Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Would Jesus kill little children because their parents sinned?

Give me one good reason why ANYONE would be killed for something they don't have any control over. Would that be justice?

ive honestly often contemplated this,especially after knowing the catholics compiled the canon,seems to be a copying of ezekiel a bit and it very whacky a times,but heres some itneresting informaion (definately not mine, i am not so bold to write this)



WHY THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS HERE
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Steam says: Positively NO! The Revelation is TRUE, NOT HERSEY!
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QUICK QUIZ, SIX QUESTIONS:

Would Jesus kill little children because their parents sinned?
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Steam says: Some quiz, where are you referencing? Scripture please!
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Would Jesus vomit you and me out of the Kingdom of heaven for being only _luke warm?
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Steam says: Same stuff, you pervert the scripture by your question.
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Would Jesus change salvation by faith back to salvation by works?
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Steam says: You are not doing the best with your questions. Why are you accusing Jesus?
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Would Jesus direct his disciples to rule with an "iron rod" instead of love?
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Steam says: Poor use of info, perverting scripture by your questions.
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Would Jesus send you to hell for not believing every word of the Book of Revelation?
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Steam says: Pitiful! Did you write these questions?
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Would Jesus tell you he is coming soon and then not come?
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Steam says: You assume things in your own mind, not understanding that you are "blaspheming" Jesus Christ.
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Christians need to put aside end time speculations about rapture, the Anti-Christ, and Armageddon and concentrate on taking up their cross daily to follow Jesus.
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Steam says: Pray tell us how to take up our cross daily! Then explain these issues so we can put them to rest with correct answers. Did you look up Armageddon in Strong's?
-------------------------------------------------------------------Perhaps a closer look at the Book of Revelation will help them do this. Dare to compare the first twenty-six books of the New Testament to the Book of Revelation.
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Steam says: Nonsense! The revealing in the Revelation does not depend on the rest of the Bible for aupport; it stands alone, on its own.
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This analysis is in two parts. First it gives some history of this controversial apocalypse and next it details its heretical doctrinal conflicts with our Gospel.
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Steam says; It does not conflict with our Gospel. What is the Gospel?
1st Corinthians 15:1--10
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A careful reading of "Revelation" shows it disputes all twenty-six books preceding it. That being the case, it is heretical because it teaches opinions contrary to those of Jesus and his Apostles.
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Steam says: This is utter nonsense! A close study of the Revelation should open one's eyes[ that these visions in John's mind do not oppose the Bible but enlightens one to the coming events. NOT tyat God caused the events because he did not. It simply shows that God knows the end before it begins. Satan actions are open and exposed to God. Here God tells us of some of these events before hand.
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Heresy is defined as: "An opinion or doctrine that is at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, esp., of a church or religious system;" and, "the maintaining of such an opinion or doctrine."

Heresy is a tough word. It is even tougher for someone to accuse a New Testament book of heretical content.
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Steam says: "Blasphemy" is a tough word also and that is what is being done in this post. Blasphemy! Define it!
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The doctrines of Christianity are derived from the New Testament record of Jesus and his Apostles. These records are constantly reviewed for assurance they are accurate and no new findings of ancient manuscripts or archeology change Christianity's time tested records and opinions. There are twenty-seven books in the New Testament Record. The twenty-seventh is the Book of Revelation.
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Steam says: I differ with this declaration of principle; Christianity is a mess; a morass of confusion with the scriptures being twisted in every direction; it is Babylon! For the most part it is a money game, a business corporation, looking for financial support from the sheep. The doctrines are not all true and correct; misunderstanding is the rule. They don't even know the Truth About Hell!
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Careful reading of "Revelation" shows it disputes all twenty-six books preceding it. That being the case, "Revelation" teaches heresy because it teaches opinions contrary to those of Jesus and his Apostles.
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Steam says: More Blasphemey. A close study or a careful reading of the Revelation does not prove this; you are building sand castles.
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So you immediately ask, prove it! Show anything John of Patmos (John Patmos) has written that is contrary to Jesus' Gospel!
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Steam says: You are following a line of reasoning that doesn't make sense. One studies the Revelation to understand it not to dispute the rest of the scripyures. Phoney straw man created here.
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The answer is that almost everything in John Patmos' hallucination opposes the Gospel Jesus' words, ways, and teachings. All one must do is pay attention to what John Patmos wrote. That will be done, with some detail, later in this critique. But first, some general background information is needed.
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Steam says; YES let us have your proofs of "hersey" we can see your "blasphemy".
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The Greek literary styles of John Patmos and John Apostle were examined in very early Christianity to prove these are two different writers. Eighteen hundred years ago, Dionysius (Bishop of the Patriarchy of Alexandria) stated that "Revelation" was not written by the same person who wrote John's Gospel and Letters. (Eusebius' History of the Church, 7.25) His opinion came from his comparing their two writing styles and found John Patmos to be entirely different from John Apostle and any other New Testament writer.
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Steam says: Bull! Writing styles change with every new project for many writers. Remember John probably dictated and a scribe did the actual writing. John may have had poor vision by that time. 95,96AD. Read Revelation 1:9 in the Emphatic Diaglott. John says he was a captive in Patmos on account of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. On account of his writing the book of John and his giving witness of Jesus sacrifice, Jesus's testimony! It is the very same John. NOT TWO JOHN'S!
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We do not need to be Greek scholars to look at the text of the Gospel and letters of Apostle John to notice John Patmos contradicts John Apostle at every turn. Those examples are examined in this report. But now we should remember that "Revelation" was doubted in Eastern Christianity and not generally accepted into the New Testament until AD 508. Some ancient Christian branches still do not include it in their Bibles. Therefore discussion and criticism of "Revelation" is not a new and is not a disrespectful activity.
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Steam says; The Hell it ain't! Read what is said in Revelation 22:18,19. It is very serious to cast down on this book.
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John Patmos' "Revelation" is a hallucination he received while in a trance. It is a detailed prediction of the future. One can begin by wondering why this book violates Jesus' direct instructions to live a day at a time and not be concerned about the future (Mt. 6:25-34, esp. 34).
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Steam says: John did not have "hallucinations" he had "visions" which were impressed on his mind, same as Ezekiel and Isaiah and daniel had. The book is a revealing of the future, Satan hates it, he uses dodos to attack it.
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Before the actual heretical verses are listed, one can also wonder about John Patmos' extensive memory of things "seen" in his hallucination while he was unconscious - in a trance - " in the Spirit." He has inventoried all the eyes, horns, wings, lampstands, animals, smells and sights in great detail. Further he has given a verbatim report of all conversations. There is no explanation of his unusual photographic recall. But John Patmos tells us we must accept "Revelation" exactly as written or be eternally punished, (22:18,19). He neglects to advise us on which translation is the "basic truth!"
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Steam says; You are inviting God's wrath upon yourself by these wild statements. No one mocks God and wins. Jesus was a perfect man with uncanny ability to remember. John was provided with what was necessary, a long memory. Remember many people have been channels for the fallen angels; they do not know what theyu saw or said in their trances; John was not like that, he remembered every thing. The book tells us that God gave it to Jesus and Jesus sent it to John by an angel; thus it was done supernaturally, in the spirit dimension. There was only one translation to dal with originally. Much stuff was burned in the persecution of Diocletian 303 - 313AD, it was an attempt to destroy Christianity.
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At the beginning, John Patmos tells there are seven spirits before Jesus' throne. Jesus only told us of one - the Holy Spirit. Then Jesus says he is "the Alpha and Omega." This statement is new to the Bible, something Jesus never said before, and is not needed. John Apostle in his Gospel already taught us, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was made man. (John 1:1-14) Certainly John Apostle doesn't need any explanation about Jesus' nature.
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Steam says: John 1:1- and the Word was a god. (14) And the Word was made flesh
Why are you trying to make something different than what is stated.
Revelation 4:5- KJV "and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God."
It is God's throne, why do you think the statement about Alpha and Omega is not needed? God seems to think it was needed. Your careful study is not that at all.
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One also can wonder why John would faint (1:17) upon seeing Jesus when he had been with him throughout and after the Resurrection. Jesus showed John his wounds and cooked him breakfast after coming back to life. Why fright now? Obviously John Patmos is not John Apostle.
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Steam says: You base conclusions on very slim support. Strange when one has the suspicious attitude he is able to bring out unusual items to focus on. John was scared out of his wits and fell down as if he were dead; wouldn't you? Daniel did! Ezekiel did and they did not see Jesus but an angel.
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But let us go on. John Patmos says his "Revelation" is addressed to "seven churches in Asia" of things that must "soon take place" . . . "for the time is near." (1:1-4)

[Soon: " Within a short period after this or that time, event, etc.; before long, in the near future, at an early date; promptly or quickly; readily or willingly; in a short period of time; before the time specified is much advanced; immediately, at once, forthwith; sooner instead of later."]

[Near: "Close to a point not far away; close at hand; within a short distance; close in relation; close by; short or direct; almost; nearly; not distant; lesser in distance; close in time; near at hand."]

John Patmos predictions are addressed only to the seven churches in Asia, and not to the whole church, the Church Universal - the whole body of Christ. These predicted events did not happen to those seven churches "soon," in the near time.

At best this is a false prophecy. At worst, it is an out and out lie. Gospel Jesus does not lie because he is the Truth. Neither is he mistaken.
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Steam says: I pity the author of these words; what have you to gain from this blasphemy? You make judgments with out giving evidence to support them. Your interpretations are faulty to the extreme. YES the entire Church period is intended here, NOT just the small local assemblies mentioned.
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Judgment, good and bad, on seven churches listed (1:11) - is on the whole fellowship. Members are judged collectively, by association, and not as individuals. Here is "guilt by association" and not as individual children of God. (Contrary to Mt.18: 1-14, esp. 10).

Group judgment starts with Ephesus, 2: 1. Patmos' Jesus says salvation of the whole Ephesus group depends on them loving him more (2:4). "Revelation" contradicts Apostle John's Gospel that teaches salvation depends only on belief in Jesus (John 11: 25,26).
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Steam says; This is not interpretation it is judging the Lord's word. One has to do more than just believe. He has to prove his faith in the right things and you are failing. Jesus depicts the seven churches as a pattern of the Gospel Age endeavors of the nominal Church. There are saints in every stage of the church, mostly in an isolated situation and at the end in Laodicea the saints are called out of the nominal church into the Lord's barn. That was Pastor Russell's work.
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Smyrna (2:9) must remain faithful to death to deserve salvation. Thus, salvation of members in this group cannot be assured until its death (of all members or one or two?) according to John Patmos' Jesus. John Apostle's Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, thus he shall die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die." (John 11: 25,26). There is no revocation of salvation from our Jesus in the Gospels.
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Steam says: Thew truth of the Kingdom of Christ has been brought out. IT is a training session for people to learn righteousness and be perfected in the flesh but their last test comes in the "Little Season" before Jehovah, only then can they receive eternal life. John was speaking to the Jews who were supposed to be the Kingdom but rejected it. The apostles failed to deliver the Jews into the Kingdom as it would have been.
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Pergamum (2: 12) is in Satan's territory. It held fast and did not deny Jesus during persecutions. But Patmos' Jesus rebukes them for eating food sacrificed to idols (2: 14). Here Patmos' Jesus contrasts with Paul who said this is permitted (1 Cor. 8). Jesus himself in Matthew (Mt. 15: 17,18; Mk. 7: 18,19) said what we eat can neither contaminate nor improve our hearts (souls). The discussion on eating food sacrificed to idols came from the first conference in Jerusalem, not from Jesus (Acts 15: 20, 29; 21: 25). Patmos' Jesus will punish for this "affront." Compare with the Gospel Jesus (Luke 9: 51-55). Jesus came to save lives, not to destroy them. God's love wills that all people saved. Apostle John knows this and wrote it in his Gospel, (3: 16-20).
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Steam says: Pergamos was the church of apostacy. Left its faith and changed over to the world. Smyrna was the sacrificing church who proved faithful under persecutions. Jumped into bed with the Pagan Emperor of the Roman Empire and did as he said do. The Red horse of sin was begun right there.
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Thyatira (2: 18) has love, patience, faith, service and patient endurance. But Patmos' Jesus says that is not enough. They have a bad woman in their midst who causing immoral acts and the eating of food that has been sacrificed to Idols. Patmos' Jesus will kill any children born from adultery with her (2: 22,23). Which Jesus kills innocent children? Apostle John's Jesus is a man of love who teaches love, forgiveness, and protection of little children. Patmos Jesus will reward those who avoid this Jezebel and will turn them into hard and mean rulers (2: 24-28).
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Steam says: Thyatira has Jezebel, the woman which represents the fallen church, the apostate church, Papal Rome. She set up a counterfeit kingdom of Christ, "Christendom" in Europe on Christmas Day of 800 AD. Charles the Great or Charlemagne was crowned as emperor of the Holy Roman Empire and together they would rule Europe. And they did, sending Europe into the "dark ages". They stifled all progress by their looting and their opressive rules on the people. The Roman Church owned one third of Europe at one time. The Black Horse doctrine began in 800AD with the Holy Roman Empire; excommunication came. The peopel were trodden down under Papacy's feet; millions killed by order of the Church. and millions more were tortured. Stop making literal interpretations, Revelation is filled with symbolic words.
-------------------------------------------------------------------Sardis (3: 1) is judged by Patmos' Jesus as being dead for lacking works. If their works do not improve, Patmos' Jesus will come undetected and save only those in Sardis who have good works. Contradicting Gospel Jesus, Patmos' salvation is by works and not by faith. Also, Patmos' Jesus revokes Gospel Jesus' promise to never leave us, and to be with us until the end of time. (Mt. 28:20b)
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Steam says: John Wyclif was the angel to Sardis, he was in England and did great work for the time. But the number was small. His followers were known as the Lollards. He set up a hand made Bible factory, huge books and beautiful. Some still exist today. He wrote tracts and his followers spread them about. About 300 tracts. He was the light of that era. His followers existed for about two hundred years, 14th and 15th centuries. The "Pale Horse" showed up in this period about 1350AD; the horse had been black but a new horse of lighter color began to run about, because of Wyclif; a little more clear understanding of truth, horse was not so black as the one before. The "dark ages" were about to pass away. Remember the Roman Catholic Church was in control in Europe and in England; few real Christians lived. Jesus never ever left the Christians alone, he has been here all thru the Gospel Age, in spirit.(mind) Knew what was happening and to whom! Intervened as he saw fit. Guardian angels monitored each Christian. Every thing was open to him.
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Philadelphia (3: 7) has done everything right according to Patmos' Jesus. They have endured patiently. If they will just keep on enduring, they will receive their reward. Reward here is based on enduring rather than believing. It is these who endure that Patmos' Jesus will save. Those who cannot handle persecutions are outside the blessings. John Apostle's Jesus is entirely different. Our Gospel's Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him who he has sent. " (John 6:29)
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Steam says: Philadelphia was to miss the Hour of Temptation; write what is said! Luther was the angel to Philadelphia. 1517AD was the first trumpet. The true church was going to make a move from the Roman Church. The Pale Horse was moving fast. Justified by Faith, NOT by Pope! The Hour of Temptation came in 1799AD when Napoleon captured the Pope and took him into France. The King of England gave a license for the Bible to be published. Peopl learned to read by studying the Bible. Had the greatest Bible Students then; they began to form groups and leave the main line Churches. These were the 200 million horsemen, the Bible readers in the first 75 years of the 19th Century. In 1799AD there were about a half million Bible in the world, by 1875 there were more than 200 millions.
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Laodice (3: 14) is neither hot nor cold so Patmos Jesus will vomit the lukewarm Christians out of his mouth - expel them from the body of Christ (3: 15,16). Jesus in John's Gospel will "draw all men unto him" even the "lukewarm." (John12: 30-32). Patmos' Jesus qualifies who he will bless by their works, their endurance being the measure by which they are judged worthy to be saved and remain saved.
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Steam says: The Lord returned in 1874AD, by 1878 he had judged the nominal church systems as being useless to him and he dumped them as being his spokesmen. He replaced them with Pastor Russell.
The Present Truth came thru Russell. After his death it was perverted by others. Laodicea is Babylon! Confusion! The Harvest of Christendom began, (Rev. 14:17--19)
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Works are the basis salvation for Patmos' Jesus. That doctrine is specifically stated in "Revelation's" twentieth chapter (20: 12,13).

Our Gospel Jesus saves us by his death and resurrection. (Mt. 27: 51-54) Humans cannot save themselves because they are sinners. Through Jesus, we can be saved by God's freely given grace, and do the works of God by the Spirit he puts in us. We are not saved because of our works but only because he draws us to him. (John 6:65)
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Steam says: Being saved from death is not a guarantee of eternal life.
You have a guarantee of being resurrected in one of the resurrections because Jesus paid the price for you. Then your trial begins for eternal life; unless you are judged in this life now. THe High Calling runners are judged now in this life time. Others are to be judged in Christ's Kingdom for eternal human life thru their works then. (Rev. 20:12) Under the New Law Covenant. (Jermiah 31:31)
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Christians can know they will never die and will be with Jesus forever in eternity when they are born again. John Patmos' Jesus salvation by works takes away this "blessed assurance." The result of "Revelation's" doctrines is that no one can know their status with God until they are raised from the dead and judged (20: 12,13).
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Steam says: Christians will be in heaven as spirit beings, NOT here on earth as human beings. A Christian is one who was counted into the Body of Christ; such as the 144,000 and the Great Multitude of Rev.7
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John Patmos' Jesus is that of the Old Testament God, holding grudges, ruling with an "iron rod," judging our works, and viciously punishing. His is not the loving Abba Heavenly Father of Apostle John's Jesus.
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Steam says: You do not understand what is going to happen in Christ's Kingdom, probably you learned that soup the JW's put out.
It is not true! JW's are going to be the most amazed people when they wake up in Christ's Kingdom because of what they have been taught. It's judgment Day for the sinners and non believers; it will mean billions of people having to learn to live righteously. Israel will help them along the way as it is the Blessor nation to lead the way to righteousness. Won't need houses, autos, airplanes and busses. No hospitals, doctors, undertakers or Big Businesses. It will be more like the third world countries of today. Scratching for something to eat and a place to sleep. We don't even know what color we shall be. Where on earth will we be living? Billions of people; discipline must be tight! If you want to live, you must walk the Highway of Holiness. That is the New Covenant arrangement. Some refuse and they will die the second death.
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Obviously John Patmos is a saved Christian. That is why he can say some nice things about Jesus. Equally obvious is he is not the Apostle John, but a converted Jew who still thinks in Old Testament images. This brings about the contradictions listed and examined.
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Steam says: Your lack of understanding the Plan of salvation is showing; you really ought to learn it before saying these various things which are wrong. The New Law Covenant will be in effect in Christ's Kingdm; it is indeed by works that they will pass the test necessary of eternal life. (Rev. 21:7)
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Without much study and analysis, we know that the Gospel Jesus does not kill innocent children. We know the true Jesus saved us by his work on Earth because we are all sinners and cannot save ourselves by our own efforts - by works. We know our Heavenly Father is a loving father and not a cruel God planning to punish the World he sent Jesus to save. We know it is his will that everyone in the world will hear the Gospel in an intelligent fashion so they can choose Jesus. (Mt. 28:19)
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Steam says: You misunderstand the Plan of salvation, please read the 1st Volume, "The Divine Plan of the Ages"; which the Pastor wrote in 1886. "Studies In The Scriptures" It will lead you to the scriptures and show how to apply them. You are in deep dodo.
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Christians know full well they are not going to live eternally in Hell if they do not accept every word in Patmos' "Revelation." (22: 18,19). We also need to ask, which of the hundreds of translations is the authentic one that cannot be disputed?
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Steam says: No one "lives" in Hell, all are dead. That is not what these verses tell. Read them before posting them.
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Believing John Patmos is not a condition of pleasing God. Both you and I know that! There is absolutely no New Testament precedence for such an extravagant threat. Patmos' threat completely contradicts Gospel Jesus who said he came to save, not destroy, (Luke 9: 51-56) and promised to remain with us always (Mt. 28: 20).

We also wonder why John Patmos calls Jesus, the bright and morning star, (22:16) when that is Lucifer's description in Isaiah (14:11-15).

Considering "Revelation's" contradictions of the other twenty-six New Testament books, it is correct to say it is heretical when measured against traditional Christianity.

Some questions remain. Why would any careful Christian take "Revelation" seriously after reading it? Next, why did God allow it into the New Testament canon? One can only guess those answers.

I suggest that since it is in the New Testament, Christians feel obligated to accept it. Believing the Bible to be the inspired word of God, many dare not examine it as I have done.

But how can anyone take the Book of Revelation seriously? It makes no sense to us and there is no consensus of opinion about its meaning. After almost two thousand years, no two people have ever agreed on what it means.

It can also be a history lesson that shows us the type of person that was contesting with Paul about the nature of the Gospel. John Patmos appears to be like the people of the "Party of James," the "Circumcision Party," who wanted Jewish traditions continued in the Body of Christ.

It seems as if John Patmos was holding tightly to his Jewish traditions in "Revelation. Looking at his beliefs can show us why Paul developed peevishness against such beliefs and finally said of them, "Trouble me no more" (Galatians 6:17).

I understand Paul's frustration and want to say the same about "Revelation." I am tired of the time and energy spent on disputes arising from debates about it. I want to say, "Trouble me no more about it."

John Patmos writes to the Church at Ephesus. So did Paul. Did John Patmos and the Apostle Paul cross trails there, or was Paul earlier than John? It appears that Paul was earlier, but the James Party still worked there through John Patmos.

"Revelation" continues the ancient argument about "works" (James' Letter) versus "faith" alone (Paul) that is explained in Paul's letters, (Romans 10, esp. 10:4).

"Revelation" diverts our time and attention from studying Jesus. Debating it saps the energy we need to spend discipling to Jesus instead of proudly displaying our doubtful opinions. Those debates divide Christians and bring dissention instead of harmony. Satan is well pleased with our disputings about "Revelation's" meaning.

I see another reason for it being in the New Testament canon. It is our "final examination." We have read of Jesus' words, works and ways in twenty-six New Testament books before coming to the Book of Revelation. "Revelation" is our test to see if we can "hear our Master's voice."

We ought to know enough about Jesus and Christianity when we reach "Revelation," to realize it contradicts the rest of the New Testament. If we cannot easily see that, we fail our final exam and need to repeat the Jesus curriculum starting over from Matthew 1:1.

"Revelation" is there as an example of a false prophet and a false Christ for our own protection! Here we actually see and hear one. We have compared John Patmos and his Jesus to the Gospel Jesus. Now we know the difference. Recognition of the false ones will be easier next time we see one. Deception becomes more difficult.

Learning to "hear our Master's voice" and passing this "final exam" enables us to recognize and avoid false teachers, false prophets and false Christs when we next see and hear them - in print and on TV and Radio. False Prophets and false Teachers always add something more (a work) that we must do or believe, to the simple, free, and loving grace given by our Abba Father through the true Gospel Jesus.

If one still wonders about "Revelation," we really need to ask only one question. "Whose Jesus kills innocent little children?"

Not my Jesus! Not Apostle John's friend! Only John Patmos' Jesus does that.
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Steam says: You do need help, please stop posting these thoughts for your own life's sake.
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(not my words) found onhttp://www.christian-community.org/library/revelheresy.html

1 John 4:1 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

Here's another question to add to the list:

Why would God make His Word "complete" with 66 books?

I should probably add that I'm not anywhere near ready to throw the book out, but the questions outlined in this article should definitely be dealt with.

If you add the book of Enoch you get 67