Bears repeating. Thanks, Veritas Re.
Exclusionist thinking misses the spirit of the New Covenant that Christ set in place, because it forgets that the “key†to success in following Christ is not rules and regulations but rather in the conscientious and responsible exercise of free moral agency – which when expressed in a fully godlike fashion requires no rules and regulations.
In other words the perfect expression of Christ’s teaching to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you†is by definition inclusionist.
Paul nails this point down when saying that "14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts; they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare. " (Romans 2:14-16)
The ultimate expression of the precepts of Christianity is when persons are fully attuned to their own proper nature simply from having been created in God’s image. Under such a bold and beautiful arrangement even non-Christian persons can become correctly self motivated and don’t need any “law†– which includes the ability to not require of anyone else to adhere to some “law†- as a simple reflection using the natural implantation of conscience.
The Apostles' Creed seems to confirm what the early Christians viewed as “orthodox†or right teaching. The Creed are basic straightforward components of what to them apparently were “the more important things†that Paul the apostle spoke of.
The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
notes
The basic creed of Reformed churches, as most familiarly known, is called the Apostles' Creed. It has received this title because of its great antiquity; it dates from very early times in the Church, a half century or so from the last writings of the New Testament. *The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Focusing on “the more important things†allow persons to “all speak in agreement†– while at the same time holding divergent viewpoints in areas that could not be said to be “important†but rather along academic lines. Paul’s discussion of the meat sacrificed to idols debate illustrates an area that was not important – was not an article of faith.
Certain Christians felt eating the meat was wrong and others felt it was fine to do. No doubt neither side of the argument could comprehend the other side’s viewpoint and could have been inclined to exclusionist thinking – and taken to the extreme both sides would be guilty of promoting a sect by insisting that the other side was wrong and they were right. Paul closes the debate by saying both sides were right, and that neither side could rightly make the call that the other side was guilty of an un-Christian practice and deserving of exclusion.
In later centuries matters took a definite wrong turn when the exclusionists took over control of the ecclesias. Sure, this sounds very interfaith especially coming from the WT’s point of view. But the record of history clearly shows the folly of exclusionist thinking. It’s up to us as individuals to do what Christ said – “stop judging that you do not be judgedâ€.
Our freedom in Christ is the freedom to allow others to do their own personal math in areas of non-importance. Persons with the ability to include rather than exclude are not being weak in the faith but strong, by their example able to walk in Christ’s footsteps and trust that the Lord knows who his sheep are and its just not their job to be exclusionist when our Lord was inclusionist to the point of laying down his life for ALL sinners - not just the ones who would accept him.
The interchange that takes place amongst the inclusionist crowd is the meaning of iron sharpening iron, so the face of one man sharpens another - as Proverbs says. Rubbing up against a wide range of divergent views creates persons that are spiritually astute as they seek to test every inspired expression.
The exclusionist camp forgot how to do that sort of “hard math†because they are stuck in their little exclusionist belief set that no one questions – "why would we?" they ask – “we HAVE the truthâ€. No one has all the truth or Christ would not have said to keep on knocking and seeking. Christ said the door would be opened, but he didn’t say when.
Our mission is to show love for one another and build one another up all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
We can't do that if we exclude each other.
v
"Paul closes the debate by saying both sides were right, and that neither side could rightly make the call that the other side was guilty of an un-Christian practice and deserving of exclusion."
If I may make a comment:
This statement is incorrect: Paul did not say both sides were right. Romans 14. Paul says very clearly that there is no unclean food. But that doesn't mean we are to destroy the faith of a vegetarian by forcing him to believe other than what his conscience is telling him. The bible teaches [fact] that there is no unclean food. However, if you are stricken in your conscience when you eat questionable food (meat?), and you eat it anyway without faith that God's word is right, then you are sinning. However, if you have that weak faith in God's word, but abide by your conscience for the sake of doing what you believe is truly right, then you are acting in good conscience in serving God.
THAT is the central doctrine of Christianity: serving GOD with all your heart. You can't serve God if you're doing something you feel is wrong.
...but if a vegetarian or a universalist starts telling me that I need to believe this or that, and the Bible says otherwise, he is bearing false witness. Unity is not worth falsity.
Well, that was nice to come back to and read..........
Thanks Veritas and thanks to Gus for bringing it back up.
:) much love to all as always
dissnchntd1:hug:
Bears repeating. Thanks, Veritas Re.
Exclusionist thinking misses the spirit of the New Covenant that Christ set in place,
===================================================
Steam says: Christ has not yet set the New Covenant in place, that comes in his meditorial kingdom and the people will have to join the New Covenant and abide by it to achieve eternal life. The New Testament is NOT the New Covenant. The New Law Covenant will be made between God and Israel and Judah in Christ's Kindom and all will have to join in.
Get away from the JW's and the Watch Tower teachings!
Read Russell's books! He was "that servant"!
because it forgets that the “key†to success in following Christ is not rules and regulations but rather in the conscientious and responsible exercise of free moral agency – which when expressed in a fully godlike fashion requires no rules and regulations.
In other words the perfect expression of Christ’s teaching to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you†is by definition inclusionist.
Paul nails this point down when saying that "14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts; they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare. " (Romans 2:14-16)
The ultimate expression of the precepts of Christianity is when persons are fully attuned to their own proper nature simply from having been created in God’s image. Under such a bold and beautiful arrangement even non-Christian persons can become correctly self motivated and don’t need any “law†– which includes the ability to not require of anyone else to adhere to some “law†- as a simple reflection using the natural implantation of conscience.
The Apostles' Creed seems to confirm what the early Christians viewed as “orthodox†or right teaching. The Creed are basic straightforward components of what to them apparently were “the more important things†that Paul the apostle spoke of.
The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
notes
The basic creed of Reformed churches, as most familiarly known, is called the Apostles' Creed. It has received this title because of its great antiquity; it dates from very early times in the Church, a half century or so from the last writings of the New Testament. *The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Focusing on “the more important things†allow persons to “all speak in agreement†– while at the same time holding divergent viewpoints in areas that could not be said to be “important†but rather along academic lines. Paul’s discussion of the meat sacrificed to idols debate illustrates an area that was not important – was not an article of faith.
Certain Christians felt eating the meat was wrong and others felt it was fine to do. No doubt neither side of the argument could comprehend the other side’s viewpoint and could have been inclined to exclusionist thinking – and taken to the extreme both sides would be guilty of promoting a sect by insisting that the other side was wrong and they were right. Paul closes the debate by saying both sides were right, and that neither side could rightly make the call that the other side was guilty of an un-Christian practice and deserving of exclusion.
In later centuries matters took a definite wrong turn when the exclusionists took over control of the ecclesias. Sure, this sounds very interfaith especially coming from the WT’s point of view. But the record of history clearly shows the folly of exclusionist thinking. It’s up to us as individuals to do what Christ said – “stop judging that you do not be judgedâ€.
Our freedom in Christ is the freedom to allow others to do their own personal math in areas of non-importance. Persons with the ability to include rather than exclude are not being weak in the faith but strong, by their example able to walk in Christ’s footsteps and trust that the Lord knows who his sheep are and its just not their job to be exclusionist when our Lord was inclusionist to the point of laying down his life for ALL sinners - not just the ones who would accept him.
The interchange that takes place amongst the inclusionist crowd is the meaning of iron sharpening iron, so the face of one man sharpens another - as Proverbs says. Rubbing up against a wide range of divergent views creates persons that are spiritually astute as they seek to test every inspired expression.
The exclusionist camp forgot how to do that sort of “hard math†because they are stuck in their little exclusionist belief set that no one questions – "why would we?" they ask – “we HAVE the truthâ€. No one has all the truth or Christ would not have said to keep on knocking and seeking. Christ said the door would be opened, but he didn’t say when.
Our mission is to show love for one another and build one another up all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
We can't do that if we exclude each other.
v
Steam says: Christ has not yet set the New Covenant in place, that comes in his meditorial kingdom and the people will have to join the New Covenant and abide by it to achieve eternal life. The New Testament is NOT the New Covenant. The New Law Covenant will be made between God and Israel and Judah in Christ's Kindom and all will have to join in.
Get away from the JW's and the Watch Tower teachings!
Read Russell's books! He was "that servant"!
steamer, ... may i offer a suggestion?
please stop making dogmatic assertions about things which are merely your opinion.
please preface your remarks with expressions such as ...
-- "in my opinion, ..."
-- "as i see it, ..."
-- "my present belief and understanding is ..."
get the idea?
if you can kindly do this, it will be much less irritating to read your posts. ;)
your friend and brother, ... isomam
I didn’t realise this was an old thread – but lucky me, I got to read it because I didn’t see it the first time round. So thanks gus, in abstencia, and iso, present, for bringing it to the fore again, and a big thank you to vr who always presents the most well-conceived and well-constructed posts.
Regards,
Brendan.
I didn’t realise this was an old thread – but lucky me, I got to read it because I didn’t see it the first time round. So thanks gus, in abstencia, and iso, present, for bringing it to the fore again, and a big thank you to vr who always presents the most well-conceived and well-constructed posts.
Amen to that. :D
Bro. Steam - you said: "Christ has not yet set the New Covenant in place,"
However, there are many verses which say the new covenant is in effect now, with promises that take effect in the future also - notice the present and past tense of the words I hi-lighted in blue below ---
Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
2 Corinthians 3
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Hebrews 7
Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' "[Psalm 110:22]
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[or forever] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. [NIV]
Hebrews 8
The High Priest of a New Covenant
1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
What do you think?
:peace:
I didn’t realise this was an old thread – but lucky me, I got to read it because I didn’t see it the first time round. So thanks gus, in abstencia, and iso, present, for bringing it to the fore again, and a big thank you to vr who always presents the most well-conceived and well-constructed posts.
Amen to that. :D
Bro. Steam - you said: "Christ has not yet set the New Covenant in place,"
However, there are many verses which say the new covenant is in effect now, with promises that take effect in the future also - notice the present and past tense of the words I hi-lighted in blue below ---
Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
2 Corinthians 3
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Hebrews 7
Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
'You are a priest forever.' "[Psalm 110:22]
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[or forever] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. [NIV]
Hebrews 8
The High Priest of a New Covenant
1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
What do you think?
:peace:
====================================================
Willa; Everything you printed does not say the New Covenant has begun, only speaks of the New Covenant. The New Covenant begins in Christ's meditorial kingdom in the future.
Isoman, your peculiarities are not mine, I write as I wish! If you are the "big dog" on this Forum get ready for a fight.
Steam Psalm 50:5
Steam, or what ever,
Iso is one of many big dogs here. He was nice enough to give some kind advice. We may be dogs, but we don't like dogmatism!
Calling another Christian out for a word fight is not the way, Steam.
So our opinions differ. One thing remains the same, though - the Word we hear and follow says that Christ Jesus lives! He is alive forever at his Father's right hand -now- as our inteceding High Priest, and we are to come to God through ONLY him - bro. Russell died and is dead.
The Bible does not tell us to seek another(not even the 'lacaodian messenger') through whom we are saved. Good men say and teach good things - but there is only one Christ, one Messiah, one Savior, one hope and one faith - one to whom good men should point. I'm sticking only to Christ Jesus! I guess I am quite dogmatic about that!
Heb. 7: 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[forever] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. [NIV]
Peace to you - no fights - no 'dogs'.
:peace:
Dear Steam,
How can you prove that the New Covenent has not begun?
With Christian Love, Debbie
Well, I can understand why some believe that the New Sacred Agreement (Covenant) hasn't begun, for the promise repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12 was: "I’ll put my laws in their minds and write them in their hearts. I will become their God and they will become My people. Then, citizens of the land won’t have to teach their brothers about Jehovah, because they will all know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. And I will be merciful whenever they do things that aren’t right, and I’ll forget their sins." And this isn't what we are seeing today.
However, Chapter 9:6-9 says: "Now, once this was built, the Priests would continuously enter the first Tent to perform their sacred duties, but the second [compartment] was only entered once a year, and just by the High Priest. However, even he couldn’t enter it without blood, which he had to offer both for himself and for the sins of the peoples’ ignorance. And the Holy Breath makes it clear that the entrance to the Most Holy couldn’t be seen while the first Tent was standing… and this pictures the time that we’re now living in."
So, the indication is that the New Covenant started when Jesus (as High Priest) entered the presence of Jehovah (the Most Holy) with the sacrificial value of his perfect life. And 1st Century Christians must have recognized the value and promises of that New Covenant... something which is hard to find in the jumble of religions and beliefs today.
Well, I can understand why some believe that the New Sacred Agreement (Covenant) hasn't begun, for the promise repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12 was: "I’ll put my laws in their minds and write them in their hearts. I will become their God and they will become My people. Then, citizens of the land won’t have to teach their brothers about Jehovah, because they will all know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. And I will be merciful whenever they do things that aren’t right, and I’ll forget their sins." And this isn't what we are seeing today.
However, Chapter 9:6-9 says: "Now, once this was built, the Priests would continuously enter the first Tent to perform their sacred duties, but the second [compartment] was only entered once a year, and just by the High Priest. However, even he couldn’t enter it without blood, which he had to offer both for himself and for the sins of the peoples’ ignorance. And the Holy Breath makes it clear that the entrance to the Most Holy couldn’t be seen while the first Tent was standing… and this pictures the time that we’re now living in."
So, the indication is that the New Covenant started when Jesus (as High Priest) entered the presence of Jehovah (the Most Holy) with the sacrificial value of his perfect life. And 1st Century Christians must have recognized the value and promises of that New Covenant... something which is hard to find in the jumble of religions and beliefs today.
====================================================
New Covenant!
Steam says: Your suggestion that the New Covenant began as soon a Jeus entered into the Most Holy is incorrect.
The New Covenant is between God and Israel and Judah. Restored Israel s to be the lead nation of earth during Christ's Kingdom. All other people will have to join in this New Covenant thru Israel. Other nations will have to send people to Israel for the different feasts each year. This is not being done today but it will be done in the Kingdom.
We are still living in Satan's world, altho Jesus has returned to earth he has not established his Kingdom.
The thousand years called the Millennium, has been in effect since October 1, 1874. The first 360 years is the "Time of Trouble". These are the days that Jesus said, will have to be cut short or no flesh will be saved. This means the 360 years will be cut short.
His kingdom will be instituted after that. It is referred to as the meditorial kingdom. Jesus will be teaching humanity righteousness. Helping themto attain perfection, that as many as possible might be saved. They enter the New Covenant, the New, Law Covenant. It is a training program so one may attain eternal life. The Jews could not keep the Old Law covenant but these people will have to learn and keep the New Law covenant so that they might live.
Suggestion to those who have down graded Russell, read Matthew 24:45-47. Who then is a faithful and wise servant? Realize that Russell is "that servant", it is his writings that we are to study.
Don't be misled because he is dead; Paul is dead also. You do read Paul however?
Seems no one on this web understands the Plan or the Ages involved!
Read Russell. "Studies in the scriptures" 6 books, cheap.
As almost anyone on this board can tell you, I have a deep love and respect for CT Russell and his teachings. However, there are those who can tell us what he taught, but who never really learned his message -- or his ways of love and kind tolerance for those in the congregation who disagreed with his conclusions. And these dishonor his fine name.
"Pastor" Russell never claimed that he knew all the answers, and he would never have condoned any of his followers overlooking a clear abundance of scriptural evidence in defense of one of his teachings. Nor would he have condoned abusive words or threats toward other fine Christians who disagree.
Regardless of all the hateful things that some have said about him, it is apparent that he really tried to establish an organization patterned on 1st Century congregations, and I would love to join such an organization today. But unfortunately, even those who claim to defend his teachings most strenuously have come far from his teachings and ways, for they have turned his teachings into doctrines, and their congregations now have an unloving and self-righteous order that Russell never imagined. If it was possible, he would roll in his grave.