Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Well back at it for a minute.

I know that their are those who are in support of Jesus never becoming a man agian.

But I would pose a question for any who might like to take a stab at it.

By reason that his death paid the price for us all to be redeemed.
How would you answer the fact that the wages of sin is death?
ok you say he paid the price for mankind. well that would not be true entirely as those who died before he came die in sin.

why would anyone believe that anyone could come back? if we get our wages we would be dead would we not?

the simple idea of being resurected from death to me says that jesus very well could have a physical body again and it not negate the fact that he sufferd and died for us.

unless the other possibilty is no one gets a body again and heaven is like so many religions believe already "some place up their" and that would not take back the fact that our wages should be death. or did GOD change his mind ?

it just seems to make more sense that when he siad he would not drink the fruit of the vine again until his kingship was in place if he was going to have some type of tangable body again.

TD

The "man Christ Jesus" is forever dead. He gave up his humanity for the world of mankind. He died a man and was raised a spirit. Do spirits have bodies? Sure, but their not human, flesh and blood. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

RR

Hi Totaldismay Good ? It is true that Jesus could never use the body he died in because that would invalidate the ransom.


On the day Jesus died his human body no longer belonged to him. It now belonged to his father. Jesus could therefor never take that human body and live in it again. That human body would be dead forever. That’s why when Jesus was resurrected he was not recognised. Nevertheless it’s worth noting that Jesus did put on a body after his resurrection. Is this an indication he could do that again? If he did that, he would not and could not use the human body that died.

The bible as you know has examples of angels doing the very same thing as Jesus did. Even the wicked angels in Noah’s day put on bodies. That power has been taken away from them only. It must be noted though that these angles who put on the appearance of flesh were still spirits and did not have the limitations of humans. Jesus when on earth had all the limitations we humans have. Why? He was a real human. But now he is a mighty and glorious spirit. Can he put on the appearance of flesh as he did after his resurrection? Well what do you think?

Jesus could materialise and put on a body and walk the earth, but for him to be completely human it would require another surrogate mother.
The question is why would he ever want to, what would be the purpose?

vicky

hi ALL..

glad to see this question come up again...

Vicky... (hi girl)... Angels have materialized in the flesh (or what appears to be flesh) and Jesus did this also numerous times after His awakening from death... He was a spirit being... but He materialized as a gardener; sojourner on the road to Emmaus; etc and only once in a form that resembled the human body He died with (in the upper room) On all other occasions the Apostles did not recognize Him by His looks... but by His heart... His actions and words.

He had, according to His own words, not yet ascended to His Father... He, although being a Divine Immortal Being, had yet to be glorified with His office. After that did happen following His ascension, He appeared to Paul as a brilliant bright light... knocking him from his mount and temporarily blinding him and affecting his vision for the remainer of his earthly sojourn. Never is it mentioned that Jesus assumed a human body after His glorification... but it is mentioned that He now "dwells in the light unapproachable, whom no man hath seen (since HIs glorificatoin) or can see (ever)" 1 Timothy 6:16.... He shares the same nature now as Jehovah... and John wrote of Jehovah that "No man hath seen God at any time" John 1:18 Again the Scriptures state "No man can see God and live" (however I could not find this reference tonight)

"We see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death..." Hebrews 2:9 After His death for us we are told that He was highly exalted above all principalities and powers... above angels... to the Divine Nature... far above being flesh, which thing is spoken of in such language as "He that was rich was made poor" (in nature).

John wrote in John 14:19 "Yet a little while and the world seeth me no more"... yet Jesus goes on to say "but ye see me because I live, ye shall live also"... i.e., the church would live and dwell with Him in the Kingdom and share His nature... and would thus "see him as He is"... not as He was. 1 John 3:2

______

as to the question of the wages of sin being paid if Jesus is raised from the dead... yes they are paid, so long as He was not raised back in the flesh... for He came to die in the flesh... as a perfect human being who was an exact corresponding price to what Adam was before he fell... the ransom is the doctrine of substitution... leveling the scales of Divine Justice...

God Bless

jonalfred :heartbeat:

1 Peter 3:22...

"He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."

...

New Truth

You have a very simplistic literal understanding of things... watch out when the sea is converted.... there'll be holy water everywhere ;)

Jesus is never to be flesh again... "I give my flesh for the life of the world"... your "only way he could be 'present' again" sounds like you are placing limits on God... He came in the flesh only because it had to be so in order to provide the ransom... hand for hand, foot for foot, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life... The first Adam was of the earth earthy... the second Adam (Christ) is the Lord from heaven. "Christ is that spirit"...

Battleing the governments in Armageddon... again you are taking figurative statements to be literal... Armageddon is the battle of good vs. evil... They looked for Jesus to be the great general in the first Advent... and they were sorely mistaken... you will find the same holding that same expectation.

NT... also notice that the sword represents God's Word... the sword of the spirit... the double edged sword... the Bible in both testaments. The truths they contain will slay the present evil world and it will be replaced with the that which is to come.

I'm glad you asked... he comes as a thief in His invisible presence... for He is not only a spirit, but a Divine Being... dwelling the the light which no man can approach... can you produce the Scriptures that show where Jesus will again be made poor and again become flesh and again dwell amongst men as a human and become a leader amongst them?

Hi NewTruth

Re: "Jesus is returning as a 'son of man' or a son of a human man."

Hebrews 9:25...

" Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own. Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself. And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation."

gogh

Well, given that his first coming happened in a way that was foretold but few discerned, it wouldn't surprise me if his second coming were to happen in a way that few expect.

Sure, Jesus could appear as a human again. However, I don't think he'll be wandering around Galilee, like the first time.

Still, there are some things to be resolved in human affairs:

(a) that the Promised Land was given to Abraham and his seed forever, unconditionally.

(b) The physical nation of Israel were promised a king like David who would sit on the throne of David, ruling the same territory forever.

© Here's an intriguing prophecy: "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south." (Zechariah 14:4)

There's plenty of fun stuff still to come, but since God has been patient with me, I'm patient with God to fulfill His prophecies in His own good time, and in His own way, no matter how unexpected :D

Hi NewTruth

A further scripture for consideration...

1 Corinthians 15:45...

"It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one."

Jesus became a life-giving spirit. Praise YHWH! Honour The Son!

gogh

Hi Jon. This point is true and thanks for that. Jesus has after his return to heaven received from his father Great honour and Power. As you say he is now made of the same nature as YHWH.

At what point though did he receive this glory from his father?

If humans are never to see Jesus ever again then that rule must apply also to those who are resurrected to heaven. They will be immortal like YHWH, and Jesus and of the same nature as Jesus. We humans can't even look at the sun so how can we look at Jesus heavenly Glory. So it appears from the scr that as humans we will never see Jesus in the flesh.

What is most important in this discussion is accepting that Jesus came in the flesh. We must believe he was a real human who would need his father to resurrect him. Believing otherwise would effect the power of the ransoms affect on us as individuals.
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Well,

I am sort of sorry to cuase a fuse, But the point was so verily missed again.

To be frank which I am, it doesn't matter at all. They can do as they wish.

BUt while seeking I find it hard to reconcile the strong stance that he cannot become flesh. as he is spirit only.

no one has put the point together yet. if he paid for our sins? why are we dieing? or maybe their is more to it.

also if GOD has the stance that it has to be equal scales. then again why would we be able to become alive again at all. (edited) Jesus death was one of a perfect sinless man, which I am not so it is not equal in fact he paid a higher price then I. yet I still suffer for my inequity.

So I stand at this moment on the ground that God doesn't require anything to be equal he just requires reconciliation. he repeately shows that a wage can be a gift, not do to our works. why must we continualy strive to be have things equal? it is alreadt unequal and will never change, (edited) Jesus was perfect we can never go back and start with a clean slate so we have a stain with us forvever, even if we accept the gift and turn around.

with that being said flesh or not what trully was the sacrafice. I believe at this moment it was not the loosing of his fleshly body.
I believe it to be the whole picture of what was laid out. he became lower then he was, he suffered indignity, he was mistreted, he was murdered, what is the flesh in the face of all that.?

it is the EMOTIONAL traumas that make the most impact. they impact our mind. the flesh can be healed or changed.

What was Satans problem "he thought to much of himself" what was eve's temptation she wanted to be "more then she was"

this leads me to beleive that it is not the death of the flesh that was needed as much as the death of "self serveing nature" within us.

AS usuall I could be wayyy out thar.. but I am only a human so have alittle patience.

edited
Just wanted to add so as not to cause issue, I do realize that the physical death needed to happen, but I am more trying to say it is the mental battle to be able to part with "life as we know it" which seems to be the real battle.

Luke 22:42

".... Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.”

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