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On Saturday we are reading Galatians, and on Sunday we were discussing the nature of Jesus.

I am sure we all learn something from these meetings.
Unfortunately they are fast moving, (there are no uncomfortable silences) so although we all carry something away, we might not remember all that was covered.

I thought it would be good if we log anything we have learned even if they are only snippets.

So I will start off and hope others will join in.

---------------------------


In Galations 3:16 Paul says, "now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.
It says not, 'and to seeds' as in the case of many,
but as in the case of one.....'and to your seed', who is Christ".


Paul is quoting Genesis 22:17,18.
"I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and like the grains of sand on the seashore...

And your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies.
And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves...."


Now here in Genesis it looks like the seed represents many, multiplied;
as many as the stars and grains of sand.

So what was Paul talking about when he says it only applies to one?

The Hebrew word used is Zera. This word is the same in the singular as in the plural, like sheep or offspring: One 'zera', many 'zera'!
That is why the word seed is used so often in the Bible rather that the word son (ben) because the plural is different, sons (banim).

In the second part of the Genesis scripture, it says,
"And your seed will take possession of his enemies.
And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves...."

This second sentence has the pronoun HIS.
This is like me saying, "see my offspring, he is great!" In comparison to "see my offspring, they are great!"
The pronoun tells us whether there is one or many, since the word offspring is the same in the singular or plural.

Paul obviously realises from his knowledge of Hebrew that this was talking about one person in the second part of the scripture and this one person was Jesus.

So what about the first part of the Genesis scripture; all those stars; all those grains of sand?

Paul gives the answer in Galatians chapter 3, at the end, verse 29 says, "Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed.
Heirs with reference to a promise".


So the primary seed (singular) is Christ, if we have faith in Christ and his resurrection, like the faith Abraham showed, then we become Christ's seed. In turn we become the seed of Abraham, through Christ. This includes any who hope to go to heaven (stars), or hope to live on the earth (grains of sand).

vicky
Hi Vic! Very nice!! "cept I would question whether the symbolic number being as the stars or grains of sand means a very high number, or, two differant destinies of the seed. I doubt if the Earth could have that many people.Tongue
What I found interesting was as Abraham proved himself more and more faithful, his seed is described differently.
Gen. 13:16 Dust particles.
Gen. 15:5 Stars,
Gen. 22:17 Stars and particles of sand on the seashore.
Just tossing out thoughts. I wonder what it means, is it qualitative in some way?

vicky
Post: #134RE: This Week's Think Tank Topic - Sunday



Hello friends.. We were talking about if Jesus was here in the perfect flesh or the fallen flesh.. Here is a scripture that seems to point out that Jesus did do things wrong.. no doubt just because of inexperi-
ence.

ll Samuel 7:12
12 ‘And after your days are finished and you’ve gone to sleep with your ancestors, I will raise up your seed after you – someone who has come from within you – and I will prepare his kingdom. 13 Then He will build Me a House to My Name, and I will make his throne stand through the ages… I will be a father to him, and he will be a son to Me.

14 Then if he acts unrighteously, I will discipline him with the type of switch that men use, and spank him the same way that the sons of men do. 15 But I will never remove My mercy from him in the same way that I’ve removed My mercy from others. 16 Rather, his house and his kingdom will stand before Me through the ages, and his throne will last through the ages.’
The words in 2 Samuel 7 are being address to king David.
These words apply to his son Solomon.
I can't see why they should apply to Jesus as well.

vicky
Dear Vicki,

Quote:
ll Samuel 7:12
12 ‘And after your days are finished and you’ve gone to sleep with your ancestors, I will raise up your seed after you – someone who has come from within you – and I will prepare his kingdom. 13 Then He will build Me a House to My Name, and I will make his throne stand through the ages… I will be a father to him, and he will be a son to Me.14 Then if he acts unrighteously, I will discipline him with the type of switch that men use, and spank him the same way that the sons of men do. 15 But I will never remove My mercy from him in the same way that I’ve removed My mercy from others. 16 Rather, his house and his kingdom will stand before Me through the ages, and his throne will last through the ages.’


Vicki, at first I thought Solomon as well, but it also sounds alot like Jesus, maybe in an antitypical way. Drinking[/quote][/color][/size]

Good morning all ... LoveGroup Hug

I was sorry to have missed the think tank ... but someone invited us out when our electricity was out and we couldn't cancel ... Sad so missed out on some beautiful gems no doubt ... Present Sad

Thanks for some thoughts vicky to think on ... Thumbsup

Hi there Newtruth ... you always seem to come up with some interesting thoughts too ... Big Grin

I would like to make a comment on this one perhaps ... Love

Hello friends.. We were talking about if Jesus was here in the perfect flesh or the fallen flesh.. Here is a scripture that seems to point out that Jesus did do things wrong.. no doubt just because of inexperi-
ence.


Then you quoted the Scripture at 2Sam.7 and was wondering if it could apply to Jesus ...

I tend to agree with Vicky ... but even IF it did apply to Jesus in an 'antitypical' way as you suggest perhaps taking note of verse 14 and HOW it opens with the word ...

IF

Jesus had FREEWILL just as Adam and Eve and we all have ... we can CHOOSE to do what is right or what is wrong ...

Adam chose unwisely and thus we can see the sad results today
Jesus chose WISELY and thus we will see the fully the results of his perfectly obedient course of life shortly ...

To perhaps also show why Jesus HAD to be a 'perfect' man ... I tend to think of the old law covenant ...

What imperfect man ever fulfilled it perfectly?
Could he even though he may try to with all his heart and soul?

What did the apostle Paul said about this ...

Acts 15:9-11 .
..

9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”


Yes, the 'yoke' ... the Law ... was TOO MUCH TO BEAR ... and NO ONE had ever been able to live up to its standards COMPLETELY ...

except ONE ...

Christ Jesus ...ThumbsupLove

After fullfilling it he 'nailed it to the torture stake' (cross) to no more be a 'burden' to the people who would from then on be serving and worshipping God in a 'new' way ... that of 'faith' and belief in Christ as our Savior and ransomer and sharing that faith with others ...

Just some thoughts off the top of my head ...

Hope they will prove helpful ... Giverose

Lots of luv BR Sheepy Bouncyhearts
Friends

Thanks, BR and Vicki..

BR..you brought up how Jesus could keep the law and not sin.. I agree. I believe this is because of his pre-human existence..and his relationship with Jehovah.. that he somehow drew on.. Do you?


Yes, the seed is from David.. Yes, the scripture is probably, firstly speaking of Solomon.

My question is this..Jesus was a child, at one point.. How is it possible for a child to never make a mistake? A mistake is a wrong, is it not? Wouldn't a sin only be if someone does something wrong on purpose? If a child does something wrong, not knowing it is a wrong, is it therefore a SIN?.. I think not. So that being the case, Jesus could have done many wrongs..in his life, but yet (Hebrews 5:8) 'learned obedience from the things he suffered'. A person, who learns obedience, wasn't always obedient? Right?

Jesus also came down in the 'flesh'. Flesh in the NT is always refered to as the 'fallen flesh'. Is it not?

Another scripture: Heb. 4:15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, , but without sin.

How can one sympathize with our weaknesses if they were never weak?? How could one be tested in everyway like we ourselves, if one never knew what being in the fallen flesh was like.. The thing is he went through every test, like we ourselves, even having an inclination toward sin, but yet resisting and not sinning..

Think of this, friends, how much more credit would there be to Jesus if he was in the fallen flesh and still resisted sin? If he was in a perfect body, and didn't sin, that would be much easier to do, than being in the imperfect body.. Right?

Thoughts welcome..

NewTruth Wrote:

Think of this, friends, how much more credit would there be to Jesus if he was in the fallen flesh and still resisted sin? If he was in a perfect body, and didn't sin, that would be much easier to do, than being in the imperfect body.. Right?

Thoughts welcome..


Hi NT,

Was Adam "fallen flesh?" Was Adam perfect? Was Jesus equal to Adam in that respect? He had to be, in order to offer a 'corresponding ransom,' didn't he?

Adam came into a perfect environment as a perfect man. However, Jesus came into a very imperfect, wicked world as a perfect offspring of his perfect Father in human form. Jesus had super-human abilities, i.e., healed the sick, raised the dead, expelled demons. He was cabable of intense empathy, therefore could 'feel' the pain and suffering of those around him.

It appears to me that you don't even wish to credit him with the simple things that we as imperfect humans are capable of such as; compassion, empathy, mercy and yes, obedience. Seriously, he really does not need any "more credit."

His heart was true and pure to his Father no matter how awful he was treated or what he had to suffer at the hands of imperfect man while on Earth.

He 'learned obedience from the things suffered' not because he was disobedient or imperfect but due to the fact that he put the will of his Father ahead of his own even when it put him in direct opposition to the religious leaders and that almost always brought him suffering.

Let me ask you, when you walk through a hospital corridor can you sympathize with the sick, the elderly and the dying? Or do you have to be in a hospital bed too with an incurrable illness in order to feel your heart go out to others with incurrable illnesses? Is it really so, that you must be a weak individual in order to sympathize with others who are weak?

To quote Donbodo, "Learn the Rule: Don't go beyond what is written . . ."

In Christ,

Leisha

Quote:
He 'learned obedience from the things suffered' not because he was disobedient or imperfect but due to the fact that he put the will of his Father ahead of his own even when it put him in direct opposition to the religious leaders and that almost always brought him suffering.



Thumbup


Quote:
Let me ask you, when you walk through a hospital corridor can you sympathize with the sick, the elderly and the dying? Or do you have to be in a hospital bed too with an incurrable illness in order to feel your heart go out to others with incurrable illnesses? Is it really so, that you must be a weak individual in order to sympathize with others who are weak?



Great analogy!


gus

A question came up in the thinktank of November 25th. I've endeavoured to answer it more fully here.

It was asked about the Lamb's scroll of life mentioned in Revelation 21:25-27) ....was it the same as the "book of life" that is mentioned elsewhere in the Bible.

"And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life [will]."

The WT has really muddied the waters by translating the Greek words "biblos" and "biblion" variously as "book" and "scroll". By their inconsistency they have endeavoured to separate the 144,000 from the rest of the Israel of God. In fact, they teach that only the 144,000 comprise the Israel of God. Here are three examples of their teachings that add to this confusion:

Quote:
*** pm (Paradise Restored)chap. 9 pp. 150-151 Growth and Protection of God’s Capital Organization ***

But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will.”—Revelation 21:1-4, 9-14, 22-27.

11 There is no mistaking of it. That “holy city,” New Jerusalem, pictures the clean, undefiled, holy Christian congregation. It is composed entirely of spiritual Israelites, Jews inwardly, circumcised in their hearts. True, the “twelve apostles of the Lamb” were natural, circumcised Jews or Israelites; but from the festival day of Pentecost of the year 33 C.E. onward they all became spiritual Israelites or Jews, for then Jehovah’s holy spirit was poured upon them through the Lamb Jesus Christ. (Acts 1:12 to 2:42) These spiritual Israelites are 144,000 in number (12 x 12 x 1,000), grouped into twelve tribes, as it were, the names of these twelve tribes being inscribed over the twelve gates of the New Jerusalem. (Revelation 7:4-8) Calling attention to their official position is the fact that they are called ‘the kings of the earth.’ (Revelation 20:4, 6) They are higher than “the nations” on earth who walk by means of the light of the New Jerusalem.—Revelation 5:10.


Quote:
*** re (Revelation Climax) chap. 28 p. 192 Contending With Two Ferocious Beasts ***

This seemed like a victory for Satan and his organization. But it could bring them no long-term benefits, since no one in Satan’s visible organization had his name written in “the scroll of life of the Lamb.” Figuratively, this scroll contains the names of those who will rule with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom. The first names were written in it at Pentecost 33 C.E. And in the years since then, more and more names have been added. Since 1918, the sealing of the remaining ones of the 144,000 Kingdom heirs has been proceeding to completion. Soon, the names of all of them will be written indelibly in the Lamb’s scroll of life. As for the opposers who worship the wild beast, not one of these will have his name written in that scroll. So any apparent victory these may have over “the holy ones” is an empty one, merely temporary.


Quote:
*** re (Revelation Climax) chap. 43 p. 310 The Resplendent City ***

18 John continues: “But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will.” (Revelation 21:27) Nothing tainted by Satan’s system of things can be a part of New Jerusalem. Even though its gates are permanently open, no one who “carries on a disgusting thing and a lie” will be allowed to enter. There will be no apostates in that city nor any members of Babylon the Great. And if any try to desecrate the city by corrupting its future members while they are still on earth, their efforts are brought to nothing. (Matthew 13:41-43) Only “those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life,” the 144,000, will finally enter into New Jerusalem. —Revelation 13:8; Daniel 12:3.


Adding to the confusion is the way that the NWT has translated Revelation 13:8.

"And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world."

The Concordant Literal version translates it:

"And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."

According to the confusing teachings of the WT, only the 144,000 refuse to worship the wild beast. So, what about the great crowd who have also "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb" as per Revelation 7:14,15? Since the WT teaches that the great crowd are on earth, are these ones also not exempt from worshipping the wild beast? Are they therefore not written in the lamb's scroll of life?

There is more that could be said, but maybe this will help to clarify things.

Love, RezGiverose

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