Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Dear ones,

As you know, Revelation chapter 13 describes two different beasts. The first  has seven heads and ten horns, and comes out of the Sea, while the second has just two horns like a lamb and ascends out of the earth.

The one with the seven heads seems to re-appear at chapter 17 carrying Babylon the Great. What it symbolizes was also explained to John by an angel, with the following words; " The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. " -Rev. 17:9-

So the beast with the seven heads symbolizes the seven world powers that rose in history.

But what about the beast with the two horns like a lamb? Who or what did it stand for? What role does it play in the fulfillment of prophesy?

Thanks in advance for the input,

AR

It could be the last world power that gains power just before the Great Tribulation and persecutes God's people.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Thanks Bang,

But the problem is that all world powers, a total of seven, are symbolically represented in the seven heads of the beast with seven heads and ten horns. Remember, the angel told John that in his ( John´s ) time, five of them had come and gone, the sixth one ( Rome ) is reigning, and a seventh one will appear for a short while. That means there are to be a total of seven world powers represented in the seven headed beast. So, is the beast with the two horns that came out of the earth a repetition? If so, why the repetition?

Brotherly Love,

AR

Hi there AR :heartbeat:...

I have a thought but no time right now to explain but I will try and get back to you tonight about it ....

Just remember that earth refers to the more stable things ( people of conscience or maybe firm believers as in religion ) ... anyway, just wanted you to know that I have been thinking about it .

Love always, LC :rose:

Eh...Maybe the Church of England?

So much like the Catholic Church.

God bless

Hi there AR ....:happyheart:

you wrote:

The Beast from the Earth

11Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
13He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
14And he deceives hose who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
15And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,  
17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

compare  Rev. 19 : 20

And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

So it seems that this beast with 2 horns that looks like a lamb comes out of the earth .. meaning a religious entity .... and applies to the false prophet .

I'm wondering if this false prophet is just now making an appearence as the combined religious entities of the world and that these will give the beast ( UN ) the power it needs to go against all those not supporting the future governmental arrangement of this beast.

but the beast will turn on this false prophet ...

Things are already in progress to abolish all religions as we speak ...

just 2 more :2cents:

This has been on my mind lately. and I think I will toss this out for comment.

First I have come to see that we must Identify what the "earth" and "Sea" are to recognize who and what these beasts are.

It's seems that the Sea might represent the "gentiles" and the Earth might be the "Isrealites" 12 tribes combined.

This is conjecture but if this were the case the first beast that come forth from the sea. would actually come from the nations. which seems to coincide with history.

And the second Beast that comes from the Earth would come from the decendants of Isreal. the Sheep "symbol" also seems to be an indication of this. for they are jesus Sheep and the gentiles are "the other sheep not of this fold"
And it is interesting because the second beast gives reverence to the first beast, and both co-exist at the same time. The first beast had a death stroke and was revived. Rome seemingly Died and we went into the dark ages. but our modern societys are becomeing more Roman like are they not?

If you read rev 13 with these in mind it looks to be much different then we were taught.

TD

Daniel 7:3
Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

1st lion /wings
2nd bear
3rd leapord with 4 heads
4th different from the rest with ten horns

if you add up the heads and the horns you have the 7 heads with ten horned beast. as far as my math goes. could be wrong

Daniel's four wild beasts come from the sea, and so does the "first wild beast".

The second wild beast comes from the earth. So did Adam - man. The second wild beast also has "a man's number" for identification. It's number is 600, 60 and 6... all numbers connected with man and the earth. God created everything in 6 days, and man on the 6th day. The earth was flooded in Noah's 600th year. Nebuchadnezzar set up his image of 60 cubits by 6.

The "second wild beast" celebrates the accomplishments of man, not God.

In 1776, the United States of America was founded, after its "Declaration of Independence" from 'Great' Britain. (And some 2,520 years after ancient Rome was founded!) It is nominally Christian, despite using Egyptian symbology such as the Egyptian pyramid and the eye of Horus on its Great Seal, which was later adopted on the one dollar bill.

America's Great Seal proclaims in Latin, "ANNUIT COEPTIS NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" - which roughly translates as announcing the birth of a new (secular?) order of the ages.

Seclorum is the word from which we derive our word "secular". The "old world" dominated by religion was over, and a "new age" of man was beginning.

Intriguingly, the number 666 can be easily derived from the Roman numerals of 1776, i.e. MDCCLXXVI

Simply by arranging these numbers into three pyramids, i.e.

M C X

D C L X V I

...these work out to...

1000 100 10

500 100 50 10 5 1

The bottoms of each pyramid total 600, 60 and 6 respectively - the exact same number as referred to by John.

Of course, whether this is a valid interpretation of John's words or not will naturally be open to question. But you have to ask why John told us to "calculate the number of the wild beast", if he'd already given us the answer!

It's like me saying... "Calculate 2 + 2, which is 4". Doesn't make sense. Unless John is giving us the answer, and telling us to work backwards.

(Intriguingly, the capital is Washington DC... where DC stands for the District of Columbia... but DC is also the first base of the 3 pyramids, which is 500 and 50 in Roman numerals, summing to 600. So you could read this as Washington 600!)

Really, the USA is fairly unique among world powers in that it has a number that definitely defines it, i.e. 1776. The same cannot be said of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia or even Rome - the exact dates of these powers coming into existence are not known. Not so of the United States!

Of course, we would perhaps be on shaky ground using 1776 to resolve to 666, if it were not also that the USA has often brought fire out of heaven on many occasions (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the "Shock and Awe" in the Iraq war), "in the sight of mankind" (just about everyone "saw" it), and has at its disposal unique buying and selling technologies that no other previous world empire had.

You can buy and sell globally thanks to credit cards, the Internet, etc etc.

It also models itself in many aspects on Rome - with its Senate, Capitol Hill, etc. Plus it uses the Latin language on its Great Seal.

And it has perhaps spawned an image of the first wild beast in the form of the United Nations... a body which can punish nations if they fail to adhere to its authority.

And not to mention its ally, the United Kingdom, with its very wealthy London "square mile".

(As in intriguing side note, ask the average British person how many historical dates connected with their country they can remember - there's usually only two major ones - 1066 Battle of Hastings, and 1666 Great Fire Of London. Weird, eh?)

To answer this question you have to look at the scriptures alone.
The bible states that the seven heads are seven hills where the woman sits on top. Five had fallen one was and one had not yet arrived.

You have to look at the words of the angel to get the answer as he says that he would "tell what the wild beast was" This would mean that when the angel was finished talking to John, John would know who the seven heads were based off the information.

In the Bible there never was a second meaning to a sign. For example when Joseph explained Pharoes dream the interutaion became LITERAL. Therefore when the Angel said that the seven heads MEAN seven hills the meaning became literal at that point. So they are literally seven hills.

It says that five had fallen one was and the other had not yet arrived and that the harlot was a city sitting on them. There was only one city that was ever considered a harlot in the Bible and that was Jerusalem or actaully the temple. Look at the facts

Jesus said that the pharasies were son of the devil.
Babylon the great was a lurking place of demons.

The Temple of Jerusalem was covered in jewels and precious gold.
Babylon the great was as well.

Jerusalem was a central place of merchandise as Jesus said.
Commerce wept when babylon the great was distroyed.

Everything seems to say that Babylon the great was JERUSALEM.

The seven heads...
They are seven hills where the woman ruled over five had fallen.

One had not yet arrived
Armageddon (MOUND of Megeddo or hill of Megeddo)

One was (Monut of olives)

That was also an eigth king.
The one that was also and eight apparently is the mount of olives as it was split into two mountains as Zec 14:1-6 shows ...

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost.

Note that this was written AFTER they came back from Babylon I believe.

So if I am correct the woman is Jerusalem who sat on seven hills which were places that God had caused judgement against his people. The ten horns are ten emporors that tried to take over the land of Judea but Jerusalem was getting in thier way and they hated the 'harlot' for this. As a result, they attacked the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Thoughts?

:clap: Hey Knightlock!! :clap:

:hug: Hows it going brother? While I would definitely agree that Jerusalem fits into Babylons description -- this scripture isnt talking about Jerusalem in the traditional sense > :hug:

All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 Twelve months later, as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?"

I feel that Babylons identity should not be solely confined to Jerusalem, Apostate Jerusalem, or anything historical. For sure, Jerusalem fits, but it seems to be a patterning that occurs like a tesalation of inter-woven dynamics that are still present to this day. Preterist and Historicist interpretation have merit and I think it is true, but I feel they are only part of the picture.

Open your eyes brother. imo, Babylon is all around you.

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:

First of all thanks for the kind words :)

I think that the difficulty is that at 1 Co 4:6 it tells us not to go beyond the things written. The main problem that I have is that it would mean that the answer to Rev would be found in the writings of the prophets and the apostles for anything else would go beyond the things that were written.

Still, I don't claim I have the answers so if anyone can show me where I am wrong I will listen to it.

:clap: Hey Knightlock!! :clap:

:hug: Thanks for your reply brother! :hug:

:dontknow: Very true brother. May I ask, where does it explicitly say Jerusalem in Babylons identity mentioned in Revelation? :dontknow:

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:

It is true that revelation does not call Jerusalem babylon the great but the discription it uses fits jerusalem to a tee.

She is called the mother of the harlots. Jerusalem was called a harlot.
Babylon the great was a city as was jerusalem.
The harlot as adorned with jewels and gold as was jerusalem (more specifically the temple)
babylon was called the lurking place of demons. Jesus said that the Pharasees were the sons of the devil.
Babylon was said to be the center of commerce. Jesus said the temple was a house of merchadise.

However you do make a good point about Jerusalem not being mentioned as far as I know but I will keep looking. If I do see it I will let everyone know.

:clap: Hey Knightlock!! :clap:

:hug: Thanks for your reply buddy! :hug:

Your right, bro. Historical Jerusalem does fit Babylons description to a tee. But personally, I have a problem with making historical Jerusalem only fit into it. Im not saying it doesnt fit, or that its wrong -- but what I am saying is, that historical Jerusalem is only part of the picture.

For example, the harlot of Babylon has on her forehead a name, part of that name is "mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth". Some translations say, "and of the idols of the earth". Idolatry is a disgusting thing. Yet how can it be said that historical Jerusalem is the mother of idolatry, when clearly it cannot be. One of the ten commandments was to not make a graven image to worship, or in other words, not to engage in idolatry. This would indicate idolatry was around way before historical Jerusalem came onto the scene.

There are other reasons I have for my views, but I wont bog the thread down with them. Im not saying im absolutely right brother, I am saying though, that it includes historical Jerusalem, yet is much bigger than that. Daniel 4:29-30 also, gives indication that its much more than historical Jerusalem.

May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends: