Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi everybody: I just finished watching a documentary about exorcism and demonism, and how those rituals are growing in popularity all over the world; especially in Italy.

This documentary reminded me of an experience that I had many years ago while I was doing the preaching work. We were preaching in a certain neighborhood when a woman approached me with the most unusual request. She told me that she had a problem and wanted to know if I could help her. I asked her what kind of problem did she have, and she told me that a woman she knew was possessed by the Devil, and asked me if I could help her getting rid of it.

This request really caught me by surprise and the only thing I could tell her was that we didn’t do this kind of things; I told her that we were a “Christian” religion, and that exorcisms were pagan rituals that we did not perform. I told her to go to a Catholic church because they were the ones who specialize in this sort of things. She look at me in disappointment and walked away.

It took me several years to understand how stupid my answer had been; it took me several years to realize that exorcisms by no means can be considered pagan rituals since Jesus Himself performed many.

Ever since I realized how wrong my answer was I’ve trying to understand what exorcisms really are; and most importantly, I’ve been trying to figure out what REALLY goes on when one is performed.

From what I know, an exorcism is:

“The act of driving out, or warding off,demons, or evil spirits, from persons, places, or things, which are believed to be possessed or infested by them, or are liable to become victims or instruments of their malice; the means employed for this purpose, especially the solemn and authoritative adjuration of the demon, in the name of God, or any of the higher power in which he is subject".

I guess my problem with understanding exorcisms has to do with the fact that the things that I’ve learned and believed about these rituals seem to be in contradiction with what the Scriptures really say about them.

I firmly believe that Jehovah’s Witnesses are indeed the true religion, and that makes this topic even more difficult for me to understand, since their lack of involvement in this kind of things is very obvious. Why is it that JW’s do not perform exorcisms? Why is that they are so negligent in this regard?

Often times I read or see on TV about exorcisms being performed by Catholic priests or ministers of other churches, and yet, in the 20 years that I’ve known Jehovah’s Witnesses I HAVE NEVER read or heard about an exorcism being performed by a JW elder or by a member of the Governing Body, why is that?

Does anybody know how many exorcisms have been performed by the members of the Governing Body?

If you look at the Scriptures you will see that exorcisms are indeed a crucial part of the Christian ministry; and yet, JW’s do not pay any attention to this matter, why is that?

Why is it that the true religion does not fight demonism head on just like the churches of Christendom seem to do?

Why is it that the true religion shrinks from this responsability, while Babylon the Great steps up to the plate and does what needs to be done?

“So he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, in order to expel these and to cure every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity”. -Matthew 10:1-.

As we can see, Jesus true disciples had authority over demons, and yet, that doesn’t seem to be the case nowadays, why is that?

The most confusing thing about this is that other people; people who do not seem to fit the profile of someone approved by Jesus seem to be able to do what JW’s can’t do, why is that?

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Bélial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols?". -2 Corinthians 6:14-.

If we go by the Scriptures we can clearly see that those exorcisms cannot be “Real”, and yet, when we look around us we would hardly believe that those possessions and those rituals are a hoax or a product of our imagination. So what’s really going on? Should we start thinking “Outside of the box” so of speak and come up with our own conclusions, even if those conclusions seem to contradict what the Scriptures say?

Does Satan Expel Demons in the Name of Jesus?

This is where things get very confusing, and to be honest with you, I do not know what to think.

On hand Jesus said:

“Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? -Matthew 12:25-.

At the same time the Scriptures seem to say something very different about Satan’s loyalty to himself:

“And it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a certain servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination, met us. She used to furnish her masters with much gain by practicing the art of prediction. This [girl] kept following Paul and us and crying out with the words: “These men are slaves of the Most High God, who are publishing to YOU the way of salvation.” This she kept doing for many days. Finally Paul got tired of it and turned and said to the spirit: “I order you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And it came out that very hour”. -Acts 16:16-.

I do not what do you think of this, but I personally think that Satan wouldn’t have a problem dividing his own kingdom in order to deceive us.

The Master of Deceit.

At times I think about Paul’s words when he said that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. There is no doubt that those words are true, and yet at times I suspect that Paul fell short when he called Satan “An angel of light”. Could it be possible that Satan not only transforms himself into an angel of light but also transforms into something that looks like God Himself?

“On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law”. -Galatians 5:22-

For quite some time I’ve been suspecting that Satan is far more powerful than we’ve been led to believe. The fact that mere angels cannot control him proves just that. -Daniel 10:13-

There are passages in the Old Testament that make me suspect that at times Satan has impersonated God Himself and has been successful at doing that.

Here are some examples:

“And it came about the next day that God’s bad spirit became operative upon Saul, so that he behaved like a prophet within the house, while David was playing music with his hand, as in former days; and the spear was in Saul’s hand. And Saul proceeded to hurl the spear and say: “I will pin David even to the wall!” but David turned aside from before him, twice”. -1 Samuel 18:10-

Does God have a bad spirit? This doesn’t look like the spirit of God that Paul talks about; in fact, it looks like a temporary demonic possession.

“And the very spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and a bad spirit from Jehovah terrorized him. And the servants of Saul began to say to him: “Here, now, God’s bad spirit is terrorizing you. Let our lord, please, command your servants before you that they should look for a skilled man playing upon the harp. And it must occur that, when God’s bad spirit comes to be upon you, he will have to play with his hand, and it will certainly be well with you.” 1 Samuel 16:14.

Does God have dealings with demons? Do they serve Him? Aren't they supposed to be His enemies? Did God really enjoy terrorizing Saul? I don’t think so. About you?

“And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel”. -1 Chronicles 21:1-.

“Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah”. 2 Samuel 24:1 - NIV Version-.

Would God had punished David for doing something He asked him to do? Of course not!!

And then there is also a Scripture that says that God Himself was unable to defeat a well armed army!! How can that be? Did the God that parted the sea; cause the Great Flood, and turned Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes was unable to defeat a human army? How ludicrous!!!!

This confusion has forced me come up with some conclusions that do not satisfy me because they seem to go against what the Scriptures say. At the same time I am unable to find an explanation to this dilemma.

Why is it that the people who claim to be anointed are not able to expel Satan in the Name of Jesus? Why is it that pagan and not so pagan ministers are able to do what God’s chosen ones can’t do?

What really goes on in an exorcism?

I do not have an answer to that question, and I can only tell you 3 things that I think about that:

Those demonic possessions are real.

The deliverance from those demons is real.

Satan expels demons in the Name of Jesus.

I know that my last statement is ridiculous but that is the only thing that I can think of.

I would really like to know what do you think about exorcisms and what is really going on when one is performed; maybe you can help me understand this confusing topic.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/184343/exorcism_in_islam/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...9602333596

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...7048012252

Terra Nova dont worry there is an answer to this. Shall put what my views are as an attempt at an answer to your complex questions. I shall try in the next few days probably.

I can understand the thought that demon-possession was something familiar in Jesus' day. There are plenty who could explain away free-demons in our day. Many preterists believe they're abyssed already.

Here's an interesting website that I stumbled upon:

http://net-burst.net/demons/demonic.htm

No good preterist would accept it; but I find it fairly viable. I will say that a mind is a powerful thing. Delusion is powerful. People are easily deceived. Evil is all around us and in us. WE are capable of unspeakable horror...even without being "possessed." The question is: Why would demons choose to possess people when their master so clearly controls every aspect of the world? The answer?

For fun.

Wayward angels have been known to seek after pleasure, especially in the human realm. Demons with nothing to look forward to are likely to exist entirely for whatever pleasures that can be had right now.

26-29 They sailed on to the country of the Gerasenes, directly opposite Galilee. As he stepped out onto land, a madman from town met him; he was a victim of demons. He hadn't worn clothes for a long time, nor lived at home; he lived in the cemetery. When he saw Jesus he screamed, fell before him, and bellowed, "What business do you have messing with me? You're Jesus, Son of the High God, but don't give me a hard time!" (The man said this because Jesus had started to order the unclean spirit out of him.) Time after time the demon threw the man into convulsions. He had been placed under constant guard and tied with chains and shackles, but crazed and driven wild by the demon, he would shatter the bonds.

30-31 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Mob. My name is Mob," he said, because many demons afflicted him. And they begged Jesus desperately not to order them to the bottomless pit. (Luke 8, Message)

The website goes a long way towards explaining why there's so little exorcism going on today. Demon harassment exists on the periphery. It has nothing to do with satan's "kingdom." Actually, I'm surprised he still allows for it. An exorcism affects nothing because it's not part of satan's ultimate strategy. It's a few soldiers having a little fun at the expense of some POWs. If it has any value at all...it's as a diversionary tactic. A flare for the dramatic to distract our focus from a world that he controls. LOL...we're swatting flies while Mothra devours the city.

gus

Hi Gus: Thank you so much for that link; it's truly wonderful. I read a couple of essays and I was impressed by the openness in which serious and uncomfortable issues are dealt and discussed. I am sure I am going to read everything that is in there. I am sure it is going to help us understand better such an uncomfortable and unpleasant topic.

Thank you very much once again.

Demons are very real and very active,if any of you go to the caribbean or any third world country where witchcraft is common you would be shocked.

Thats a good site though

Personally, it's my opinion that a True Servant of Christ, one who has the holy Spirit, will NEVER be possesed.

RR

Mine also,but.. one could unwittingly open themselves up to influence

Only if you 'play' with them!

RR

Recently I just finished a book titled "Possessed". It is the true account of a teenaged boy in the 1940's who was possessed and the month long exorcism that followed. Very gripping account, in my opinion. Although the priests performed the exorcism nightly, and the boy was thrown into fits and convulsions, speaking in demonic voices and all that each time, the exorcism was not successful until the boy himself decided to try to throw the demons out of himself.

This leads me to believe that the only relief from possession is for the victim him/herself to refuse the demon. In which case, you don't need the exorcists, you simply need the power of Christ.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter.

Hi Tammy: That might be true in that particular case, but what about the 1000's of cases in which people have been delivered from demons by ministers of Christendom or even by Islamic mullahs?

What really goes on in those cases? Does the spirit of God participate in those exorcisms? I find this very troubling because according to the Scriptures that cannot be the case:

“What sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Bélial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols?". 2 Corinthians 6:14

I personally consider the rest of the 144000 anointed ones the Pauls and the Johns of the 21st Century. If those exorcisms were performed by them I wouldn’t have a problem believing that they are real, but that is not the case.

What is most disturnbing is the fact that they don’t seem to be very interested in performing a task that Jesus delegated to His true disciples. How do you explain that?

Does Satan expel demons in the name of Jesus, - or in the name of Allah for that matter-?

What do you think?

The answer can be foun at 2Co 11:13 and 14: "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Hi RR-144: That is exactly what I think, and yet, that clearly contradicts the words spoken by Jesus, when He said:

“Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then,will his kingdom stand? -Matthew 12:25-.

How do you explain this?

P.S. What does RR-144 stand for?

These are deep questions you have TN - and they all lead to more and deeper questions!

Just what can and can't demons 'do'?

Can they 'materialize' - do they take up space?

Can they inhabit persons and/or things - and if so, what, when and how?

Can they interfere in our lives, thoughts and actions? Prayers?

There are just some things the Bible doesn't spell out, but Jesus and his apostles dealt with demons directly. :scratchhead: I'm not sure what the WT teaching is - maybe that truly demon-possessed people become a thing of the past, like other certain gifts, when the apostles all died off? If that were true, you'd think that faction would get stronger till there was a possessed person on every corner... :huh:

I've heard that about the Carribbean also - didn't Haiti just adopt Hoodoo(voodoo) for it's 'state religion'? Now that's scary 'cause those people are dealing directly with demons - they conjure(beseech - pray?) them up - they invite them in to 'play', asking favors and such. What do the demons get in return then? Are they worshipped?

I hate to say this outloud - but it seems demons are more active in 'ignorant' communities. :blush: I mean that in a good way... uneducated, superstitious, illiterate. Do they believe the folklore and see what they believe? Do I not believe and not see? I've heard alot of folklore, and I've never known even one possessed person. People want to blame da debil for their own actions all the time - but I think it's the same ol' cop-out - "it wasn't my fault!" :dontknow:

Strange stuff I've heard and read in my many years... can't say as I'd trust anything I've read - and very little that I've heard - lol. But all in all - evidently to 'turn away' from them, and anything to do with them, is the best course. To delve too deeply, even for curiosity's sake, is to walk into a darkened room, filled with evil and death - that's what Satan and his buddies are dealing, right? So to avoid problems with them, simply turn away from all that and walk directly towards light and the truth of God that's always love, as His Son taught so powerfully. They are our protection, light, life, rock, refuge, and our peace. :grouphug: We are safe in their love. :love:

:2cents: from your sister in faith, Willa
:peace:

Well I have to add is anyone familar with "hauntings" ?
I personaly feel it is the same as demon possesion for lack of better phrasing. And it is all over in the east coast of the usa.. they even have shows about it.

I beleive like many others "not to play" with fire. I believe the script I think of is "resist the devil and he will flee from you". I feel it is the same with any spirit.

I have a semi interesting comment. I was asked about a "spirit" that seems to bother a coworker. and without any real good answer I looked up how "spirits" were dealt with in the scripts and mostly all I came up with is to tell them to leave by the power of Jesus christ name.

So figuring it cannot hurt, and for a lack of knowing any better way, I wrote this down for her and sent her home with it. and prayed for her.
ANd the cliff hanger?
Does she think I am more crazy then the "spirit" for actually offering this as a suggestion ? don't know:D if nothing else I tried.
ZShe hasn't ever mentioned it again. I just figured she thought I was a nut so she never mentioned it again. :funnyface:

Hi Willa: I agree with you; there are things that cannot be known, and maybe it is best not to know them. I do not know why but this topic has always fascinated me, even though it frightens me at times. For example, yesterday I had a hard time falling asleep. I felt very uncomfortable after I started this thread and after I saw the exorcisms shown in the links that I provided.

Then something truly weird happened. I do not know if this is just a coincidence or had something to do with what I did yesterday- I want to believe it was just a coincidence-.

Some months ago I bought a set of CD’s called “The Bible Experience”.

Some professionals actors and producers got together some time ago and recorded the New Testament. They did such a wonderful and terrific job. I listen to it most of the time without any problems, but yesterday when I went to bed I wanted to listen to it but my CD player didn’t work. In fact, it doesn’t work anymore, so I’ll have to buy a new one.

Obviously, I couldn’t help thinking that perhaps that malfunction had something to do with what I did yesterday. Maybe that is the reason why I couldn’t sleep; I felt the presence of something watching over me and that made me feel very uncomfortable.

As far as the voodoo thing is concerned you are right; that is very scary stuff. Many years ago when I lived in Miami a story came out in the news. According to the newspaper a woman had been set on fire in her own house by an invisible force.

A few days later the same newspaper reported that this woman was from Haiti, and that that attack was the revenge of someone she had previously hurt. Apparently that person cast a spell over that poor woman and a demon did the job. I do not know for sure whether or not this story is true since I couldn’t verify it myself, but the fact that it appeared on the news makes me suspect that that maybe the case.