Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello my family ...

I have Question for ya'll based on a comment in a Watchtower article ...

I guess this has has been 'spurred':cowboy: on by the audio on HOW CLOSE we are to the Great Tribulation ...

And YES anthony ... it WAS scary wasn't it ...:shocked:

This article is about keeping on the watch and comparing our day with Noah's time ... something I have been doing a lot of thinking and reading on this last day ...

One of the 6 things it points to to show us that we are indeed living in the last days when the Lord will come ... (although I thought he ALREADY did in 1914?)  ... is this comment ...

*** w00 1/15 p. 12 par. 15 “Keep on the Watch” ***

15 Third, we are living in the time of the eighth and final “king” mentioned in the prophecy recorded at Revelation 17:9-11. Here the apostle John mentions seven kings, representing seven world powers—Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Anglo-American dual world power. He also sees “an eighth king” that “springs from the seven.” This eighth king—the last one that John envisions—now represents the United Nations. John says that this eighth king “goes off into destruction,” after which no further earthly kings are mentioned.

So, is this not saying ... or inferring ... seeking clarification here ...;) that this 'eighth "king" ... the United Nations ... is ALREADY RULING AS KING ...?

That it indeed is a 'governmental authority'?

If this is so ... when did it happen? And have they changed their view on this since 2000 in case I missed it...?

Love to hear your input ...:love::eat:

Luv as always ... your everluvin' sis BR

A Watchtower warning not to speculate...(2001 "Stand Still and See the Salvation of Jehovah")

"Who Will Lead Gog’s Attack?

Gog of Magog is identified as Satan the Devil in his debased position since 1914. As a spirit creature, he cannot carry out his attack directly, but he will use human agencies to do his deeds. Who will these human agencies be? The Bible does not give us details, yet it does give us certain indications that can help us to identify who they will be. As world events unfold in fulfillment of Bible prophecies, we will gradually get an ever clearer picture. Jehovah’s people avoid speculation but remain spiritually alert, fully aware of political and religious developments that fit into the framework of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy."

Selam BR,

The Bible doesn´t speak of an eighth king per se, there are only seven world powers mentioned in the scriptures. The eighth one is not the image of the seven headed beast as Watchtower wants us believe, it is a resurrection of one of the five empires that rose and go down before John saw the Revelation.

We fail to see this, because in Rev. Chapter 17 John is shown only the beast with the seven heads and carrying Babylon the Great.

However, the angel who was showing John the destruction of BTG was speaking about two different beasts and not just one.

The words in Rev. 17:8 " The beast which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. " do not refer to the seven headed beast that carry BTG, it is an entirely different beast. It is a re-appearance of one of the five world powers that rose and fall before the first century. Which means this particular world power, when it arises, will not be a new one, but just one of the seven. This fits with the verses in Rev. 17 11; " The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven...."

This is similar to a woman/ man divorcing his/ her marriage partner, but re-marrying the one he/she has divorced once again. In this case, we can say that the second marriage partner is the first one.

It is also important to notice that nowhere in the entire two chapters of 17 and 18 is the image of any wild beast mentioned. The seven headed beast that is carrying BTG in Rev. Ch. 17 is the same as the seven headed beast of chapter 13. Just because the seven headed beast of chapter 17 that is carrying BTG doesn´t have the ten corwns of chapter 13, the Watchtower claims that the one carrying BTG is the image.

However, the angel who was showing the vision to John has explained the reason why those ten crowns are not there. " ...the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute....For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule..." ( Rev. 17:16-17 )

In other words, the reason why the seven headed beast of chapter 17 doesn´t have the ten crowns upon its ten horns as in chapter 13 is because it has handed its authority to the beast that ascendes out of the Abyss.

Love,

AR

Just listened to the audio. (As you know BR)

Have the evangelists taken over?
When do I chime in saying, "praise the Lord"?

When it was not hilarious it was down-right scarey

Hello BR

My understanding is:

The current seventh head, the Anglo-American Empire, will recieve a death-stroke. The governments will collapse, along with their constitutions, and their economic base. This will create a period of anarchy and depression. Their plan is to create "Order out of Chaos" by instituting their Global Government, which is already in place, the United Nations. This is the 8th King, the image of the wild beast. It is this king that has authority to act 42 months, and it is sanctioned by Jehovah, it represents the modern Chaldean, to bring Jehovah's punishment to his own organization, all religions of BTG, and the nations that he allows to fall to it.

Hope that helps

Lou

Dear AR,

The scripture says: "The beast which you saw."

This means that John had already seen the beast who was itself the 8th king. Can you show us where he first saw this beast?

Dear Jesh,

The scripture says: "The beast which you saw," not "the image of the beast which you saw."

Good question Don,

The angel was refering to the second beast John saw at Rev. chapter 13 in connection with the seven headed beast. That beast had two horns like a lamb, and in contrast to the seven headed beast that came out of the sea, this one " ascends out of the earth." It must have been under the earth,i.e, in the abyss, in order to ascend out of it.

Also consider the beast out of the earth in Rev.13 " exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight." ( Rev. 13:12 ) Perfectly fitting to this, John is told by the angel that the second beast of Rev. chapter 17 that comes out of the Abyss receives all the authority of the seven headed beast which now carrys Babylon the Great, when the ten horns hate the harlot and hand over their power to him so that he tears down the harlot from their back.( Rev. 17: 16-17 )

Brotherly Love,

AR

So Ar, you think the 8th king is the two-horned beast?

Yes, I think.

AR

Well, I see only one problem with that.

The 8th king is identified as "the beast which you saw, once was, now is not." This refers back to verse 8. It thus is talking about the beast that the harlot is riding. This beast does not have two-horns like a lamb. It in fact, looks exactly like the beast of Rev. 13:1 (cf. 17:3).

It seems so natural to take the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns as being the one described in 13:1, doesn't it?

The beast of Rev. 17 is one and the same as the "image" that the two-horned beast tells the world to worship. Both of these represent the New World Order, and the two-horned beast is same as the Anglo-American 7th head that received the death stroke and revived. When Anglo-America collapses, it will rock the world into depression and anarchy, while it is in the abyss. Then it comes back to power, in a new form, the UN, the new global government. It then goes on its rampage to annihilate any nation that refuses to give its power to it.
So in actuality, it appears to the world the same as Anglo-America was, yet it is not, but it exists in a different form. It's really not that confusing when you just picture a merger of all the nations. And that is represented by the ten horns, who give their authority to the wild beast for one hour, which is in reality, 42 months.

This all goes very nicely with what they have been planning all along. Its in the mission statement of the UN, and of the PNAC. How many different things can the beasts represent?

How do you know this? (All you did was restate your position.)

Don,

We the readers of the book of Revelation are similar to blind people watching a theatre. We can not perceive things as John do, because we don´t have the visual aspect of things that were presented John.

Now consider, John in chapter 17 is seeing the beast with the seven heads and the woman riding it. What does the angel mean by " the beast you SAW, once was, NOW IS NOT..."? That doesn´t make any sense at all, if he was talking about the beast with the seven heads. He can not be refering to the seven headed beast, because the seven headed beast stands there infront of John. He was refering to a beast, which was NOT there at that particular moment. Hence " once was, Now is not."

Probably John was wondering not only at seeing the seven headed beast and BTG upon it, but also whether the two horned beast is going to materialize, because he had seen the two horned beast in a previous vision together with the seven headed beast. The angel needed to clarify that first by explaining why the two horned beast is absent, before embarking on the explanation of BTG and the beast that carrys her.

AR