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Found this article that alleges that the Society misquotes reference books to make what they believe seem right.

Did Jesus Die On A Stake or a Cross?

http://www.thejehovahswitnesses.com/inde...r-a-cross/

Quotation from “Reasoning From The Scriptures”. I underlined the words that the Society left out:

The Imperial Bible Dictionary:
“The Imperial Bible Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, (stauros), properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling (fencing in) a piece of ground. But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking countries. Even amongst the Romans, the crux (from which the word cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, and always remained the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a traverse piece of wood was commonly added…about the period of the Gospel Age, crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood.”

The Cross in Ritual, Architecture and Art by G.S. Tyack. Reasoning book uses a quote to show that the cross was originally used in pagan worship, but they do NOT go on to quote:
“In all this, the Christians of the first age would have rejoiced, claiming it as a worldwide prophecy of the Cross of the Redeemer.”

The Worship of the Dead by Colonel J. Garnier: Quotes from page 226 not page 225 which says:
“Sin crucified is Salvation, but it is only by one cross that the power to do so is obtained, and that Cross is the cross of Christ.”

A Short History of Sex- Worship by H. Cutner:
“Various figures of crosses found everywhere on Egyptian monuments and tombs, and are considered by many authorities as symbolic either of the phallus (a representation of the male sex organ) or of coition. Boring-Gould is of the contrary opinion and refuses to identify the cross with the phallus…..in Egyptian tombs the crux ansata (cross with a circle of handle on top) is found side by side with the phallus. The question of their connection is still hotly disputed.”

Needless to say, I was speechless when I read this. I couldn’t believe it. In my opinion, whether Jesus died on a cross or stake doesn’t really matter - it is the fact that he DID die for us that is important.

What shocked me more than anything was that the Society blatantly misquoted these sources to make what they believe seem right. It made me wonder: “If the Society lied to me about this stuff - what else have they lied about?”

First I had to see if these were actually true. Alex sent me some scans of actual pages to prove that he was not making it up. I also actually found a reprint of one of the books online at Amazon.com - so I bought it. It turns out every quote Alex sent me was true.

But he also sent me additional information from even more sources supporting the cross:

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON:
Authoritative lexicons give the definition of “stavros” as “a stake sunk into the earth in an upright position; a cross-piece was often attached to its upper part.” (Greek-English Lexicon, Arndt and Gingrich, p.772)

NEW WORLD TRANSLATION:
John 20:25 (New World Translation) (Thomas speaks:) “Unless I see in his hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

ARCHEOLOGICAL FACTS:
Archeology references available at the library:
IN 1968 one of the greatest archaeological finds occurred. The description is given in “Anthropological Observations on the Skeletal Remains from Giv’at ha-Mivtar,” written by N. Haas of the Department of Anatomy at Hebrew University. His article was published in the Israel Exploration Journal in 1970.

In an ossuary from burial caves at Giv’at ha-Mivtar in Jerusalem were found the remains of a man, aged 24-28, who had been crucified and died near the year A.D. 70. Though thousands upon thousands had been crucified in antiquity, this was the first time that archaeologists had discovered actual physical remains of a victim. The bones in the ossuary showed the man’s legs had been broken deliberately after the arms and legs had been nailed to a cross of olivewood. The single nail that had pierced the feet had penetrated the ankle bones and could not be extracted before burial.

“The whole of our interpretation concerning the position of the body on the cross may be described briefly as follows: The feet were joined almost parallel, both transfixed by the same nail at the heels, with the legs adjacent; the knees were doubled, the right one overlapping the left; the trunk was contorted; the upper limbs were stretched out, each stabbed by a nail in the forearm.” (The emphasis is my own. It should also be pointed out that the article has photographs of the ossuary and of the bones.)

Another archeological find:
The Palatine crucifix is the oldest depiction of a crucifixion. It was uncovered by archaeologists more than a century ago on the Palatine Hill in Rome. It is second-century graffiti scratched into a wall that was part of the imperial palace complex. It includes a caption–not by a Christian, but by someone taunting and deriding Christians and the crucifixions they underwent. It shows crude stick-figures of a boy reverencing his “God,” who has the head of a jackass and is up on a cross with arms spread wide and with hands nailed to the crossbeam. Here we have a Roman sketch of a Roman crucifixion, and it is in the traditional cross shape.

HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS:
“And because the cross was to express the grace [of our redemption] by the letter T,…” Epistle of Barnabas, ch. 9

“…the Spirit speaks to the heart of Moses, that he should make a figure of the cross, and of Him about to suffer thereon; for unless they put their trust in Him, they shall be overcome for ever. Moses therefore placed one weapon above another in the midst of the hill, and standing upon it, so as to be higher than all the people, he stretched forth his hands, and thus again Israel acquired the mastery. But when again he let down his hands, they were again destroyed. For what reason? That they might know that they could not be saved unless they put their trust in Him.” Epistle of Barnabas, ch. 12

“…but Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him,…” Justin Martyr - First Apology, ch. 35 (remember, Justin Martyr was one of the Anti-Nicene Fathers. He was on the committee to determine what was legit or not to be included in what is now our bible.)

CHAP. LV.–SYMBOLS OF THE CROSS.
“But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically. And this, as the prophet foretold, is the greatest symbol of His power and role; as is also proved by the things which fall under our observation. For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross.” Justin Martyr - First Apology, ch. 55

CHAP. LX.–PLATO’S DOCTRINE OF THE CROSS.
“And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, “He placed him crosswise in the universe,” he borrowed in like manner from Moses; for in the writings of Moses it is related how at that time, when the Israelites went out of Egypt and were in the wilderness, they fell in with poisonous beasts, both vipers and asps, and every kind of serpent, which slew the people; and that Moses, by the inspiration and influence of God, took brass, and made it into the figure of a cross, and set it in the holy tabernacle, and said to the people, “If ye look to this figure, and believe, ye shall be saved thereby.” And when this was done, it is recorded that the serpents died, and it is handed down that the people thus escaped death. Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe. And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, “that the Spirit of God moved over the waters.” For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, “And the third around the third.” And hear how the Spirit of prophecy signified through Moses that there should be a conflagration. He spoke thus: “Everlasting fire shall descend, and shall devour to the pit beneath.” It is not, then, that we hold the same opinions as others, but that all speak in imitation of ours.” Justin Martyr - First Apology, ch. 60

“…the lamb which God enjoined to be sacrificed as the passover, was a type of Christ;…and that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb.” Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 40

CHAP. XC.–THE STRETCHED-OUT HANDS OF MOSES SIGNIFIED BEFOREHAND THE CROSS.
“…for Moses first exhibited this seeming curse of Christ’s by the signs which he made.”….”When the people waged war with Amalek, and the son of Nave (Nun) by name Jesus (Joshua), led the fight, Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross, the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses;…” Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 90

“Now, no one could say or prove that the horns of an unicorn represent any other fact or figure than the type which portrays the cross. For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn. And the part which is fixed in the centre, on which are suspended those who are crucified, also stands out like a horn; and it also looks like a horn conjoined and fixed with the other horns.” Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 91

“And again, by what Moses and Joshua did, the same thing was symbolically announced and told beforehand. For the one of them, stretching out his hands, remained till evening on the hill, his hands being supported; and this reveals a type of no other thing than of the cross:” Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 111

“…and that He should be forsaken by His friends and those nearest to Him; and that He should stretch forth His hands the whole day long;” Irenaus Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 33, section 12 (Irenaus is another Anti-Nicene Father)

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Hi Bangalore,

Yep, I agree with you. It's immaterial how Jesus died. But, like you mentioned...

It's eye-opening isn't it? And the more you look, the more you may see. Be prepared (if you search deeper) for more mis-quotes as Isomam has already mentioned.

Here's a good link to the instument that may have been used in our Savior's human death. Note: May contain material that is 'shocking' to some. Please use discretion if viewing details about crucification may upset you.

http://www.frugalsites.net/jesus/crucifixion.htm

To be honest, after all these years, one has to wonder if the Society knows its "rear-end" from a hole in the ground. Here's somethings I found about the word "vague" that I think describes where the watchtower "brain trust" spends its time:

Main Entry: vague
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: indefinite
Synonyms: ambiguous, amorphous, amphibological, bewildering, bleary, blurred, cloudy, dark, dim, doubtful, dreamlike, dubious, enigmatic, equivocal, faint, fuzzy, generalized, hazy, ill-defined, impalpable, imprecise, indefinite, indeterminate, indistinct, inexplicable, lax, loose, misunderstood, muddy, nebulous, obscure, perplexing, problematic, puzzling, questionable, shadowy, superficial, tenebrous, uncertain, unclear, undetermined, unexplicit, unintelligible, unknown, unsettled, unspecified, unsure
Antonyms: certain, clear, definite, sure

If one seeks to establish his authority, it makes sense to establish it upon something that is a sure thing and then follow it. But I have yet to see much of that in the pages of Society literature. The watchtower bounces around subject matter like its a chinese ping-pong match. Most of what they talk about is so incongruous with Jesus' kingdom message, it's a wonder anyone can keep up. Maybe that's the point. A horizontal authority is harder to trace than a vertical one. Ten million pages of authoritarian babbling might be impressive to some. To me, it's a waste of trees.

gus

Hello Bangalore,

Sit down and have a cup of tea to aid your recovery from the shock.

Then continue with your probing and discover more - and you will - as time goes by.

Thanks Bangalore:hibye:

Tessa

I said it once here so I'll say it again - Stauros = Stavros = Kojak's brother

http://www.hellenica.de/Griechenland/Kun...valas2.jpg


2nd best cop show ever. 1st best - you decide.

Blessings on All

Son Of Korah

#1...Barney Miller :)
(True to Life...or so I heard!) ;)
Much Christian Love :grouphug:

Here is a link that lists many misquotes by the Watchtower.

http://docbob1.home.comcast.net/misquotes.htm

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Hello, sis CountryRoad. :hibye: It sure is good to have you pop in once in a while. Feel free to make it a more regular habit. ;) I love your upbeat contributions every single time. :) :clap: :grouphug:

your friend and brother, ... isomam

Good Choice - tied for my favorite with Hill Street Blues. Many NYPD, including my younger brother agree with the realism.

Agape

SoK

Some more info regarding misquotes regarding Cross or Stake in this thread.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Has anyone ever considered that perhaps there were 3 poles placed in the ground before hand. Each person was nailed to the cross beam which was then hoisted by rope into place. So what you would have is each person would carry this cross beam ( stake ) to the site where the poles were erected. They were nailed to it and raised into place. So you wouldn't have the person carrying the whole T shaped cross ( as portrayed in movies ) but the single cross beam.

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

Dear Bethelboy and All others

This is a very plausible possibility and I have expressed a similiary idea in another thread.

The different views, seems both to be a possibility, since some of the evidence gives support for it was a pole and others that it was a cross, whether the pole was in place and Jesus Christ and Simon carried the cross beam to Golgata or not.

We have to make our focus at the fact and the main thing, when Jesus he said: It is done :heartbeat:

I belive The Watchower Society have maked a constructive or better a wise choise, when they have choosen to promote it as a pole, rather than a Cross, Why;

Simply to avoid that it becomes Idolatry between their members, by worshipping Jesus Christ hanging at the Cross as The Almighty God Jahweh by kneeling and kissing him and by making figures of anything holy, whether it is in Heaven, inbetween, on Earth and under the surface of the Earth, which Jesus himself clearly declared that it was solely His Father Jahweh and not him, Jesus Christ as the son that we should worship, in thruth and spirit, in accordance to what Jesus Christ stated and as described in Luke chapter 4 verse 7 and 8:

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me (Satan), all shall be thine.

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God (Jahweh), and him (Jahweh) only shalt thou serve.

What was it Satan wished Jesus to do, yes you are right, do Satans will and fall down and do an act of worship.

If we read further in verse 9 to 11, Satan refers fully correct to the Scriptures, but misuse the Scriptures, in accordance to his own thoughts, purpose, goals and damage, to divert our attention away from Jahwehs commandments and the spirit of Him, as described in Psalm chapter 91 verse 11:

9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God (Jahweh), cast thyself down from hence:

10 For it is written, He (Jahweh) shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11 And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Psalm chapter 91 verse 1 gives the explanaition of whom is who and in 9 to 12, it comes forth:

1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty (Jahweh).

9 Because thou hast made the LORD (Jesus Christ), [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;

10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11 For he (Jahweh) shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12 They shall bear thee up in [their] hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

What did Jesus say to Satan, since he knew the spirit of his Fathers will and the law and how to read the Scriptures, simply because he was teached by his Father and not by doctrines of men, as described Luke chapter 4 verse 12:

12 And Jesus answering said unto him (Satan), It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. (Jahweh and not Jesus Christ)

I believe that The Watchtower Society have maked a good choice. with the possibility for a stake. Why, simply to avoid heracy and Idolatry between their members, as Paul he warns us all for in Colossians chapter 2 versus 18 to 19:

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head (Jesus Christ), from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God (Jahweh).

:drinking: :heartbeat: :cheekkiss: :hug:

Ps. We have already, in another thread seen and determed, that Jesus Christ is the begotten and beloved son, a mighty Angel with a name above all others now, but not over Jahweh as The Devine Almighty God and Father in Heaven, which we alone shall worship in accordance to Jesus Christs words and examples, but we can love both of them as individually for what they have done for us as humans.

Not even Angels shall we bow our knees for as described in Luke 22:41 and Revelation chapter 19 verse 10:

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God (Jahweh): for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Hi TA, You fail to read and understand the plain words of Hebrews 1 the whole point of this chapter is to show the superiority of Christ to all things.Why because He made "all things ". This is why it says The Father says to the SON: You LORD!!!!!!!!!The Father says to the Son You LORD!!!Then he applies (Ps 102:25-27) to the Son ( formerly in the OT about Jehovah is applied to Jesus by the Father!!!

He was made a little lower than the angels. What is higher than angels? God.

Just as Phil 2 says His previous form was God.

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

( how can He "make himself" go from having "the form of God" to take on the form of a slave,coming in the likeness of men. "The word became flesh" "The Word was God")

God the Father tells all the Angels to Worship the Son.

He then asks a series rhetorical questions,followed by applying 2 Old Testament passages to " The Son "

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”? ( rhetorical question ) NONE



And again:


“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”? NONE


6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”



8 But to the Son He says:


“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”



10 And:


[size=large]“ You, LORD[/size],



in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”


( These statements are by the Father " To the Son " )


13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:


“ Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? NONE



Matt 28
9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. ( The complete opposite of Rev 19:10 He accepts their worship )


BB:friends::happyheart::friends:

Dear Wayne and All Others

There is an advice in the Scriprures that states, the wise se the danger and turn around, but the unwise doesn't se what he / her is stumbling over and continue to his / hers destruction...

We have all seen in the Triny thread, that The Devine Almighty God is Jahweh and Jesus Christ His begotten and firstborn Son, which are two distinct different identities and personalities. They are both Gods in nature, one Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ also as a God but not The Almighty Father, they are both spirits and have the same goals, so it doen't matter who we ask, we will receive the same answer, like and when a child ask his father and get the same answer from his mother.

When it comes to a religious or political belief, where a person have maked e.g the Trinity or Binity to their religion or as a member of The Watchtower Society, who have maked the blood to an Idol, there is nothing that can move them from this belief, not even a premature death, since they are treathened to be or believe that they will misplease God.

It is in nature a kind of fundamentalism, like and when a Muslim believe that it is fully legal to kill persons that doesn't believe in their God, The Quran and their Prophet Muhammad.

It has been discused in the Trinity thread and it doesn't have or make any influence on a persons religion or religious beliefs, even what arguments that has and will be forwarded, a person that have maked doctrines of men to their religion, cant se whatsoever there has been precented of proof and it doesn't matter what the source is, even when it comes from the Scriptures. They are filtering the Scriptures or what is wrong and right through the lenses of doctrines of men.

The best examples are the Pharisees at the time of Jesus Christ, without any intension to call anybody for a pharisee, but in principles, how we humans think and make decissions, unable to se what is right or wrong, when we make anything to our religion, comming from religious and political leaders or Schoolars, their doctrines of men.

:drinking: :heartbeat: :cheekkiss: :hug: