I have not been able to come to terms with the BS/JW/ "acccepted" belief that the co rulers will be in heaven "spirit form" and rule over the earth to help bring all of creation back into alignment with God.
also this seems to be the common place that other christians believe in just not the ruling from heaven part.
And I have found the following to add more to the thought that this too was made up.
Rom8:10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Rom8: 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies
For those who think that this is going to be in "spirit" can you pls reconcile these scriptures?
they wont,its a new creation a bridge between the two i feel, they wil do their priestly duties over the earth in that he will return with the 144000 to help those through the thousand years. the first scriture is good you listed the second is easily refuted if read in context, angels though can walk the earth,Jesus body wasnt desposed of as WT says, it was raised into another form a new creation him being the first.
heres something someone else wrote i beieve there are gleanings for us in it
Sit at My Right Hand Until I Make Your Enemies a Footstool!
"Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
Luke 20: 42-43
David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
" 'The LORD said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
Yahweh declared to Adonai that He, the Son, would sit at the right hand of the Father until the enemies of Christ were made a footstool. It was a common practice in biblical times that a conquering King would put his foot on the neck of his surviving enemy leaders, hence the term "footstool". The Son will put His foot on the neck of His enemies until the final enemy (death) is defeated.
Psalm 2: 8-9
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
Psalm 2 declares that the Lord will rule from Zion over the nations with a rod of iron. This description parallels with the description of Jesus' return to the earth as found in Revelation.
Revelation 19:15
Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."
Death is the final enemy to be defeated.
1 Corinthians 15: 23-26
But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death
Christ is the Firstfruits of the resurrection. He has already been raised in a glorified body. Next, when He comes He will bring the glorified saints to rule and reign with Him on earth. He will reign on earth 1,000 years until The Great White Throne Judgment is completed and death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire. When the last enemy is destroyed (death), the elements will melt with a fervent heat and there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth and the son will hand the Kingdom over to the Father.
Daniel 2:34-35
While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
Every other kingdom as symbolized in Nebuchadnezzar's dream was literal, earthly kingdoms. The rock that struck and destroyed those evil empires became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth. Therefore, it is consistent to believe that the Son's kingdom will also be on earth.
Is being born from above-filled with the Holy Spirit the first resurrection? No. Even the unrighteous dead, who have never been born-again, are resurrected.
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
1Corinthian 15:42-43
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
Resurrection is when the disembodied spirit is joined with its new, immortal body. The First Resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous at the rapture before the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Second Resurrection takes place after the Millennial Reign of Christ on earth at the White Throne Judgment.
What about the Scripture that states that there were some standing with Jesus that would not taste death until they saw the kingdom of the Son of God come in power ...
Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Remember, the original manuscripts did not have breaks (chapters, verses or headings). the very next verses are the fulfillment of this promise:
Matthew 17:1-4
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
Why did Peter want to build shelters (booths) for Moses, Elijah and Jesus at the transfiguration? Because Peter understood that he was viewing the promised coming kingdom and associated it with the Feast of Tabernacles
Zechariah 14:16
Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
... and the Scripture where Jesus said His kingdom is not of this earth?
John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
"But now my kingdom is from another place." At the First Advent, Jesus came as a suffering servant and not as a conquering king. But when He returns:
Revelation 19: 11-13
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
I believe that Scripture can be interpreted to have both a natural and spiritual fulfillment. Unfortunately, many who spiritualize the meaning of prophecy concerning end time events and deny any literal fulfillment do so because they refuse to see the kingdom restored to the Jews. Christian replacement theology is based upon Calvin's assertion that God has finished with the Jews and that the Church is now Israel. These claims fly in the face of the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. Paul in Romans 11 makes a clear distinction between Israel and the Church and so should we; especially in interpreting verses relating to the end times.
Thanks SOJ,
That was :ok: the only thing is , you said the second csript is easily refuted, I would say that it is not so since it is in the very same chapter as the first so the context is the same.
Just a point not being argumentative..:funnyface:
If I am reading your posts correctly, it seems there is disagreement to the idea that some people will rule as spirits in heaven.
If this is the case, I must add that I agree with those posts. I feel it is biblically sound to believe that no human will become a heavenly spirit. My path of reasoning goes along these lines:
PLEASE FORGIVE THE LENGTH OF THIS BIT:
Since the earth was originally intended to be populated, and scripture repeatedly tells us the faithful will inherit the earth with everlasting life, does this mean nobody is going to heaven? To answer this, let's take a close look at what the bible states regarding Heaven's connection with Earth (the following scripture quotations will be from the Holman Christian Standard Bible unless otherwise noted):
Revelation 21:1-4, 10:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea existed no longer. 2 I also saw the Holy City, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 Then I heard a loud voice from the throne: Look! God's dwelling is with men, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will exist no longer; grief, crying, and pain will exist no longer, because the previous things have passed away....He then carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me the holy City Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.
It is significant to notice this passage clearly states God's Heavenly City, New Jerusalem, will come down out of Heaven and exist among men. It plainly states "and He will live with them." Notice, it does not say people will ascend to live with God in New Jerusalem, but instead that God will descend with New Jerusalem to earth to be with men. This isn't the only scripture stating this concept. We can find this also in the following scriptures:
Ezekiel 37:26-28
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will establish and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 When My sanctuary is among them forever, the nations will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel."
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement does God's sanctuary have with idols? For we are the sanctuary of the living God, as God said: I will dwell among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
Revelation 3:12
The victor: I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of My God, and he will never go out again. I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God—the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God—and My new name.
So what we're seeing here is that we aren't going to heaven, it's the other way around: Heaven is coming to earth . Since sin will be destroyed, we will no longer be separated from God and His Holy Presence. Heaven and earth will be together as one, our segregation from God will be ended.
There is more to add to this if anyone is stuck here.
Love,
Tami
Revelation 14:4...
"These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish."
...
TD,
There are two kinds of "life" spoken of in scripture. There is the life in Christ now, and there is the life we experience after resurrection. Romans 8:9-17 is
very clearly talking about the former. The present tense is consistently used. However, upon verse 18, Paul switches to the subject of a
future hope. He does not spell out exactly what the "revealing of the sons of God" is, but I think he is referring to the resurrection (cf. 1 John 3:2).
Hi MM. Just a couple of thoughts on what you wrote:
Scripture repeatedly tells us the faithful will inherit the earth with everlasting life.
Not exactly. Scripture tells us that the righteous and meek will live forever on the earth. There is a difference. You make it sound as if the scriptures are talking about what the righteous individual will inherit. But the scriptures are talking about what the righteous as a group will inherit. Individuals can leave the earth, and still the righteous ones as a group can dominate the earth forever.
It is significant to notice this passage clearly states God's Heavenly City, New Jerusalem, will come down out of Heaven and exist among men. It plainly states "and He will live with them."
Those who believe in a heavenly resurrection do not believe that the earth will be depopulated. So this point does not really negate the idea of a heavenly resurrection.
I am assuming you do not believe that God will literally leave heaven to come live on earth. That would be impossible.
Hey Don,
Most if not all know I am no academic, But I differ with your present/future tense thing.
"he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."
The script says the spirit was living in them at that point. and that they would also be given life in their mortal body's.
where do you see that they had life in their mortal body's.?
See I see things the oppostie from you. I believe they had "life" at the present in the spiritual "heavenly" nature and they would recieve the physical back again due to their already being alive to God in the spiritual sense. Hence the reason "to not have fear of those who kill the body and cannot kill the soul." our body is a mear shell that God can destroy or create as many times as we need.
You being a historian can tell me what the belief of the Jews was as regards to resurection? Did Jesus change the place/hope of resurection?
he spoke of it not as far as I can tell. HE also proved that we can be spiritual and have physical form. IT was the being led around by "the nose" in our physical form that we need to combat.
Also Don, Can you tell me if any other culture from acient times believed in the resurection? I know the egyptians did. and they buried treasure with the dead so they could have it when they came back. I have always wondered where "Pagans" got the idea of becoming alive in the flesh again.
TD
Thanks for tryin to keep me sharp:D
Most if not all know I am no academic, But I differ with your present/future tense thing.
"he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."
Yes, you are right. That statement is future (though just about everything else in vv. 9-17 is present tense). So I take what I said back. Upon closer examination, I would have to say that this statement refers to a future resurrection.
Why do I say resurrection? First of all, because he likens their being made alive to Jesus' own resurrection. I am sure you can see that. Second, because in verse 17, he says they have to "suffer" before being glorified, and this almost certainly refers to martyrdom (see also v. 36).
You being a historian can tell me what the belief of the Jews was as regards to resurection? Did Jesus change the place/hope of resurrection?
Some Jews believed in an earthly resurrection, some in a heavenly resurrection, and some in no resurrection.
If you want to read an excellent book in the subject, I recommend Life after Death, by Alan Segal.
I dont Believe its nesicarily only either or i believe its a new creation able to be in both flesh and spirit in that those who come to "life" are not just what adam was they are what he could have been had he eaten of life those who are raised to judgement are like adam only not yet raised to life but after facing the devil again will come to life and be as the others are after drinking from the streams of life,those who are christ brothers are what adam could have been if he was allowed to eat the fruit and that is what Jesus was when his body was raised to a new creation and he could appear through a wall and appear in an inner room and still be flesh and could go to heaven and be above all other angels at the right hand me God
Dear Tami,
Your post makes a lot of sense and the OT Scritptures clearly show that.
Perhaps it is the Christians of the first century and later times who were so bent upon reaching to heaven and being one with Christ there,
that the oiginal idea of a paradise earth with God (as taught by OT) in it got lost somewhere. Thanks a lot for your post.
Farhat Zubair
Hi Don,
Thanks for the info, See I thought they only had the 2 sides, resurected or not. I will look into the book.
We will over time keep hammering out this "spiritual" "physical" resurection/alive thing :D
And yes I do believe that a physical resurection is needed but not for all, Not yet anyway. because I still have some questions as to wether or not physical death is a requirement. and as for martydom, I will like to go into that more but not now. All I can say is John was not a martyr, he died in prison. also I have some scripts in Revelation that point out that some will escape the physical "trails" or something like that.
Peace to you Bro
Hi farhat,
It is really good to see you post, I have often wondered if the idea was introduced as another angle to "be like God" in his realm?
which would then be another way to distract us from just living life in the right manner.
I realize this could be way off. so IT will take either God to reveal it or we just have to wait and see.. But I think that just being curious to see what we can learn thru study and prayer is ok.
It almost seems that people abhore life so they want an escape.
Peace 2 u
John 14:1...
“Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. And where I am going YOU know the way.â€
Where is our Master Shepherd?
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All I can say is John was not a martyr, he died in prison.
Hi TD. I don't believe John was one of the 144,000. The Bible talks about two resurrections. Only the first one is made up of the martyrs. I believe both of the resurrections are heavenly. I would place John in the second group.
Regarding those who claim the Hebrew Scriptures teach a future earthly resurrection, I can't think of one scripture that does. Not even one.
John 13:31...
" Hence when he had gone out, Jesus said: “Now the Son of man is glorified, and God is glorified in connection with him. And God will himself glorify him, and he will glorify him immediately. Little children, I am with YOU a little longer. YOU will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I go YOU cannot come,’ I say also to YOU at present. I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.â€
" Simon Peter said to him: “Lord, where are you going?†Jesus answered: “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterwards.â€
...