming aware of the living presence of their Master, we too gain a great deal of understanding of His plans and purposes after recognizing not only the nature of Jesus in His resurrection, but also His invisible presence and object in returning… (Luke 19:10; John 20: 27-29)

Taking all this into consideration, we might notice then the word PAROUSIA and its relationship to the Greek words Epiphaneia and Apokolupsis. These two words carry separate but similar meanings… the former that of a bright shining or a manifestation and the latter that of a revealing. These words are used at times in relation to Parousia, wherein Parousia has direct reference to the Lord’s Second Advent. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed (Apokolupto – to take off the cover, disclose), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness (epiphaneia – a manifestation; brightness) of his coming (parousia – a being near; advent; presence). Compare this thought to Proverbs 4:18… a gradual brightness, growing brighter over time. Connecting this thought to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3, “But of the times and seasons brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you, for yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:8) so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as a travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” Jesus connected His PAROUSIA with a general time of trouble “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be”… in Matthew 24:21…the “times and seasons” of Thessalonians therein being the various features of the fulfillment… i.e. not all things become apparent to all people at once.

thanks for those replies,

i have to say the invisible presence is a mystery to me.
when i read matt 24 i do not see any indication of it but a stark warning by Christ to his followers that there will be those who say that the Lord is present but hidden.
he warns do not follow them!

just to clarify my thoughts on this

i do not believe scripture is indicating that we will see christ in the flesh again
as you said Jonalfred christ will not return in the flesh of course not , however that does not mean that the nations will never see his glory and power
stephen as an earthly person seen God and Jesus at his right hand did he not?

i think scripture tells us that we will not only see him in his GLORY but his arrival will be accompanied by a great noise an announcement
the voice of an archangel and the trumpet call of God

unless of course there are two comings
a secret invisible one then another dramatic one!
"Look he is coming on the clouds and every eye will see him"
scripture says they will see his arrival and they will mourn.

the wto has taught us that this scripture does not mean what it actually says
why , because they want us to believe in an invisible Coming.

notably when Christ arrives he makes things happen he judges , he speaks, people answer!

when he seperates the sheep and the goats

" when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with him, He will sit on the throne of His glory
All the nations will be Gathered before him and he will seperate them one from another
then the king will say to those on his right hand "Come you blessed of my Father inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation opf the world

37 " the righteous will answer him saying "Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you or thirsty and give you a drink?

we have dialogue happening, according to the WTO is that just another analogy or is it real as scripture says?

seriously can anyone here find a scripture that says Christ will return invisibly
the bible clearly says every eye will see him.

Elihu

Well Elihu

he said, I go away and the world seeth me no more

It is stated he comes as a thief in the night (and folks dont' see a thief in the night)

and he said something about coming without observation...

he said he would come "in like manner" as he left... and when he left he was only seen by the few... not the world at large...

so I guess there is some room for discussion

Hello Brother Elihu,

Excellent topic, and I thought I would take the opportunity to share what Sister Steadfast posted about a week ago over at e-W. It helps to put into perspective the timing of events when Jesus comes to collect his chosen ones.

Agape
Jesh

Let's look at the context in which the shout of peace and security is made:

1 Thessalonians 4-5 – 'Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that you may not sorrow just as the rest who have no hope.

For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus Christ God will bring with him.

For this is what we tell you by the Lord's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death];

because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Afterward, we the living who are surviving will together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.

Now, as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah's day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: "Peace and security! then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress comes upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.

But you brothers, you are not in darkness, so that day should overtake you as it would thieves, for you are the sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses.'

The context of the cry of peace and security seems to be related to the time when the rapture/first resurrection takes place. When does scripture say this will happen?

Jesus said in Matthew 24:29, 31 – Immediately after the tribulation of those days and he (Jesus) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

Paul tells us at 1 Corinthians exactly when the elect are resurrected and changed.

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

John reveals in Revelation what the last trumpet is. It is the seventh.

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

Revelation 11:12 – And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: 'come on up here.' and they went up into heaven in the cloud and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 – The seventh angel blew his trumpet and loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: 'The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.'

Revelation 11:18 – And the nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and to reward your servants the prophets, and the saints and those who revere your name, small and great; and to destroy those who corrupt the earth.

Revelation 20:6 – Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over such the second death has no power, but they shall be the priests of God and of his Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

So the timeframe for the declaration is set at the end of the tribulation when all things are brought to the final conclusion before Armageddon.

What prompts men to shout 'peace and security?' What mindset are they at this very unique time?

Babylon the Great is destroyed:

Revelation 17:16 – And the ten horns (the ten kings that finally received a kingdom – verse 12) that you saw, and the wild beast (the one world government), those will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire.'

Even more than Babylon the Great being destroyed, one last enemy stands in Satan's way of being worshipped in toto by the entire planet. What is the enemy? The two witnesses, the ones preaching the message of Matthew 24:14:

'And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness and then the end will come.'

This preaching has been a thorn in the side of the beast and his false prophet for almost 3-1/2 years, as these ones seem to be untouchable:

Revelation 11 – 'And if anyone wants to harm them, fire issues forth from their mouths and devours their enemies; and if anyone should want to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. These have authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.'

But now verse 7 indicates a new development:

'And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss (Revelation 17:8 and Revelation13:1) will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.'

This is also confirmed in Revelation 13:7 –

'And there was granted it (the beast) to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them.'

Now comes a time for their rejoicing as you can almost hear them say:

'Praise Satan! Babylon the Great is destroyed! We are finally rid of all this corruptive, confusing, deceptive religion, including those pesky witnesses who have been running around for 3-1/2 years preaching this message of nonsense.

Their false message that our earthly kingdom is wrong and that the kingdom is really heavenly, was irritating and divisive. Even some of our global citizens became confused with their incessant message, going so far as refusing to worship our emperor and his christ, who have accomplished this earthly paradise that we see all around us!

At first, we were convinced that these preachers were untouchable, but look! we were finally able to kill them off! Our global celebration has been raucous with much feasting and gift-giving in honor of our final victory. It's been a glorious time, and now, our future looks bright, everything that Satan promised it would be!'

Revelation 11 says concerning these two witnesses –

'And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt where their Lord was also impaled. And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to on another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.'

You can hear the world shout:

Lucifer is God! Let us praise his most holy name! And now, let us shout peace and security for everything that has stood in the way of final victory has been destroyed!

But something very unexpected happens as Revelation 11 continues –

'And after three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them, and they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: "Come on up here," and they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

And in that hour a great earthquake occurred.'

Their cry of peace and security is short-lived as destruction is instantly upon them. There is a price to pay for refusing to heed the message of the two witnesses and repent.

The price is the second death at Armageddon.

Are you proposing that Christ does NOT come for his Church first?

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, (the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to (his own slaves the prophets) is indeed brought to a finish)

Notice in this verse it says Sacred Secret of God which has something to do with a good news(not a fear based message Witnesses proclaim now) but (an Everlasting Good News) which he tells his own private slaves the prophets? For this to happen, he is telling his slaves a (very sacred secret), that was sealed up till the time of the end, remember?

Amos 2: 7
For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless HE HAS REVEALED HIS CONFIDENTIAL MATTER TO HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS.

We all have been waiting eagerly for the sacred secret and the revealing of Jesus to become manifest to God's slaves. When it is uncovered, who will believe and even listen? Most did not believe when they saw Christ standing right in front of them, so why should they believe his slaves trying to reveal to them the sacred secret of the Everlasting Good News ?

New Heart

Hi Jonalfred

apologies if my last post seemed somewhat dismissive of your previous post, it was not intended.
i value your comments with the highest regard.
what you have written is also what i have been taught, but as i said initially recent threads have drawn my mind to re examine this teaching.

i am not debating this subject from an absolute position but moreso a speculative one.
you rightly say there is room for discussion and i may well be proved incorrect in my questioning of this teaching , but all i ask is let it be by scripture and not soley on WT teachings.

the invisible presence has been a foundation for the 1914 doctrine but notably the 1914 doctrine is false so perhaps the invisible presence is also false.

Christ did say that the world would behold him no more and that his disciples would see him.
because where he was they would be also.
which they will be when they are raptured or resurrected.
but that does not necessarily mean that the nations would not see him arrive in his glory with all the angels does it?.

again, as you say the angels did say he would return in the same manner that he ascended, but did they mean visibly or secretly or both. did they mean he would return to the earth? no!

just to reason on that a little.
he did ascend from the midst of his followers but applying the exact detail of the ascension to the return would mean that the world would never know he had returned.
if he is present then is revealed as the WTO teaches why do we not see it written in matt 24
we simply read
" then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn
and they Will See The Son Of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

when i read that verse i visualise a fanfare, millions of angels, not just the two that watched him ascend, Christ in his Glory, a glorious King arriving to establish his Kingdom.

it just reads like a major earth shattering event to me rather than a quiet backdoor arrival.

another scripture which the WTO has forcefully taken hold of as applying to them is the selection of the faithful slave.
they claim this happened after the arrival, but how can that be when scripture clearly says that the slave was Made ruler over his household before the masters return?

" 45 who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master MADE ruler over his household, to give them food in due season.
46 blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing"

i think that we have been mislead to believe that the slave is empowered when christ arrives, where as scripture says he is already giving food at the proper time and the master finds him doing so when he arrives.
he is appointed over all his belongings must refer to the position as ruling as kings and priests! rev1 :6

when the holy spirit was poured out on the apostles and disciples in the upper room Christ was in heaven not present with them.
he empowered them from heaven by sending the holy spirit to enable them to more effectively do his work
so it is not necessary for him to be present to empower his slave or his people.
when he arrives he judges his people first but that does not mean that he does it secretly or in an instance.
when Christ arrives a great deal of things happen, he collects the elect from the four corners of the earth
he seperates the sheep and the goats
he kills the beast and he abyses satan
so some considerable time will be involved will it not ?

with regard to who can recognise that Christ is about to arrive we read mark 14:35

"watch therefore for you do not know when the master of the house is coming.etc.................................
36 "lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping"
37 "and what i say to you i say to all : WATCH"

so if we are all to watch for signs of his imminent arrival then it must be reasonable that we can all recognise that it is about to happen and be awake, not only a select group?

i am considering, are we being told to look for an elite class who christ secretly manifests himself to and refines and commisions to preach, when in fact what we may well be looking at here is a future outpouring of the holy spirit ( Joel) to initiate the preaching work of the remnant or as rev 11 describes as the two witnesess,
as we know the preach unhindered to the nations until they have completed their work then they are killed by the beast, resurrected then raptured.
as 2thess explains " we the living who are surviving etc will be together with them caught up in the air to meet the Lord...."

could it be that the rapture of the "two Witnesess", after the preaching work, coincides with the arrival of Christ? and is not initiated by his arrival but by an outpouring of the holy spirit ( Joel).
that outouring is the gift described by the parable of the talents
each one is given a measure of talents and is expected to use them. His performance is judged by the master on his arrival.
matt 25:14

that would then allow for a time period wherby the everlasting gospel would be preached then the end would come when Christ arrives and gathers his elect and and seperates the sheep and the goats. on the basis of who helped them during their preaching work.
as it stands our understanding of the secret presence nullifies the global impact of the second coming of Christ and i think the ordering of events as per scripture.

christ warned

" then if anyone says to you "look here is the Christ!, or there, do not believe it"
" for false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders to decieve if possible even the elect"
" see i have told you beforehand
" therfore if they say to you " Look he is in the desert" do not go ouit
"Look , he is in the inner rooms!, do not believe it"

" For as the lightning comes from thje east and flashes to the west, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man"
" for wherever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together"

that warning sounds to me like a warning about phony secret arrival.

i may be wrong but it is worth discussing is it not

Agape

to everyone here

Elihu

I really enjoyed your summation - that's the first time i've seen the destruction of Babylon The Great - religion - as being the cause of the nations saying "peace and secruity" - it makes a lot of sense - as religion is a major dividing factor in having peace

I cant quite accept the wto teaching that they are the FS - Jesus said there would be many false prophets to come in his name - and you will recognize them by their fruit - the wto is displaying some very bad fruitage - they make the excuse they are not perfect - but what is majorly missing with this excuse is lack of humility - they dont even admit when they are wrong and apologize -

I feel the pattern that has been established in the Bible is - Jehovah has always miraculously approached his servents - Enoch, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Elijah, Moses, all the OT prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus, Apostles - there was indisputable proof they were acting for Jehovah - I dont see this with the GB of the wto - so it seems only logical to me that this would be the case in the last days when the most momentus time in history is to occur - I feel the Joel prophecy comes into play here - of course there will be many who do not want to acknowledge these ones appoved by Jehovah - just as Pharoh would not comply with the miricles of Moses and AAron, and the Pharisees and many in Jesus time wouldnt accept the miricles of Jesus - even though people were being brought back from the dead, healed of all sorts of diseases and ailments - it was as if they were blind to what was happening right infront of their eyes

Elihu, I think you're onto something. I think it's really very simple, that Yeshua was speaking of the signs of his coming, and only at his coming would he be "present". It seems to me that this mysterious invisible "presence" visible to only the "elect" would give the false "elect" lots of opportunities to make all kinds of outlandish claims regarding the "presence" of Christ.

The WT has based this "invisible presence" on the premise that Christ would return to judge the House of God, throw out the money changers (1919, supposedly), and begin ruling in heaven. Also at the same time Satan and his demons would be cast out of heaven, and this undoubtedly results in a tribulation on the earth as never seen before. The question is, why would these events entail an "invisible presence"? As far as I'm concerned, Yeshua is present as King right now, and has been since he was resurrected and lifted up to the right hand of God, waiting for all his enemies to be brought together under his feet, and at that time would he be able to act, and thereby come back to earth "on the clouds" with all the army of angels with him.

I also agree that Jesus did not need to be "present" in order for the Holy Spirit to be poured out in the upper room. The same kind of outpouring of Holy Spirit is due for the conclusion of the age.

The timing of the claim of "true peace and security" really helps to sort things out. If that does not happen until the two witnesses are killed (and I still believe that this applies to the 7,000 who "have not bent the knee to Baal" who fall in the earthquake of Revelation chapter 11) then we could realistically not expect Yeshua to be visible until his "coming on the clouds". Of course there will be many attempts by Satan and his minions to counterfeit that arrival with all sorts of trickery and deception, but Yeshua said that it would be like "lightning that shines from the eastern parts over to the western parts". This would mean that he would be visible to everyone on earth at the same time, something that not even HAARP technology can accomplish.

Think about this, Yeshua kept stressing that he is coming "at an hour you do not think to be it". Haven't JW's been expecting Yeshua for many decades? Aren't they "on the watch" right now, as we all are? Evidently his coming would be at a time when it would really not be expected, and it would make sense to me that maybe we don't quite understand the "tribulation". Maybe we should consider that the tribulation will come in stages, for instance, when WWIII breaks out, everybody will know that the tribulation has started. But the war will end, and what might be the result? A New World Order. After all, that is their plan for world conquest, "Order out of Chaos", isn't it? I would venture to say that everyone who has been misled on the timing of these events, particularly JW's, will be expecting Christ to arrive immediately after WWIII, but instead, they will be faced with a New Order quite different from the one they were expecting.

Revelation goes on to relate that plagues will come from God (and the Two Witnesses) upon the men who have the mark of the beast. The way I see it is that this is surely a continuance of the tribulation, because these men do not repent in spite of the severity of these plagues which are "unusually great", instead, they are even more angered. We can just imagine powerful men when they are angered and what they are capable of doing. It could result in a massive genocide campaign. The reason I feel this way is because of the 11th chapter of Daniel. The KON receives "reports" or "things heard" which may very well be coming from the two witnesses, and it would cause him to "go forth in a great rage in order to annihilate and to devote many to destruction".

It's not until these Two Witnesses are dead that those who were tormented by them will "rejoice and send gifts to one another", and will make the claim "true peace and security". Of course that is the point where they are raised after 3 1/2 days and "their enemies beheld them". It seems at this point that all the kingdom heirs have been taken up into heaven at the same time and the Kingdom of Christ is complete.

Jesh

Hi Billy!

Just to say that I did not write that, Steadfast did, but what it is saying is that it's not just the destruction of BTG that has them saying "true peace and security", but the death of the two witnesses that were tormenting them. Obviously, their joy will end after a celebration of 84 hours.

Jesh

John,

No I am not suggesting that, Scriptures seem fairly explicit on the primary reasons and sequence of Christ's Return- Matthew 25; 1Cor.15'' 1Thess.4; Rev.7 etc.. My point was that in terms of duration
or the length of time allowed for Christ's Second Advent that the 3 Groups are similar with the 'Investigative Judgement' period taking some time but not centuries or simply weeks or months as other groups hold to.

agape

designs

some very interesting points brothers and sisters, and i had a thoughts today about some key scriptures.

i know some of you have already highlighted these but i think it worth repeating

the WTO has taught us that christ arrived invisibly in 1914, and chose the F&D slave
in 1919 after the WTO had been imprisoned under false charges they were released.
the WTO claim that rev 11 was being fulfilled and the start of a monumentous preaching campaign was initiated as per the two witnesess.

the question that came to mind about the above was with regard to how the preaching work is initiated in such a dramatic manner.

rev 11:3
" and i will give power to my two witnesess, and they will prophesy 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth"


as has already been stated by Jeshurun this must relate to the days of Elijah and his gathering back Israel to the true God
and i think we see that foretold future event in many scriptures but these two seem very important

" and it shall come to pass in the last days says God
that i will pour out my spirit on all flesh
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
your young men shall see visions
your old men shall dream dreams
and on my menservents and on my maidservents i will pour out my spirit in those days
and they shall prophesy
i will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath
blood and fire and vapour of smoke
the sun shall be turned in to darkness
and the moon into blood
before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lordand it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

so are we reading about the power given to the two witnesess and those who listen to them?

Malachi 4:5

behold i will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great day of the Lord
and he will turn the hearts of fathers to the children
and the hearts of children to their fathers
lest i come and strike the earth with a curse"

now if christ arrived invisibly in 1914 and then initiated the preaching work, why does scripture tell us that it will be before he arrives that he will empower the two witnesess and pour out his spirit on every sort of flesh?
why does scripture tell us that it will be
before " the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord"
or was the awesome day of the Lord an invisible one that no-one percieved after the event except the WTO.

Elihu

Well Brothers and Sisters,

Another thing for us to chew on.

I just got this from Sister Steadfast:


1. The final sealing of the 144,000 takes place during the 6th seal. (Revelation 6:12-7:4)

2. The angels don't begin to blow the trumpets until the 7th seal. (Revelation 8:1 and 6)

3. The opening of the 6th seal seems to be describing the great tribulation since the trumpets have not yet started to blow.

My question: Does Jesus come to the temple to complete the final sealing of the 144,000 visibly, or invisibly?