Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

On Saturday we are reading Galatians, and on Sunday we were discussing the nature of Jesus.

I am sure we all learn something from these meetings.
Unfortunately they are fast moving, (there are no uncomfortable silences) so although we all carry something away, we might not remember all that was covered.

I thought it would be good if we log anything we have learned even if they are only snippets.

So I will start off and hope others will join in.

---------------------------

In Galations 3:16 Paul says, "now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.
It says not, 'and to seeds' as in the case of many,
but as in the case of one.....'and to your seed', who is Christ".

Paul is quoting Genesis 22:17,18.
"I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and like the grains of sand on the seashore...

And your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies.
And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves...."

Now here in Genesis it looks like the seed represents many, multiplied;
as many as the stars and grains of sand.

So what was Paul talking about when he says it only applies to one?

The Hebrew word used is Zera. This word is the same in the singular as in the plural, like sheep or offspring: One 'zera', many 'zera'!
That is why the word seed is used so often in the Bible rather that the word son (ben) because the plural is different, sons (banim).

In the second part of the Genesis scripture, it says,
"And your seed will take possession of his enemies.
And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves...."
This second sentence has the pronoun HIS.
This is like me saying, "see my offspring, he is great!" In comparison to "see my offspring, they are great!"
The pronoun tells us whether there is one or many, since the word offspring is the same in the singular or plural.

Paul obviously realises from his knowledge of Hebrew that this was talking about one person in the second part of the scripture and this one person was Jesus.

So what about the first part of the Genesis scripture; all those stars; all those grains of sand?

Paul gives the answer in Galatians chapter 3, at the end, verse 29 says, "Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed.
Heirs with reference to a promise".

So the primary seed (singular) is Christ, if we have faith in Christ and his resurrection, like the faith Abraham showed, then we become Christ's seed. In turn we become the seed of Abraham, through Christ. This includes any who hope to go to heaven (stars), or hope to live on the earth (grains of sand).

vicky

Hi Vic! Very nice!! "cept I would question whether the symbolic number being as the stars or grains of sand means a very high number, or, two differant destinies of the seed. I doubt if the Earth could have that many people.:P

What I found interesting was as Abraham proved himself more and more faithful, his seed is described differently.
Gen. 13:16 Dust particles.
Gen. 15:5 Stars,
Gen. 22:17 Stars and particles of sand on the seashore.
Just tossing out thoughts. I wonder what it means, is it qualitative in some way?

vicky

Post: #134RE: This Week's Think Tank Topic - Sunday



Hello friends.. We were talking about if Jesus was here in the perfect flesh or the fallen flesh.. Here is a scripture that seems to point out that Jesus did do things wrong.. no doubt just because of inexperi-
ence.

ll Samuel 7:12
12 ‘And after your days are finished and you’ve gone to sleep with your ancestors, I will raise up your seed after you – someone who has come from within you – and I will prepare his kingdom. 13 Then He will build Me a House to My Name, and I will make his throne stand through the ages… I will be a father to him, and he will be a son to Me.

14 Then if he acts unrighteously, I will discipline him with the type of switch that men use, and spank him the same way that the sons of men do. 15 But I will never remove My mercy from him in the same way that I’ve removed My mercy from others. 16 Rather, his house and his kingdom will stand before Me through the ages, and his throne will last through the ages.’

The words in 2 Samuel 7 are being address to king David.
These words apply to his son Solomon.
I can't see why they should apply to Jesus as well.

vicky

Dear Vicki,

Vicki, at first I thought Solomon as well, but it also sounds alot like Jesus, maybe in an antitypical way. :drinking:[/quote][/color][/size]

Good morning all ... :love::grouphug:

I was sorry to have missed the think tank ... but someone invited us out when our electricity was out and we couldn't cancel ... :( so missed out on some beautiful gems no doubt ... :present: :(

Thanks for some thoughts vicky to think on ... :thumbsup:

Hi there Newtruth ... you always seem to come up with some interesting thoughts too ... :D

I would like to make a comment on this one perhaps ... :love:

Hello friends.. We were talking about if Jesus was here in the perfect flesh or the fallen flesh.. Here is a scripture that seems to point out that Jesus did do things wrong.. no doubt just because of inexperi-
ence.

Then you quoted the Scripture at 2Sam.7 and was wondering if it could apply to Jesus ...

I tend to agree with Vicky ... but even IF it did apply to Jesus in an 'antitypical' way as you suggest perhaps taking note of verse 14 and HOW it opens with the word ...

IF

Jesus had FREEWILL just as Adam and Eve and we all have ... we can CHOOSE to do what is right or what is wrong ...

Adam chose unwisely and thus we can see the sad results today
Jesus chose WISELY and thus we will see the fully the results of his perfectly obedient course of life shortly ...

To perhaps also show why Jesus HAD to be a 'perfect' man ... I tend to think of the old law covenant ...

What imperfect man ever fulfilled it perfectly?
Could he even though he may try to with all his heart and soul?

What did the apostle Paul said about this ...

Acts 15:9-11 ...

9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”

Yes, the 'yoke' ... the Law ... was TOO MUCH TO BEAR ... and NO ONE had ever been able to live up to its standards COMPLETELY ...

except ONE ...

Christ Jesus ...:thumbsup::love:

After fullfilling it he 'nailed it to the torture stake' (cross) to no more be a 'burden' to the people who would from then on be serving and worshipping God in a 'new' way ... that of 'faith' and belief in Christ as our Savior and ransomer and sharing that faith with others ...

Just some thoughts off the top of my head ...

Hope they will prove helpful ... :giverose:

Lots of luv BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi NT,

Was Adam "fallen flesh?" Was Adam perfect? Was Jesus equal to Adam in that respect? He had to be, in order to offer a 'corresponding ransom,' didn't he?

Adam came into a perfect environment as a perfect man. However, Jesus came into a very imperfect, wicked world as a perfect offspring of his perfect Father in human form. Jesus had super-human abilities, i.e., healed the sick, raised the dead, expelled demons. He was cabable of intense empathy, therefore could 'feel' the pain and suffering of those around him.

It appears to me that you don't even wish to credit him with the simple things that we as imperfect humans are capable of such as; compassion, empathy, mercy and yes, obedience. Seriously, he really does not need any "more credit."

His heart was true and pure to his Father no matter how awful he was treated or what he had to suffer at the hands of imperfect man while on Earth.

He 'learned obedience from the things suffered' not because he was disobedient or imperfect but due to the fact that he put the will of his Father ahead of his own even when it put him in direct opposition to the religious leaders and that almost always brought him suffering.

Let me ask you, when you walk through a hospital corridor can you sympathize with the sick, the elderly and the dying? Or do you have to be in a hospital bed too with an incurrable illness in order to feel your heart go out to others with incurrable illnesses? Is it really so, that you must be a weak individual in order to sympathize with others who are weak?

To quote Donbodo, "Learn the Rule: Don't go beyond what is written . . ."

In Christ,

Leisha

:thumbup:

Great analogy!


gus

A question came up in the thinktank of November 25th. I've endeavoured to answer it more fully here.

It was asked about the Lamb's scroll of life mentioned in Revelation 21:25-27) ....was it the same as the "book of life" that is mentioned elsewhere in the Bible.

"And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life [will]."

The WT has really muddied the waters by translating the Greek words "biblos" and "biblion" variously as "book" and "scroll". By their inconsistency they have endeavoured to separate the 144,000 from the rest of the Israel of God. In fact, they teach that only the 144,000 comprise the Israel of God. Here are three examples of their teachings that add to this confusion:

Adding to the confusion is the way that the NWT has translated Revelation 13:8.

"And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world."

The Concordant Literal version translates it:

"And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."

According to the confusing teachings of the WT, only the 144,000 refuse to worship the wild beast. So, what about the great crowd who have also "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb" as per Revelation 7:14,15? Since the WT teaches that the great crowd are on earth, are these ones also not exempt from worshipping the wild beast? Are they therefore not written in the lamb's scroll of life?

There is more that could be said, but maybe this will help to clarify things.

Love, Rez:giverose:

Hi all
Excuse me ,
I don't know if I am allowed my two cents here, but in answer to a few comments I hope you won't mind, my saying that Jesus being the only begotten son of the Most High God he would be perfect as His Father was perfect, there fore the Law given to Moses was a perfect Law., as it came from the Most High>

This is why it became a Tudor that lead the Jews to Christ. They understood that it was a eye for a eye ,a tooth for a tooth , a life for a life, but they also understood they had inherited death from the first human Adam who was created perfect , so it would also take a perfect life to buy back what Adam lost, there fore we have Jesus to balance the scales of justice.

Now as far as the 144,000 not having anything to do with the beast, this would eliminate any professed sons of God in the WT would it not !
James 4:4 calls the cong of brothers back in the first century Adulteresses that became a friend with the world. let alone the Beast its self ( the UN )
Nor are they virgins any longer there fore cannot be part of the Bride of Christ.
Revelation tells us they were virgins bought from the earth. Revelation indeed. !

Yet at the same time we have those who hope to live on earth staying free from even the YMCA. We have the other sheep leaving the so called FDS that claim to be the true brothers of Christ, but proved to be false brothers. because of their getting on the Beast with the rest of Babylon.

This would indicate that the other sheep know once they wash their robes in the blood of the lamb that they too must remain spotless.
This alone would tell the other sheep that they were to flee from the WTs false shepherds , and those who under stand the dangers there are doing so.
2 Thess 2:1-12

. We have the other sheep scattered because of their loyalty to Jesus as head of the body of Christ ( and not man ) We follow Christ the same as Christ brothers do.
As Anthony would put it ( even though we are the other sheep ) we also have found shelter " Outside the camp ",along with some of the remnant of the little flock who are also scattered around the earth.

If I took this Topic off course, please forgive me.
Now this is the way I see it, so speaking only for myself
Love stayawake:grouphug:

Dearest Susanna - of course you may add your 2 cents in wherever you please, sis - it all adds up!

As for my own small coinage, I must disagree, with all due respect, about what you said here -

My opinion is that there are no 'other sheep'. Jesus said - "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." ALL who hear Jesus' voice' follow their one Shepherd and he is Shepherd over ALL the sheep, undivided. Because he said he would make them ONE flock - and he has done it! It's not something future - it was a done deal with his ransom sacrifice and resurrection. It's what Paul went on about so much - preaching to the Jews that the Gentiles(who Jesus was referring to as his 'other sheep' in that quote) were also included as God's people - and also to the Gentiles he preached that they were now, through faith and belief in Jesus, God's people, when previously only the Jews had enjoyed that special relationship. We are, through Christ, all God's people who believe in Him and His Son! Yah!

The 'other sheep' were Gentiles - not the imaginings of Rutherford as he divided the growing numbers of Biblestudents into 'classes'. That is an entirely false premise that has grown into a major doctrine of the wtbts. It is, in my opinion, the most dangerous and damaging doctrine they espouse. It makes the people who are told they are 'of the other sheep' look to men as their guides instead of Jesus ONLY. We must go to Jesus Christ to please God, yet the WT maintains the dividing wall that Christ's death tore down.

The fact that the 'other sheep' are Gentiles has been published by many Bible scholars for many years - and I can see now that it is the real truth and the WT teaching on the subject is totally false.

The following commentaries on John 10:16 are from BibleClassics.com
>The Geneva Study Bible<
10:16 (4) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be (f )one fold, [and] one shepherd.

(4) The calling of the Gentiles.
(f) The distinguishing mark of the Christian Church throughout all the world, is that it has only one head, that is Christ, the only keeper, and only shepherd of it.


>John Darby's Synopsis of the Bible<
Thus He laid down His life for the sheep; and He had other sheep who were not of this fold, and His death intervened for the salvation of these poor Gentiles. He would call them. Doubtless He had given His life for the Jews also-for all the sheep in general, as such (v. 11). But He does not speak distinctly of the Gentiles until after He has spoken of His death. He would bring them also, and there should be but one flock (not "one fold," there is no fold now) and one Shepherd .

>John Wesley's Notes on the Bible<
Verse 16. I have also other sheep - Which he foreknew; which are not of this fold - Not of the Jewish Church or nation, but Gentiles. I must bring them likewise - Into my Church, the general assembly of those whose names are written in heaven. And there shall be one flock - (Not one fold, a plain false print) no corrupt or divided flocks remaining. And one shepherd - Who laid down his life for the sheep, and will leave no hireling among them. The unity both of the flock and the shepherd shall be completed in its season. The shepherd shall bring all into one flock: and the whole flock shall hear the one shepherd.

>B. W. Johnson's Bible Commentary<
16. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold. Not Jews, of whom his followers then were, but Gentiles who would soon be called to him. These would hear his voice, enter through the door, into the same fold as the Jewish Christians, so that there would be "one fold and one shepherd." There is only one Church and one door into it, and one Shepherd over it.

>J. Vernon McGee Notes and Outlines<
"The door" (verse 9)—He is the door of salvation for both Jew and Gentile (cf. John 14:6). He is the way in.
Jesus came into the fold the right way (verse 2), made under the Law, in David's line. The porter (the Holy Spirit) opened the way for Him. "Fold" (verse 16) means Israel. For over 2000 years He has been calling out Jew and Gentile. We are now one flock, the church.
Good Shepherd—Psalm 22 (John 10:11)
Great Shepherd—Psalm 23 (Hebrews 13:20)
Chief Shepherd—Psalm 24 (1 Peter 5:4)

>McGarvey and Pendleton<
10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold1: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd2.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold. Jesus was speaking to the Jews, who had been frequently spoken of in Scripture as God's flock. The other sheep were Gentiles.
Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. They are spoken of as scattered sheep, and not as flocks, because with them there was no unity. Here, as everywhere, the truth breaks through, revealing Christ as the world's Redeemer, who would break down the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, and cause all true worshipers to have a common relationship to one Master.


No one knows their place, or 'reward', in God's Kingdom until they've finished their life course and died faithfully - and that's when the final sealing of those who will rule with Christ in the millenium takes place. We believers ALL get an anointing from God's holy spirit, or a 'token', as Paul put it - there is no such thing as a 'non-anointed Christian'. At least I can find no such allusion to such in the Bible. Rutherford must've made it up! You either are a believer in Christ and thus a Christian, or you are an unbeliever. It also seems to me that one must be 'called' by God in order to even believe in His Son in the first place - which makes me understand that the 'heavenly call' is just that - a call FROM heaven, not a call TO heaven - YHVH calls us to be believers in Him and His Son. If one has God's spirit then they belong to Him - and that makes each one of us 'special' in His eyes - He loves us as His children and wants us to think of Him as 'Abba' without fear - there is no fear in that kind of love!:love:

John's letters make the point that one is either a child of God or a child of the devil - so it seems to me to be very much an either/or premise and not about classes within the body of believers at all. Paul also goes on about how we are very much all the same in Christ and should not be promoting ourselves above any other believer - we are all under Jesus' kindly yoke in this life - all brothers and sisters in him - because of our shared faith in him.

Please consider these things, sis. :love: I didn't look up the scripture references to many of my comments about Paul and John - I figured you know them too. If you want me to I will look them up and add them in another post. Think on it thus far and tell me what you think, OK?

:heartbeat:Love to you,
Willa :peace:

Dear Willia
I can see we are not on the same page,no matter what one would say I have the hope to live here on earth, and no one can convince me that I must have the heavenly calling to believe in Jesus Christ.

I recognize and understand the Ransom sacrifice, which was to buy back what Adam lost which was eternal life here on earth ,That was the reason Jesus came to earth to full fill Jahs main Purpose for the earth.
I accept the Titles that Jesus will hold during his thousand years reign.
Eternal Father, Heavenly Counselor , Mighty God and Prince of Peace.Isa 9:6

Willia I can understand your not understanding , but try as you may, my hope is to live here on earth, the same hope that you have of dying in the flesh and being made alive in the spirit or the image of Christ.
So if we aren't accepted by some of the little flock, there must be some of the remnant that will accept us, after all that is how the other sheep will be judged . Matt 25:31-46

Those so called Bible scholars fall short of knowing the true God and there fore would not understand the Sacret Secret of God ,
1 Cor 15 th chapter.

Believing as I do hardly makes me a child of Satan.
love
stayawake :grouphug:

Susanna -
Dear sis, you misunderstood a few things I said.
I, too, long to live on the earth as God purposed it - there will be a new heavens and a new earth and it will all be glorious!

The 'heavenly call', as I see it, is God drawing us to Him. You know, there are lots and lots of people who couldn't care less about God or His will - we are not like that though, are we. We have been called by Him to believe in Him and His Son and we responded "Yes!" We are no longer 'in the world', but we are as a 'special possession' to God, His children. I was not saying you are a child of the devil, silly - just the opposite! John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

It is also my understanding that we Christians are all to be made alive in the spirit of Christ and walking in light... or otherwise we are dead and in darkness. You and I are walking in Jesus' light, sis, because we believe. We are all to try to live up to the pattern Jesus left for us in his life and teachings, which is his Father's way too. Some will do a better job of it and will be chosen as rulers with Christ - after they have died faithfully. But believers in Christ now are not judged by them - we have already been judged as righteous by faith, like Abraham - all because our loving God is so merciful - it is by His grace we are saved by our faith now.
John 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
We are not evil! We are lovers of God and Jesus and so we are not in the darkness of the world!:no: That's why I said it's either/or - because I know you are a child of God - you are a believer!:yes:

I am adamant that there are no 'other sheep' because of what Jesus said - not what the any scholars said. Actually, I had that figured out on my own before I read any of their writings - and was surprised that they'd had that figured all along, lol. I didn't know it - all I'd studied and knew before that was the WT teachings which are so skewed to support their doctrines of division. I realized that nowhere in the Bible does it say we must be accepted by anyone but God and Christ.

Matt. 25:21-46 doesn't say anything at all about a 'little flock' or 'other sheep' - it's about Jesus dividing the nations - sheep from goats - we are sheep/believers, dear sis - and look what it says about us - 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

The Kingdom is not just heavenly - it encompasses the earth too and is not limited to 144,000 residents. As I see it, we believers will all make up the Holy Nation of God - His Kingdom. Some will be priests and some will be Kings reigning with Christ(and some, like me, will be glad to be ditch-diggers!;)) - but we right now, as believers, are ministers to the Word of God - so we are already His 'priests' so-to-speak... although the word 'priest' makes me think of Catholics... lol. But no one knows yet for which position they will be chosen - we must first prove our faith 'unto death'. The WT has put it in the minds of its followers that an anointing from God's spirit means a heavenly/Kingly role - and that is not supported in the scriptures as far as I can find. We are not so far apart, dear sister - we both have the wonderful hope to live in God's Kingdom and Jesus will choose who does what there. Again I say that there is no such thing as a 'non-anointed Christian' - we either do have His spirit working in our minds, hearts and lives - or we don't. And we do! We couldn't be believers unless God's spirit had led us to Him - and that is the anointing of the spirit, imho.

Please expand on your thoughts here - Those so called Bible scholars fall short of knowing the true God and there fore would not understand the Sacret Secret of God ,
1 Cor 15 th chapter. - I'm not sure of the point you're making. Is it because you think all bible scholars think we all go to heaven...? I'm not so sure they all do anyway. But the Sacred Secret of God is that Jesus truly is the prophesied Messiah of God, finally revealed - Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Susanna - I'm not trying to pick on you - please don't misunderstand my intentions. I like you - I love you! I always have from long ago when I was also on e-watchman's board - I was 'peacebaby' there. I was so very pleased that you joined this board so we could have an 'exchange of encouragment'!:friends: Please do understand I only want to lift you up and be encouraging to you, as you are also a beloved sheeplet of Jesus, our Caring Shepherd.:love:

His peace to you :peace:
:heartbeat:Willa