Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Good morning :hibye: everyone :grouphug: on this rainy but warm day ... :rain:

Got a question for you on something that I discovered yesterday and am peculating ... :coffeeread: :thinking::huh:

In the NWT in these scriptures ...:read:

Rom. 6:6
Eph. 4:22,24
Col. 3:9,10

The word 'personality' is used ...

My question is ...

Is this the RIGHT word to use ...? :dontknow:

I have some thoughts but was hoping to hear from some others before I said mine so that I wouldn't influence anyone ... :giverose:

I'll leave it at there ... for now ... ;):whistle:

Luv to all ...

BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Man oh man!

This is a discussion of the Greek word anthropos.

In other words anthropos is human, rather than a male. A specific male person is aner.
'Personality' is a far stretch.

vicky

Hi Vicky ... FARTHER THAN YOU MIGHT THINK ... :shocked:

yep you got the right word :thumbup: ... knew I could count on you piglet ... :piggy:

I am right now in the process of writing down some thoughts on this ... :shocked:

I was rather shocked (in a bad way) as to the meaning of 'personality' and where it comes from and such ... :shocked::readthis:

Maybe I'll put up what I have already written ...? Then if there are any comments as I keep on a typing people will have a chance to comment or add their input before I ramble on too long ...?

What cha think?

Thanks so much for your comment ... :post:

luv me ... :sheepy: ;)

I think you should ramble on.
They could rightly translate it as new person.
Someon made totally anew.
Personality makes it sound like just an internal change.
I think this might also have a reflection on our idea of the resurrection, changed in the twinkling of an eye, and also being born again.
If we all have to be new humans then surely we are all born again.

vicky

Okee dokee ... here goes some of my research so far ... love to see how ya'll feel about it ... :love:

In seeking to find the right word for a given situation, sometimes we have to really sit and think about it don’t we? For choosing the right word(s) is very important to the meaning we want to convey is it not? :giverose:

If we choose a wrong word or phrase our entire meaning can be lost or, more importantly, the listener or reader can draw an erroneous conclusion, a conclusion that can take them far from where we want them to go … I think that this is perhaps something we need to consider in the choice of the word ‘personality’ in the Scripture at Eph. 4:22,24 in the New World Translation.

On the surface of it, one may think that this may be ‘picky’ or not really that important. However, I cannot help but reflect, in principle, on the Scripture at Luke 16:10 …

(BBE) He who is true in a little, is true in much; he who is false in small things, is false in great.

(Darby) He that is faithful in the least is faithful also in much; and he that is unrighteous in the least is unrighteous also in much.

(CEV) Anyone who can be trusted in little matters can also be trusted in important matters. But anyone who is dishonest in little matters will be dishonest in important matters.

I think that this Scripture could apply in principle as to the rendering of words that are translated from Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic in English don't you ..? :read::redface:

When one makes a claim that one’s translation is the most accurate out there, based on original writings, then wouldn’t it be good if they did so?

w81 12/15 p. 11 Your Bible—How It Was Produced

The 1981 edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is the culmination of 35 years of studious translation and careful revision. The translating project was initiated back in 1946, and by 1960 both the Hebrew and the Greek portions of God’s Word had been rendered into English directly from the original languages. During those years of translation a great deal of careful research was done by the New World Bible Translation Committee to assure that the translation was internally consistent in word choice and that the best possible readings of various manuscripts were used in the text. Jehovah’s Witnesses, who use the New World Translation as their primary Scriptural reference, have greatly appreciated and benefited from this scholarly work.

It is the desire of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, which holds the copyright to the New World Translation, that this excellent translation be kept up to date. The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures aims to render God’s Word accurately and literally in harmony with the living, changing languages currently understood by its readers. This translation values reliable transmission of God’s Word above stylistic or literary considerations that mark many modern idiomatic or paraphrased Bible versions.

si p. 319 par. 31 Study Number 6—The Christian Greek Text of the Holy Scriptures

31 Of further interest are the comments of Sir Frederic Kenyon in his book Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, 1962, on page 249: “We must be content to know that the general authenticity of the New Testament text has been remarkably supported by the modern discoveries which have so greatly reduced the interval between the original autographs and our earliest extant manuscripts, and that the differences of reading, interesting as they are, do not affect the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith.” As shown on page 309 in the chart, “Sources for the Text of the New World Translation—Christian Greek Scriptures,” all related documents have been drawn on to provide an accurately translated English text. Valuable footnotes back up all these faithful renderings. The New World Bible Translation Committee used the best results of Bible scholarship developed through the centuries in producing its fine translation. What confidence we may have today that the Christian Greek Scriptures, as they are now available to us, do indeed contain “the pattern of healthful words” as written down by the inspired disciples of Jesus Christ. May we keep holding to these precious words in faith and in love!—2 Tim. 1:13.

So, has this ‘careful, ‘faithful’ and ‘accurate’ rendering been done in the case of the Scripture at Eph. 4:22, 24 where it reads …

22 that YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.

What do we tend to think of when we think of ‘personality’ …? Is it not the various ‘aspects’ to a person … and can not our ‘personality’ CHANGE according to the situation we may find ourselves in … and do we not want to ‘change our personality’ … make it over and into one that reflects the will of God and Christ?

So, what IS the Greek word and meaning used for ‘personality’ as it is translated in the NWT?

As Vicky already mentioned ... ;):P

Anthropos

man-faced, i.e. a human being:- certain, man.

Before going any further if may be good to find out how other Bible translations render this word ‘anthropos’ …

(BBE) That you are to put away, in relation to your earlier way of life, the old man, which has become evil by love of deceit; And put on the new man, to which God has given life, in righteousness and a true and holy way of living.

(ESV) to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

So, these Bible translations, and many more I looked at, seem to hold true to the ‘original Greek language or word’ using the words, ‘man’ and ‘self’ … pertaining the human being or man …

Since the NWT uses ‘personality’ for their translating of this word perhaps we should look at where the word ‘personality’ comes from and the meaning of it and see if this is a better and more accurate render of the original Greek …?

From my researching so far I have discovered that the word for ‘personality’ comes from the Latin word … ‘persona’ and has the meaning of ‘mask’ … (there does not appear to be a Greek rendering of 'personality' that I have been able to find yet) :blush:

Here are some interesting quotes I found as to the meaning of ‘personality’ …

“The study of personality can be understood as the study of ‘masks’ that people wear. These are the personas that people project and display, but also includes the inner parts of psychological experience which we collectively call our ‘self’.”

“From the 17th century, the term refers to a persona in a theatrical play, and from the 18th century, to a personality or individual, considered as possessor of a certain role or certain faculties, often slightly derogatory ("quite a character"), and hence an individual's peculiar traits, a personal "character" or character structure (moral character).”

“Persona literally means "mask ", although it does not usually refer to a literal mask but to the "social masks" all humans supposedly wear.

A persona, in the word's everyday usage, is a social role or a character played by an actor. The word derives from the Latin for "mask" or "character", derived from the Etruscan word "phersu", with the same meaning.”

“The persona is also the mask or appearance one presents to the world. It may appear in dreams under various guises (see Carl Jung and his psychology). Importantly, the persona, used in this sense, is not a pose or some other intentional misrepresentation of the self to others. Rather, it is the self as self-construed, and may change according to situation and context.”


It seems not only does the WT agree with the sentiments in these statements … but even takes it one step further …


cl chap. 22 p. 227 par. 20 Is “the Wisdom From Above” at Work in Your Life?

19 “Not hypocritical.” The Greek word for “hypocrite” can refer to “an actor who played a role.” In ancient times, Greek and Roman actors wore large masks when performing. Hence, the Greek word for “hypocrite” came to apply to one putting on a pretense, or one playing false. This aspect of godly wisdom should influence not just how we treat fellow worshipers but also how we feel about them
20 The apostle Peter noted that our “obedience to the truth” should result in “unhypocritical brotherly affection.” (1 Peter 1:22) Yes, our affection for our brothers must not be put on for show. We do not wear masks or play roles in order to deceive others. Our affection must be genuine, heartfelt. If it is, we will earn the trust of our fellow believers, for they will know that we are what we appear to be. Such sincerity paves the way for open and honest relationships between Christians and helps to create a trusting atmosphere in the congregation.

So, would it be a good thing for a true Christian then to ‘wear a mask’ … or ‘hide what they are’ so to speak …?
Ps. 26:4 …

(Darby) I have not sat with vain persons, neither have I gone in with dissemblers;

(ESV) I do not sit with men of falsehood, nor do I consort with hypocrites.

Or as the NWT puts it …

4 I have not sat with men of untruth;
And with those who hide what they are I do not come in.

Now, I have to ask myself a serious question here …

Who was the FIRST ONE to ‘disguise’ themselves or ‘hide what they were’ … or to ‘use a mask’ …?

I think all will know this answer, but let’s go to God’s Word anyway at Gen. 3:1 …

(ASV) Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?

Rev. 12:9 identifies this ‘wearer of a mask’ or ‘master of disguise as none other than Satan the Devil!

(ASV) And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

What I find rather sad is that just as the Devil ‘hid’ who is was and his intent from the first man and woman … they ended up ‘hiding’ from our God as well … Gen. 3:8:(

(ASV) And they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Jehovah God amongst the trees of the garden.

In light of the account of Satan in the Garden of Eden I thought this an interesting paragraph in this article …

w52 2/1 p. 68 Avoid Shame by Study

What a reversal! Now they seek a disguise to hide their former pretense of being a minister! Just as two wrongs do not make a right, so two disguises do not make a right identity. First they pretend to be ministers of God, next they pretend to be tillers of soil, while all the time they are ministers of Satan. It is no cause for wonder. “Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (2 Cor. 11:14, 15, NW) But when they fail in this deception, they shift to another disguise, rather than admitting their falseness.

Did Christ Jesus agree with this type of reasoning? I thought that the Scripture at Matt. 23:25-28 might fit here …

25 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of plunder and immoderateness. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside of it also may become clean.
27 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

I found it very telling, and seeming to be in full harmony with the real meaning of ‘personality’ or ‘persona’, what Greek word for ‘hypocrite’ means …

Hupokrites

From 5271; an actor under an assumed character (stage-player), e.e. (fig.) a dissembler (“hypocrite”):- hypocrite

Hupokrinomai

To decide (speak or act) under a false part, i.e. (fig.) dissemble (pretend):- feign.

So, for Jesus to use this word ‘hypocrite’ with the Scribes and Pharisees shows that they were not what they were pretending to be … they were wearing a ‘mask’ … one that made them look like they were ‘righteous’ … they their Father was Jehovah … but in reality they were totally opposite to what they appeared … their Father was the Devil and they offered death instead of life to the people!

That is no doubt one of the reasons why our Lord warned us to be careful of who were listen to or believe in as he said at Matt. 7:15 …

(KJVA) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

(Murdock) Beware of false prophets; who come to you in the garb of sheep, but internally they are rapacious wolves.

Does not ‘rapacious’, having the meaning of being given to plunder, grasping, greedy and predatory really show the mind and heart-set that the Scribes and the Pharisees, indeed religious leaders in general, have … the same mind and heart that Satan, the evil deceiver has as well?

This would appear to be so according to 2Cor. 11:13, 14 …

(CEV) 2Co 11:13 Anyway, they are no more than false apostles and dishonest workers. They only pretend to be apostles of Christ.
And it is no wonder. Even Satan tries to make himself look like an angel of light.

(Darby) 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And it is not wonderful, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

(GW) 13 People who brag like this are false apostles. They are dishonest workers, since they disguise themselves as Christ's apostles. 14 And no wonder, even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Yes, ‘wearing a mask’ … hiding what we are … disguising or transforming ourselves in this way, be it from ourselves or others … can lead to no good can it?

So, instead of ‘putting on THIS kind of PERSONALITY … may we do as is mentioned at 2Cor. 13:5 …

(BBE) Make a test of yourselves, if you are in the faith; make certain of yourselves. Or are you not conscious in yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, if you are truly Christ's?

(Darby) examine your own selves if ye be in the faith; prove your own selves: do ye not recognise yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed ye be reprobates?

(EMTV) Scrutinize yourselves as to whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you are reprobates?

Yes, if do not want to wear a mask or just have a ‘persona’ of being a servant of God and Christ, then we need to look at … HONESTLY examine, test, and scrutinize ourselves deep inside as to the REAL ‘people’ that we are … ALL aspects of ourselves … not just what we show to the world around us …

So do we want to ‘put on the new personality’ …

Or …

Do we want to put on the “NEW MAN” …

I am thinking along the lines of putting on the SPIRITUAL “MAN” … and NOT just the ‘persona’ of being a ‘spiritual man…

For is ‘he’ (she) not who our God and his Son is looking to SEE?!

This ‘man’ is also connected to even more important things … but that is another subject for another time!! 

Well, that's all I have for now ... :giverose:

Bet your glad my rambling has finally come to an end!:P;):whistle::siskiss:

Luv always BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

interesting conversation between a sheep and a piggy :love:

I'm glad to see this also... very interesting.

I think the word refers to the "fallen human nature"... the degraded and sinful nature we're born with. For the spirit class it was an actual putting off of not only (to the best of their ability) the fallen-ness... but of the human nature all together... According to Paul, those with the faith of Abraham are reckoned as justified in God's sight, and this was merely for the purpose of placing that reckoned human nature (reckoned perfect) on the altar of sacrifice, so that they might be privileged to suffer with Christ that they might reign with Him. The new man in other places is refered to as the new creature (Gr. ktisis).

Jesus too had an old man... not a fallen nature... but a human nature, and He put it to death that the new begotten spirit nature might be nourished and might grow in grace and knowledge, until such time as it would be born into the spirit realm... His followers experienced much of the same.. not being perfect, but being counted as perfect because of their belief and acceptance of Him as their Savior.

Those who tried and failed are spoken of by James as being doubleminded... therefore unstable... it is the same principle really, as the spirit of God and the spirit of Mammon... of truth and error... of love and fear... for both sweet and bitter waters cannot emit from the same fount.

The WTS have tried to make this anthropos a thing that they create and control in their membership... after all, one is really baptized into the Society... and dedicate themselves to IT... not to God --- so why would not they be infilled with the personality of the Society in their very person... a travesty!

I'm standing back in awe of the sheep and the piggy.

Also, I would like to know how did my beloved Vickie become a pig? LOL

Thanks, that does make sense. All things are made new in Christ. Out with the old in with the new. Christ transforms us when we actually let him work on us.

I've wondered that too... but a cute little piggy she is... and smart too... not likely to end up the bacon on someones proverbial table...

Hi there interesting thoughts jonelfred ...

Well between the 'baaaa baaas' and the 'oink oinks' ... we wee animal folk can come up with some pretty interesting stuff huh ... ;) :sheepy: :piggy:

Another thought that came to me in reading some comments today from ya'll, including you sisleisha ... was verse 23 of Ephesians ... to show it is MORE than just our personality quirks and traits that need to be made NEW!

Eph. 4:23 ...

(BBE) And be made new in the spirit of your mind,

(CEV) Let the Spirit change your way of thinking

(DRB) And be renewed in spirit of your mind:

(GNB) Your hearts and minds must be made completely new,

Yes, not only do we need to change 'bad habits' ... but we have to begin to THINK DIFFERENTLY!!

We are no longer 'fleshly' ... but are seeking to be SPIRITUAL PERSONS ... and that involves retraining or renewing our very thoughts does it not!!

The Greek word for 'renew' is ...

ananeoo

from 303 and a der. of 3501; to renovate, .e. reform:- renew.

ana

In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by impl.) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.

Now, when we 'renovate' something what do we do ...?

Do we not tear out and get rid of the old rotting or mildewy or worn out stuff ... and replace it with the new, clean and solid materials ... (woofette you would know about that kind of stuff ... ;) )

The dictionary meaning of 'renovate' ...

To make as good as new; repair, to renew, refresh, reinvigorate

Another interesting thought is about the word

reform ...

To make better by removing abuses, altering, etc., restore to a better condition. To improve morally; change for the better

Then the second meaning of 'reform' is ...

To form again ...

I couldn't help but think of Jehovah being our POTTER ... and REFORMING US ... MOLDING US into a better person ... a spiritual person ... making us an 'honorable vessel' that He could use in a good and worthy way ...

Yes, we need to REVERSE our course ... go in a new direction ... one that takes us toward God and Christ ... one that puts off old practices, desires, goals that are fleshly ... and leans toward a more spiritual outlook with everlasting life in view instead of the temporary life of this world ...

Yes ...

OUT WITH THE OLD ...

and

IN WITH THE NEW ...

And what a 'glorious house' we could become! :D

Just some more thoughts I had that I wanted to share ... :giverose:

Tried to keep the 'rambling' to a 'minimum' and the 'rattling' to a 'dull roar'!! :P;):whistle:

Luv as always ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

PS ... sisleisha ... the BBE Bible stands for ... Bible In Basic English

well I was Thinking :thinking: and thinking :thinking::thinking: so this is of course just my humble opinion :love: but I believe the core of the matter is our heart and the work Jesus does on that. Personality can be such a superficial word really and can be cultivated for the good --or the bad. I have seen different books and tapes teaching people how to put on personality traits designed to manipulate people for many different reasons--and then jeffrey dalmer comes to mind. I saw a History program with a bit about him and the clean handsome look of him and his ''sweet and charming ways'' so the word personality in itself is not necessarily a word meaning good things--or even a reflection of the true person-- but the real potential in people goes far beyond personality and lies at the heart of who they truly are and not who they seem to be. It is also my belief that Jesus makes our heart soft and responsive to him as well as to others as we listen to his soft voice inside us--warming us and motivating us to be like him and at the very core of us where our motives and values lie is the real us. It is very possible to hide who one truly is behind a personality--hence the 'mask' but Jesus pulls us into truth--our own truth and his :love: just a peanut--...love to everyone tonight and always--wolfie.....

What? What do you mean? Are you sure it doesn't stand for Best Bible Ever? :rofl:

I enjoyed everyone's comments on this thread. And the scriptures you cited, your thoughts and comments BR were (imho) insightful. :giverose:

How clever they must have thought they were when translating the NWT. No wonder the letter I got back a couple years ago from WTBTS tried to discourage me from using other Bibles! :readthis: Now the society says, "no research outside their own publications." Goodness, what next? :shocked: I feel bad for my folks and others who can't get out of that box. :cry: The organization has tried to make it impossible in every way imaginable to have a personal relationship with our Creator and his son. :rant:

Thank you for the wonderful fellowship and freedom to learn that the P.C. encourages. Blessings from above!

:grouphug: :heartbeat:

My Bible states the Wolfie :wolfsmile: shall lie down with the baaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaaa... :sheepy: just didn't expect it this soon... :D

BR... thanks for all of the WORD-WORK

I like the word Restitution (to restore) Acts 3:19-21 shows that this is the work of the kingdom toward mankind... to make them new

and yes, we are to put on the mind of Christ... or to behead ourselves and take Him as our Head...

we've all got a lot of work to do....

:heartbeat: :heartbeat: :bouncyhearts:

Great work Sisters!:heartbeat::hug::hug::heartbeat:

So it's not all about putting on the personality of a JW!:readthis:

Thank you Jesus!:thumbup::clap::cheer::ok:

Jesh

Thanks BR and others for this fine discussion. It brought to mind a tidbit from one of my all-time favourite books...."The Commentary on the Book of James" :read:

Love, Rez:giverose: