Donobo you are correct we do have a situation where scripture seems to contradict scripture,
christ was put to death in the flesh and made alive in the spirit
yet he also told his disciples that he was not a spirit but flesh and blood.!
Hi DP very interesting point something we could find hard to prove or disprove.
my thoughts under consideration at the moment is the timing/ sequence of what we are reading.
why did christ tell magdalene to stop clinging to him as he had not yet ascended to the father?
surely he must have been physical for her to cling to him
he had not entered heaven yet so it was not necessary for him to be a spirit.
he entered the upper room through barred doors how if he were physical?
and yet when he was alive he walked on water!
he evaded a crowd that had surrounded him and were intent on throwing him over a cliff because of his words!
he calmed a storm by speaking!
all activities not associated with normal physical people!
could it be he was physical until his ascension in to heaven?
"look i tell you a secret mystery we shall not all sleep in death but will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye"
is this what paul talks of the same as the ascension of Christ; a change from physical to spiritual body?
paul seems to say that it can and will happen to some.
so if we remove the idea that christ was immediatley made a spirit at his resurrection but actually recieved a physical resurrection followed by a changing in the twinkling of an eye ascension we can possible see a clearer picture of the forty days and his ascension.
elihu
I think Elihu may be right. I am beginning to believe that the resurrection of the dead and the ascension to heaven are two different events.
Exhibit A:
In 1 Thessalonians, Paul writes about the events that will occur in the future:
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thess 4:15—17)
The issue he is addressing seems to concern some members of the church who have died before Jesus' coming and the grief of their surviving friends and relatives (4:13). What seems to have caused the Thessalonian believers such grief is the concern that those who have died before Christ returns will miss out on his glorious return.
There are two events discussed: 1) those who survive until the end will be caught up in a bodily assumption to welcome the Lord as he descends from heaven; 2) those who have died will be raised at the final resurrection of the dead. If the resurrection of the dead follows the assumption of the living, the dead in Christ will be excluded from the joy of meeting the Lord. The whole thrust of Paul’s response is to correct this misunderstanding that those who have died will be at a disadvantage.
The message that Paul sends is clear. The dead are at no disadvantage whatsoever. (The Greek words translated “will by no means precede†are very emphatic and probably correct the erroneous view that those who are alive will precede the dead in going to heaven.) In fact, he says the first event that will transpire when the Lord comes will be the raising of the dead to life so that they can participate along with the survivors in the meeting with the Lord.
He does not comment on the status of the dead before their resurrection, except to refer to them as “asleep†(1 Thess 4:13-15; 5:10). He also does not mention the transformation of their bodies at the resurrection. He does not say what will happen when the newly resurrected and the still living meet the Lord or where they will be when they are with him forever. His focus is on one single point: that all believers—the still living and the newly resurrected—will experience these events together.
But we have more information elsewhere:
Exhibit B:
In Corinth a different issue had arisen concerning the end-time events. Some in the community were asserting that “there is no resurrection of the dead†(1 Cor 15:12).
A little background. Some Jews in those days believed in a resurrection and some didn’t. But even the ones who did had varying ideas as to how and when it would happen. Most Hellenistic Jewish writings that speak of a resurrection reflect a belief in the resurrection of an actual body, but not all. Jubilees and 1 Enoch refer to a resurrection of spirits, and Wisdom of Solomon and 4 Maccabees focus on the immortality of the soul. The writings that refer to resurrection of the body presume that there will be a single, future end-time event in which all the bodies of the dead will be simultaneously raised to judgment. Those who believed in the resurrection of spirits or the immortality of souls have various views on when the resurrection occurs. There can be a one-time resurrection and judgment of everyone (1 Enoch and Jubilees), or the spirit/soul of each person can face judgment immediately upon death (Testament of Asher and 4 Maccabees). The ones who write of a future resurrection don't often address where the dead people go in the meantime. Most documents that suggest a resurrection of spirits or souls do not seem to presume (or they explicitly deny) that bodies will also be raised.
By saying "no resurrection of the dead" some Corinthian Christians seemed to deny not necessarily a resurrection per se (see 15:11) but the resurrection of the dead body, basing their hopes instead on the immortality of the soul or spirit.
Or, another interpretation is that the Corinthians embraced the idea of a present figurative or spiritual resurrection (see 4:8). And thus a future literal resurrection was either irrelevant or not believed in.
Whatever the Corinthians' views, though, Paul responds by offering various arguments for a future resurrection of the dead (15:12-34).
Central to his arguments is Christ’s own resurrection from the dead, which, he says, they believe in (v. 11). If the Corinthians believed in an immortal soul, they would have seen the body as mortal and corruptible and therefore incapable of going to heaven. So Paul devotes a large portion of his argument to the question of how dead bodies are raised (vv 35-57).
Using the metaphor of the seed, Paul explains that there will be a transformation. The physical, perishable, earthly body will be transformed into a suitable heavenly body, one that is spiritual, imperishable, clothed in glory, different in substance from an earthly body, etc.
"Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability and this mortal body must put on immortality†(1 Cor 15:51—53).
The same components are present here as in the Thessalonian letter. At the sound of the trumpet (the trumpet that in 1 Thessalonians heralds the coming of the Lord) the dead will be raised and all will be changed, both those newly raised to life and those who remained alive. Notice he says, "We will not all die, but we will all be changed."
In 1 Thessalonians the emphasis was on a change of location—all will be snatched up together to meet the Lord. Here the emphasis is on a change in the nature of the body— the perishable body puts on imperishability.
There is no reference here to judgment (cf. 1 Thess 5:3-10), though comments elsewhere in the letter indicate that this event will include a judgment of all (1 Cor 1:8; 3:12-15). So I would have to equate this event with the resurrection described in Rev 20:11-15, which speaks of a resurrection of the dead, followed by a judgment.
So Paul expects the resurrection of the dead to occur at the coming of the Lord; and especially in 1 Corinthians he insists that it will be a changed body, a “spiritual body.†But the creation of this body has nothing to do with the resurrection, because some get this body without being resurrected.
Exhibit C:
"We know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus, and will bring us with you into his presence" (2 Cor. 4:14).
Here again Paul speaks of a future general resurrection of the faithful followed by an assumption into Jesus' presence. Paul’s basic conception of future events (Jesus' coming, resurrection, assumption) is the same. When Paul says, “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens†(2 Cor 5:1), he seems to suggest that immediately upon death an individual will inhabit a heavenly dwelling (that is, receive a spiritual body) and be at home with the Lord (see also v. 8).
Exhibit D:
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and it is from there that we are expecting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will transform our humble bodies that they may be conformed to his glorious body, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself" (Phil. 3:20-21).
Here he speaks again of expecting the arrival from heaven of Jesus Christ. At that time, Christ will transform earthly bodies into bodies of heavenly glory and the citizens of heaven (the faithful) will at last enter their true country.
On the other hand, in that same letter, Paul makes an interesting comment:
"I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you" (Phil 1:23-24).
At the time he wrote this letter, the apostle was in prison and facing the possibility of execution. So he starts reflecting on the advantages of living and dying. Living means being able to continue to preach the gospel, which would be better for the Philippians. Dying means being with Christ.
Paul seemed to favor living: "I know that I will remain and continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith" (v. 25). But his comments about the alternative—to depart and be with Christ—indicates that when writing this letter Paul expected to be with Christ, that is, in heaven, immediately after his death.
I mean think about it. It's an either/or situation. Either he stays with them, or he goes to be with Christ. There is no reference here to a waiting period. Have Paul’s views on the timing of the resurrection changed? I don't think so.
In Jewish writings around this time and also before, there is a recurring idea that those who have died in religious persecution will receive special treatment. In 4 Maccabees (and maybe also Wisdom of Solomon and Jubilees) immediate transition into heaven seems to be reserved for those who died in religious persecution. The idea also seem to be in Dan 12:1-2, where those who die during the time of distress are the ones whose bodies are resurrected to everlasting life, while “those who bring many to righteousness†(probably the leaders who helped the righteous maintain their faith) receive another kind of glory.
And only in Philippians 1 does Paul use the first person singular to speak of life after death. That is, only in this passage does he reflect on life after death exclusively in terms of his own future. And only in this letter does he write about this from prison while awaiting possible execution. I think he believed immediate transition to heaven was a special reward for a martyr’s death. This would coincide with Rev 20, which speaks of the first resurrection as including only the martyrs, and the second resurrection, of everyone else, occurring 1000 years after that.
Hi Don,
This is getting really interesting, and I hope I am not "playin the same ole fiddle to much their bro, I just would like things to be clear and it is a hard thiing to attian, for what I see in my mind i cannot put into words.
So again you say pauls resurection in ehp was figurative. I say it is not. I beleive the resurection has less to do with the physical than most people think. I personal feel that it was just an example that death was not to be feared as it was conquered.
I really like evryones thoughts and it makes me think,!!:D
and just to throw this out their the 40 days must corespond to moses wanderings and the flood. I think. Since Jesus was the greater moses he actually was the deliverer of God's people.
Hope it came out ok.