Paradise Café Discussions A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi


This is based mainly on Hebrews Chapters 9-10, where Paul explains that the New Covenant was created to sanctified and cleanse the sins of the “priests”; in order that they could render sacred service to Jehovah in heaven: Heb 9:22,23 –

Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the typical representations of the things in the heavens should be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things themselves with sacrifices that are better than such sacrifices.

Yes, the “heavenly things” (anointed Christians) had to been cleansed by the blood of Christ, which is better than the blood of animals.
Of course, the blood of Christ cleanses the sins of others who exercise faith in the ransom, but who are not going to heaven. I will discuss these at the end.

Most threads in this section promote the view that all Christians are in the New Covenant (NC). Some of you have seen this before when members of another board. It is basically the same (with a few additions) but it is good to have the opposing view, if only to bring some balance to this section.

In the Beginning

1. Jehovah opened to Adam and Eve the prospect of everlasting life on earth without need of any covenant validated by blood. As Jehovah’s word cannot return to him without results, everlasting life on earth must still be available to those with faith without need of any covenant validated by blood. Gen 2:15-17

And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E´den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Yes, if Adam (and his decendents later) remained obedient to God, they would not die (live forever) on the earth.

2. The promise for the “Jews” and to all mankind: Gen 22:17,18 –

I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’”

The seed is Christ, and later on, the apostle Paul shows that anointed Christians are also seeds of Abraham. Heb 2:16,17 –

For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting Abraham’s seed. 17 Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people.

Jesus’ “brothers”, anointed Christians, also will become like Jesus, a “merciful and faithful high priest”.

If the seed of Abraham includes the other sheep (OS), that would mean they are in the NC, as some believe. Who are the “nations” if that were true? That would also mean that the “nations” are blessed by means of Jesus, the 144,000 and the OS! It is scripturally obvious that the “nations” are the other sheep, and are therefore “blessed” by means of Jesus and the 144,000. Gen 17:18-21

After that Abraham said to the [true] God: “O that Ish´ma·el might live before you!”19 To this God said: “Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him. 20 But as regards Ish´ma·el I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much. He will certainly produce twelve chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation. 21 However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.”

Notice that Jehovah said that He would bless “Ishmael” very much and multiply his seed, and make him a “great nation”. However, Jehovah’s covenant was only with Isaac (Israel). Ishmael pictures the OS and what we see in the Christian congregation today:

The OS Jehovah has blessed (cleansing faithful ones of sin and offering them everlasting life on earth) and He has multiplied their seed – now numbering more than six million. But Jehovah’s covenant is with Israel (anointed Christians).

3. Purpose of the covenant

Jehovah said something else about the covenant with Abraham which ultimately demonstrates who would be in the NC. Exodus 19:5,6

And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me 6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.”

So an additional purpose of the Old Covenant (OC) was to produce a “kingdom of priests”. The OC did not produce an entire nation of kings and priests. Only the Levites were the priests to come out of, and later only the tribe of Judah would kings (kingdom) be brought out of. Also, in the OC, a king could not be a priest, and vice versa, they were completely separate offices.

There was another problem when Jesus arrived. He said that the kingdom of God would be in heaven. We’ll talk about that later. Jere 31:31-33 –

“Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”

Notice Jehovah concludes the NC with the house of Israel AND the house of Judah in verse 31. Then he mentions only the house of Israel in verse 33. He was obviously talking about the same group of people, but with two aspects to the covenant, just like the OC had the two aspects: a kingdom and priests. But verse 33 seems to merge the two aspects together. That is interesting. The reasons for that would be explained later. Who does the apostle Paul apply Jere 31:31-33 to? Heb 10:11-17:

Also, every priest takes his station from day to day to render public service and to offer the same sacrifices often, as these are at no time able to take sins away completely. 12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. 14 For it is by one [sacrificial] offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually. 15 Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: 16 “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’” 17 [it says afterwards:] “And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.”

Yes, Paul applies the NC verses of Jere 31:31-33 to the “priests” who he said in verse 14 Jesus’ sacrifice would make “perfect perpetually”. In other words, immortal. Anointed Christians will become immortal priests in heaven.

4. Kingdom of God

The Messiah, Jesus Christ, when he began his ministry, identified where his kingdom would be located. Matt 4:17 - From that time on Jesus commenced preaching and saying: “Repent, YOU people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”

Jesus was to preach only to the Israelites, gathering prospective members of the heavenly kingdom. Matt 10:5,6 - These twelve Jesus sent forth, giving them these orders: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Sa·mar´i·tan city; 6 but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Of course, the OC made no provision to sanctify priests and kings to be in heaven, although it prophesied regarding heaven. Jehovah said to Aaron, the 1st High Priest of Israel, and his descendents at Num 18:20 – “I am your share and your inheritance.”

If the priests were not to get a land inheritance, then their inheritance being Jehovah prophetically means they reside with Him in heaven.

5. Paul states the reason for the NC after explaining how the blood of Christ cleanses consciences. Heb 9: 14,15 – how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?

15 So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.

Yes, the ones who have been called (to heaven) might receive the everlasting inheritance in heaven.

6. As mentioned earlier, Paul applied Jere 31:31-33 to the “priests” who are cleansed to enter into the holy place (heaven) to render sacred service to God. Jere 31:33 calls the house of Israel and the house of Judah: house of Israel. This indicates that the office of priests and kings (kingdom) would be combined. Heb 5: 4-6 :-

Also, a man takes this honor, not of his own accord, but only when he is called by God, just as Aaron also [was]. 5 So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.” 6 Just as he says also in another place: “You are a priest forever according to the manner of Mel·chiz´e·dek.”

Jesus is a king-priest in the manner of Melchizedek, who was the first and only human king-priest mentioned in the bible. Anointed Christians, like Jesus, are also called to be king-priests. 1 Peter 2: 9 –

But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light.

7. Reason for two covenants

Some believe the reason Jesus concluded two covenants with his disciples, was because the 1st covenant (NC) was for forgiveness of sins, and this was general for all mankind. The 2nd covenant (for a kingdom) was between Jesus and the 144,000 only.

The real reason for the two should now be obvious. The 1st covenant (NC) is between Jehovah and the 144,000 mediated by Jesus, so that they can serve as priests to God in heaven. See Heb chapters 7-10.

The 2nd covenant, between Jesus and the 144,000 with no mediator, allows the anointed to rule with Christ in heaven as kings. See Luke 22:28-30.

So the two covenants provide the legal basis for the 144,000 to become King-Priests in the manner of Melchizedek.

Matt 26:26-29 :- As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “TAKE, eat. This means my body.” 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of YOU; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I tell YOU, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.”

Who will be symbolically drinking the product of the vine with Jesus in heaven? Is it not the apostles and the rest of the 144,000? If all Christians were in the NC, that would mean they all will be in heaven with Jesus, enjoying the symbolic drink, which is simply not scriptural. Incidentally, this wrong application is the reason most of Christendom believes all Christians go to heaven.

8. Galatians 4:27 (Desolate Woman and Ancient Israel)

If the desolate woman (with 144,000 children) is more numerous than the one with the husbandly owner (Israel – OC) then that proves that the NC includes the other sheep (OS), together easily outnumber Ancient Israel. Is this correct?

No. The reason that the children of the desolate woman is more numerous than Ancient Israel, is that the OC produced NO priests and kings who could serve Jehovah in heaven, whilst the desolate woman produced 144,000.

9. Who does the bible say are ministers of a NC? 2 Cor 3:6 - who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive.

Paul wrote this letter to the Corinthian congregation. Who were they? They are identified in 1 Cor 1:2 -

to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

These “holy ones” that have been called are anointed Christians, who alone are ministers of the NC.

10. Paul provides further proof that the NC is only for anointed Christians. Rom 9:1-4 :-

I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, since my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit, 2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises;

The covenants that belong to these adopted sons, must include all the covenants concluded with fleshly Israel, as well as the NC, as Christ is mentioned in these verses. Who are these whom “the adoption as sons” belongs? Paul explains in the previous chapter: Rom 8:15,16 -

For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Those adopted as sons are anointed Christians, with whom the NC belongs. See also Gal 4.

11. The Lord’s Evening Meal

At the Lord’s Evening Meal, who does Paul indicate should be partaking? After explaining that the cup “means the new covenant”, Paul counsels those in the congregation who were conducting themselves improperly. 1 Cor 11:27 –

Consequently whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.

Who is the Body of Christ? Rom 7:4 - So, my brothers, YOU also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that YOU might become another’s, the one’s who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

So the body of Christ would “become another’s”. That is indicating marriage. The book of Revelation reveals that anointed Christians are the bride or wife of Christ. Rev 21:9 –

And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” Rev 19:9 calls the marriage of 144,000 to Christ as the “evening meal”.

And he tells me: “Write: Happy are those invited to the evening meal of the Lamb’s marriage.” Also, he tells me: “These are the true sayings of God.”

Yes, anointed Christians are invited to the evening meal of the Lord’s marriage in heaven. They indicate that they have been invited to heaven by partaking of the emblems at the Lord’s Evening Meal or the Memorial of Christ’s death.

1 Cor 6:16,17 - What! Do YOU not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body? For, “The two,” says he, “will be one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

Of course, Col 1:18 says Christ is the head of the congregation. So the head and body make “one spirit”. The “head” and “body” become one spirit in heaven.

b) The fact that partaking of the emblems are to cease when Christ “arrives” is additional proof that the OS are not in the NC. 1 Cor 11:26

For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.

Why are Christians only to keep observing the Evening Meal until the Lord arrives? That is because the New Covenant is complete and fulfilled when all anointed Christians has been taken to heaven.

Think about it: if the OS were in the NC, that would mean that they would have to continue to observe the Evening Meal right until the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ, because they will not be perfect in mind, body and spirit until then.

But Paul says only to continue observing “until the Lord arrives”.

12. The Old Covenant Comparison

a) This is the main reason some believe that all Christians are in the NC, because they compare the Old Covenant (OC) with the New. That was the mistake I made. In the OC, the priests came out of the tribe of Levi, and kings from the tribe of Judah. The remaining tribes were still part of the OC. Therefore, today it is argued, anointed Christians will be kings and priests in heaven, but the rest of the congregation, the other sheep (OS) are still in the NC. But this thinking is seriously flawed. Why? Jehovah Himself states that the NC is not like the OC. Jere 31:32: -

not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

The fact that the NC is written on hearts is not the only difference:

b) Paul said the OC was “obsolete”. Heb 8:13. Unlike the NC, the OC could not permanently cleanse the sins and consciences of those who would be “priests” to God in heaven, or allow “Gentiles” to serve God in heaven.

c) Paul said the OC was “weak and ineffective.” Heb 7:18. It could not make anything “perfect.”

d) Think about this. Some are saying all Christians are in the NC based on the arrangement of the OC, which the bible describes as: “Not like (the OC), Obsolete and Weak and Ineffective! Any interpretation based on the OC arrangement would also be weak, ineffective and obsolete.

13. Hard to Understand

Another mistake advocates make, is when they search for a simple or easy to understand explanation of the NC. Surely, something so absolutely essential to salvation must be easy to understand. But this goes completely against what the bible says it would be. 2 Peter 3:16 –

speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

What are some of the things Paul writes that are “hard to understand”? He writes more about the NC than any other bible writer. The NC with its complexity must be among some of the things hard to understand. Therefore any simplistic explanation of the NC is going against the spirit of what the bible describes: hard to understand.

Yes – the “blood” of the covenant washes the sins of others who exercise faith, but are not going to heaven.

Yes – the other sheep (OS) pray to God in the name of Jesus (as High Priest).

Yes – the OS can be filled with holy spirit.

Yes – the OS can call Jehovah their “Father”.

Yes – the OS get the benefits of the NC, without being parties to it, much as children get the benefit of a marriage arrangement, without being party to it (in the contract – covenant).

LOL – Certainly my children are not on my marriage certificate – it’s just me and my wife. NC – Jehovah and 144,000. The children: OS - not in it.



Conclusion

Through the blood of Christ, Jehovah’s original purpose for mankind will be realized, when their sins will be washed away, they grow to perfection and eventually fully reflect Jehovah’s wonderful image. They will live in paradise, where Jehovah will be “opening his hand and satisfying the desire of every living thing.” Psal 145:16.

The worse part of the “all are in the NC” belief is that it is emotive, and insists that the OS are somehow missing out on their relationship with Christ. This is wrong. Christ died for all and his blood benefits all having faith. John 3:16 –

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.


Londoner

Hi Londoner

Have you been reading older issues of the Watchtower ...again? (grin)

Watchtower 1955 "Ordination of the Qualified Ministers"

"It was with regard to Christendom’s clergy and their congregations. They reject the food served at the hands and mouths of the “slave” class and so suffer famine spiritually. All because these do not recognize the unorthodox ordination or appointment of the “faithful and discreet slave” class. But there are hundreds of thousands of others who are conscious of their spiritual need and who find out where to get the spiritual food and who do accept it at the hands of the anointed remnant of Jehovah’s witnesses. These are the honest, humble, sheeplike people whom Jehovah’s Right Shepherd Jesus Christ brings into the fold to be his “other sheep,” making them “one flock” with the anointed remnant."

Please define "other sheep" for us, Londoner.

Christian love,

gogh

This was the classic ideological battle between the Church of Rome and John Calvin on the one hand and John Wesley and Jacobus Arminius on the other over the interpretation of who are 'kings and priests' from 1 Pet.2:9.

Something to consider- Did Jesus parcel out John 3, a few verses apply to some and other verses apply to others or was he addressing all Believers who would come to him and live their faith in obedience.

Does the construct of the nation of Israel and the converted Gentiles offer solutions.

agape

designs

Greetings Londoner, bro!

Good question. Can you think of a scriptural answer?

True. Can you find scripture that would suggest this?

This is an assumptive statement. If you build an argument on the foundation of assumption, you will have a house of cards.

Please fill in the gaps in this statement. Like....what is your time frame (with supporting scripture/s)?

There are other questions I have but can only ask them when you've answered these ones.

Don't forget the principle of Occum's razor:

This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. ~ Wikipedia

Love, Rez

Who were invited into the Covenant with the 12 Tribes.
Lev.24.

How can Ezekiel 47:21+ apply to the Christian spiritual nation.

Hey Designs!

So you discovered Ezekiel 47:21+......one of my faves, especially verses 21-23. I say "discovered" because, in the old "Know Jehovah" (1971) book the writer seemed to carefully skirt around those verses.

I came across that passage in my personal bible reading a couple of years ago and thought: "How did I miss that one!" So I dug out my old copy of this 'verse by verse discussion of Ezekiel' and found that Ezekiel 47:13 to Ezekiel 48:8+ had been summarized in one paragraph which failed to comment on the remarkable fact the Jehovah was going to grant a land allotment for the alien resident along with the 12 tribes, something that never happened in old covenant times.

What were they trying to hide? Buried treasure, I say!

Love, Rez

Forget the numbers. That's the whimsical watchtower's game that "assures" them front-row seats in the kingdom when all it really does is assure them the front row at a Brooklyn breakfast table. It means nothing in the grand scheme, but everything in the here and now where power and prestige carry a little weight.

1-3 Jesus responded by telling still more stories. "God's kingdom," he said, "is like a king who threw a wedding banquet for his son. He sent out servants to call in all the invited guests. And they wouldn't come!

4"He sent out another round of servants, instructing them to tell the guests, 'Look, everything is on the table, the prime rib is ready for carving. Come to the feast!'

5-7"They only shrugged their shoulders and went off, one to weed his garden, another to work in his shop. The rest, with nothing better to do, beat up on the messengers and then killed them. The king was outraged and sent his soldiers to destroy those thugs and level their city.

8-10"Then he told his servants, 'We have a wedding banquet all prepared but no guests. The ones I invited weren't up to it. Go out into the busiest intersections in town and invite anyone you find to the banquet.' The servants went out on the streets and rounded up everyone they laid eyes on, good and bad, regardless. And so the banquet was on—every place filled.

11-13"When the king entered and looked over the scene, he spotted a man who wasn't properly dressed. He said to him, 'Friend, how dare you come in here looking like that!' The man was speechless. Then the king told his servants, 'Get him out of here—fast. Tie him up and ship him to hell. And make sure he doesn't get back in.'

14"That's what I mean when I say, 'Many get invited; only a few make it.'" (Matthew 22, Message)

Everything's under control.


gus

Eggerzactly.

Jehovah is so amazing, that he does not need to file people into categories, and if he did I would be in the bottom drawer.

vicklet

I still love ya Gus.

I was wondering why this scripture would be changed, 2 Samuel 23:5

(NWT) 5 For is not my household like that with God? Because it is an indefinitely lasting covenant that he has assigned to me,
Nicely put in order in everything and secured.
Because it is all my salvation and all my delight,
Is that not why he will make it grow?


(KJV) Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

Jesh

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QXyX45A0Alk

As always, I just love the lyrics of this song.

PETER GABRIEL LYRICS

"In Your Eyes"

love I get so lost, sometimes
days pass and this emptiness fills my heart
when I want to run away
I drive off in my car
but whichever way I go
I come back to the place you are

all my instincts, they return
and the grand facade, so soon will burn
without a noise, without my pride
I reach out from the inside

in your eyes
the light the heat
in your eyes
I am complete
in your eyes
I see the doorway to a thousand churches
in your eyes
the resolution of all the fruitless searches
in your eyes
I see the light and the heat
in your eyes
oh, I want to be that complete
I want to touch the light
the heat I see in your eyes

love, I don't like to see so much pain
so much wasted and this moment keeps slipping away
I get so tired of working so hard for our survival
I look to the time with you to keep me awake and alive

and all my instincts, they return
and the grand facade, so soon will burn
without a noise, without my pride
I reach out from the inside

in your eyes
the light the heat
in your eyes
I am complete
in your eyes
I see the doorway to a thousand churches
in your eyes
the resolution of all the fruitless searches
in your eyes
I see the light and the heat
in your eyes
oh, I want to be that complete
I want to touch the light,
the heat I see in your eyes
in your eyes in your eyes
in your eyes in your eyes
in your eyes in your eyes


New Heart

Thanks, it is a remarkable verse. One of the Issues in asking who are the Christian Priests (All Faithful Believers or a Select Few) goes to this application of Jeremiah 31:31.

Londoner posited that Paul was using it in Hebrews 5:4-6 about the Levite High Priest (#6.), but Paul actually quotes Jeremiah 31:31 in Hebrews 8:8+ to all Believers. This is similar to Peter's use of the terms and they both seem to be referencing Exodus 19:6 where all of the nation of israel and the converted foreigners were 'kings and priests'.

Its very possible that a selected priesthood can be called from the Christian Holy Nation similar to the Levites being called for special duties, this is one way to interpret Revelation 7:1-9 where a 144,000 are taken from (Christian) Israel, but the setting seems to be related to the Millennium and possibly selected duties that some Christians are called to do in connection with Christ's Reign.

agape

designs

The entire basis for a dual class of Christains outside of the covenant is based on John 10:16 where Jesus says "I have other sheep which are not of this fold." The WTBTS says as a result there are two different classes.

There is just one tiny problem with this reasoning...

Jesus says I HAVE other sheep which are not of this fold. The languge is current which means that THE OTHER SHEEP WERE ALIVE AT THE TIME WHEN JESUS WAS ON EARTH WHICH MEANS THAT SOME IN PAUL'S TIME WERE OF THE EARTHLY CLASS WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!

Tell me where it says that the convenant is only for 144,000? Where does it say this?

Eph makes it clear that All Christians have the same calling.

That's Right, Londoner, Jesus was speaking to diciples of HIS TIME. The society says that the other sheep did not exist until 1935. Why would Jesus talk about a class which was not in existance for 2,000 years in the current tense? becuase there IS NO seperate class. Eph shows who the other sheep are...the gentiles.

I am so tired of the WTBTS trying to scripture hop to point to something that is not really there.

I get very cross when I read these sorts of topics.

It reminds me of having to endure Watchman.
So he has had his 'turn' or whatever he wants to call it.
Who cares!

People who start these topics have often had their 'turn', and think they are saved, OK, off to heaven, or whatever, basking in a cushion of comfort.

John 10:16 is talking about Gentiles, those not inside the pen of the old law covenant.
Read your Bible folks, particularly you who think you are heaven-bound.

Jesus is the gateway who leads a penned-in flock out into open pastures and then we all join up in those open pastures.
Anyone who thinks they are special, because they have experienced the holy spirit, are getting their reward in full.

If we are all in the new covenant, (all were allowed in the first covenant) and yet some try to exclude others in their need to feel special, where will they be when we all stand before Jehovah?

vicky

Many modern Translations of the Bible render these verses in either a Reflective mode (Is it so) which follows a Jewish idiom to make comments with questions- see the NIV rendering. Or some translate this passage as a straight forward declaration of God's assuredness over his promises- see The Jerusalem Bible. The American Translation by Smith and Goodspeed splits the tone of the verse by first making a relective question and then ending it with a positive statement that God will protect and provide.

Few render it in the negative sense that the King James does.

agape

Donn

I have read the Bible and it points that all are heaven bound.

If you look at the NT, there are several points.

1. Nowhere does the Bible say that the kingdom of God is on earth. In fact the only time the Bible alludes to this is at the end of Rev.
2. Nowhere does the Bible say salvation is conditional other than believing in Christ Jesus.
3. Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Co 15:50)
4. God shows that all are special to him because they are all his children. Where in the Bible does it say that some Christians Arn't?
5. Jesus himself said his kingdom was no part of this world.
6. When the Pharasees hinted at a physical resurrection in regards to the Kingdom of God, Jesus told them they did not know the scriptures or the power of God.

What I AM tired of is people telling me I am not special before God. We seem to come from a religion that says "Just remember that God although he is merciful can and more than likely will destroy you in the day of his fury because you did not get enough hours."