08-22-2007, 06:01 AM
08-22-2007, 09:43 AM
"In a statement, CIA Director Mike Hayden said that while the agency was meeting "the dictates of the law, I want to make it clear that this declassification was neither my choice nor my preference".
He added that two directors of National Intelligence had supported the agency's position against the release of the report.
Hayden said the release of this report "would distract officers serving their country on the frontlines of a global conflict.
"It will, at a minimum, consume time and attention revisiting ground that is already well ploughed. I also remain deeply concerned about the chilling effect that may follow publication of the previously classified work, findings, and recommendations of the OIG," he said.
When the CIA was declassifying the report, it focused chiefly on the protection of essential sources and methods and it was unnecessary and unwise to permit identification of officers below the level of Centre Chief, even if only by title, and those passages had been deleted, Hayden said."
Well...the "officers" operated within the system that was created for them. I fault whoever created the system. I also disagree with Hayden on this one. If the source names and methods are not revealed, who's to stress? I think 'lack of communication' in intelligence-sharing was a gigantic problem within the agency(s) involved. Their real bosses, the American citizens, need to have confidence that those problems are being addressed. Another lack of communication does not help fix what needs fixing. American citizens are entitled to know how their tax dollars are being spent, that their employees are doing the job they're hired to do - even IF they don't know precisely what the job entails. Communication is certainly an art; but we still live within a republican form of government. Israel provides an excellent example of responsible and effective intelligence-gathering and dissemination without revealing classified information. Of course, most of Israel's citizens see a threat as a threat while most Americans live in la-la land.
gus
He added that two directors of National Intelligence had supported the agency's position against the release of the report.
Hayden said the release of this report "would distract officers serving their country on the frontlines of a global conflict.
"It will, at a minimum, consume time and attention revisiting ground that is already well ploughed. I also remain deeply concerned about the chilling effect that may follow publication of the previously classified work, findings, and recommendations of the OIG," he said.
When the CIA was declassifying the report, it focused chiefly on the protection of essential sources and methods and it was unnecessary and unwise to permit identification of officers below the level of Centre Chief, even if only by title, and those passages had been deleted, Hayden said."
Well...the "officers" operated within the system that was created for them. I fault whoever created the system. I also disagree with Hayden on this one. If the source names and methods are not revealed, who's to stress? I think 'lack of communication' in intelligence-sharing was a gigantic problem within the agency(s) involved. Their real bosses, the American citizens, need to have confidence that those problems are being addressed. Another lack of communication does not help fix what needs fixing. American citizens are entitled to know how their tax dollars are being spent, that their employees are doing the job they're hired to do - even IF they don't know precisely what the job entails. Communication is certainly an art; but we still live within a republican form of government. Israel provides an excellent example of responsible and effective intelligence-gathering and dissemination without revealing classified information. Of course, most of Israel's citizens see a threat as a threat while most Americans live in la-la land.
gus
08-22-2007, 02:19 PM
Re: "...most Americans live in la-la land."
Do these Americans live in "la-la land" also, Gus...iyo (in your opinion)?
"Professors Question the 9/11 Commission Report"
http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html
...
Do these Americans live in "la-la land" also, Gus...iyo (in your opinion)?
"Professors Question the 9/11 Commission Report"
http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html
...
08-22-2007, 09:35 PM
gogh Wrote:
Re: "...most Americans live in la-la land."
Do these Americans live in "la-la land" also, Gus...iyo (in your opinion)?
"Professors Question the 9/11 Commission Report"
http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html
...
Do these Americans live in "la-la land" also, Gus...iyo (in your opinion)?
"Professors Question the 9/11 Commission Report"
http://patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html
...
I know the old bait and switch, Gogh.
Many well known and respected professors have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report.
Do I even need to answer that? WHAT "well known and respected professors"? The only people they're respected by are other college professors. Academic inbreeding. Really, Bro...of all the occupations in the world to choose to make your point...you choose college professors? LOL...I'd rather hear from the sanitary worker's union. There is no more agenda-driven bunch on the face of the earth than "college professors" ...except maybe radical Islam and the watchtower society. Eighty-nine percent of them "profess" exactly the same thing, every time, all the time. If they don't, they don't work. No...college professors don't live in la-la land. They know exactly what they're doing: taking America's youth for the ride of their lives.
And here I thought I'd posted something that we could agree on...
gus
08-23-2007, 12:57 AM
I think we agree on some things, Gus.
On of the things we disagree on, is gravity.
"...an object starting from rest will attain a speed of 9.807 m/s (32.17 ft/s) after one second, 19.614 m/s (64.34 ft/s) after two seconds, and so on."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation
The "official" theory (re:9/11) contradicts gravity.
You state you believe the "official" explaination.
Therefore we have a difference of belief/opinion regarding....gravity.
Christian love and appreciation,
gogh
...
On of the things we disagree on, is gravity.
"...an object starting from rest will attain a speed of 9.807 m/s (32.17 ft/s) after one second, 19.614 m/s (64.34 ft/s) after two seconds, and so on."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation
The "official" theory (re:9/11) contradicts gravity.
You state you believe the "official" explaination.
Therefore we have a difference of belief/opinion regarding....gravity.
Christian love and appreciation,
gogh
...
08-23-2007, 03:18 PM
A quote:
"free men have the choice to return to the cave, which means
either facing the unknowing prisoners with new insight, and either staying in the cave or compelling others to leave and experience freedom – of body and mind - for themselves. Unfortunately, those who choose to return to help free their fellow prisoners are usually rewarded with disbelief, fear, ridicule, and exile. The new worldview is always the first
to be challenged or censured by whatever means necessary when a preexisting worldview is to be maintained. In fact, there is a term for this psychological phenomenon called naïve realism, which is the tendency to believe that oneself always sees and responds to the world objectively, and thus when others do not agree, it is because their behavior is
not based on reality (Ross and Ward, 1995, 1996)."
from: "Rebuilding the Road to Freedom of Reason"
By
Laurie A. Manwell
http://journalof911studies.com/volume/20...PartII.pdf
...
"free men have the choice to return to the cave, which means
either facing the unknowing prisoners with new insight, and either staying in the cave or compelling others to leave and experience freedom – of body and mind - for themselves. Unfortunately, those who choose to return to help free their fellow prisoners are usually rewarded with disbelief, fear, ridicule, and exile. The new worldview is always the first
to be challenged or censured by whatever means necessary when a preexisting worldview is to be maintained. In fact, there is a term for this psychological phenomenon called naïve realism, which is the tendency to believe that oneself always sees and responds to the world objectively, and thus when others do not agree, it is because their behavior is
not based on reality (Ross and Ward, 1995, 1996)."
from: "Rebuilding the Road to Freedom of Reason"
By
Laurie A. Manwell
http://journalof911studies.com/volume/20...PartII.pdf
...
08-23-2007, 04:05 PM
If you enjoyed part two, here is part one (grin):
"Demolishing the Iconic Psychological Barriers to 9/11 Truth"
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volum...Part_I.pdf
...
"Demolishing the Iconic Psychological Barriers to 9/11 Truth"
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volum...Part_I.pdf
...
08-23-2007, 10:22 PM
gogh Wrote:
I think we agree on some things, Gus.
On of the things we disagree on, is gravity.
"...an object starting from rest will attain a speed of 9.807 m/s (32.17 ft/s) after one second, 19.614 m/s (64.34 ft/s) after two seconds, and so on."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation
The "official" theory (re:9/11) contradicts gravity.
You state you believe the "official" explaination.
Therefore we have a difference of belief/opinion regarding....gravity.
Christian love and appreciation,
gogh
...
On of the things we disagree on, is gravity.
"...an object starting from rest will attain a speed of 9.807 m/s (32.17 ft/s) after one second, 19.614 m/s (64.34 ft/s) after two seconds, and so on."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation
The "official" theory (re:9/11) contradicts gravity.
You state you believe the "official" explaination.
Therefore we have a difference of belief/opinion regarding....gravity.
Christian love and appreciation,
gogh
...
I don't agree with or disagree with the official explanation, bro. It doesn't matter. I said the official explanation works for me...like gravity works for me. You have your "experts" on the matter of a pre-planned WTC free-fall. I know differently. So...I have reason not to believe your "experts." Makes sense to me anyway.
But, then again (and again and again...), it doesn't matter.
gus
08-24-2007, 03:26 PM
Hi Gus
Re: "it doesn't matter."
A quote: (from "Demolishing the Iconic Psychological Barriers to 9/11
Truth - Part One" page 35)
"when people feel that their beliefs are threatened they will not only turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to alternative accounts of 9/11, but will aggressively attempt to counter such evidence using illogical and rhetorical means such as dismissal, defamation, derogation, and intimidation,..."
It seems your "it doesn't matter" opinion/attitude is also dismissive.(imo)
This reminds me of how YHWH felt about the pre flood human condition...
"Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart." (Genesis 6:5...)
Every aspect of the condition (current) of the human family concerns Jehovah. It matters to Him. He cares. He has, is and continues to offer hope by means of Christ Jesus.
Is this not a principle, explaining that it reflects Jehovah's feeling about things that happen that are unjust....": “Pass through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and you must put a mark on the foreheads of the men that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of it.†(Ezekial 9:4...)
As terrible things occur in this world....does this scripture not provide assurance...“Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.†(Luke 21:25...)
Did the current affairs surrounding Lot matter to him? Yes. Lot was greatly distressed.
2 Peter 2:7...";and he delivered righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the indulgence of the law-defying people in loose conduct— for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds— Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial,..."
Christian love,
gogh
Re: "it doesn't matter."
A quote: (from "Demolishing the Iconic Psychological Barriers to 9/11
Truth - Part One" page 35)
"when people feel that their beliefs are threatened they will not only turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to alternative accounts of 9/11, but will aggressively attempt to counter such evidence using illogical and rhetorical means such as dismissal, defamation, derogation, and intimidation,..."
It seems your "it doesn't matter" opinion/attitude is also dismissive.(imo)
This reminds me of how YHWH felt about the pre flood human condition...
"Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart." (Genesis 6:5...)
Every aspect of the condition (current) of the human family concerns Jehovah. It matters to Him. He cares. He has, is and continues to offer hope by means of Christ Jesus.
Is this not a principle, explaining that it reflects Jehovah's feeling about things that happen that are unjust....": “Pass through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and you must put a mark on the foreheads of the men that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of it.†(Ezekial 9:4...)
As terrible things occur in this world....does this scripture not provide assurance...“Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.†(Luke 21:25...)
Did the current affairs surrounding Lot matter to him? Yes. Lot was greatly distressed.
2 Peter 2:7...";and he delivered righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the indulgence of the law-defying people in loose conduct— for that righteous man by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds— Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial,..."
Christian love,
gogh
08-24-2007, 07:03 PM
All of the "bolding" doesn't change the fact that, in the kingdom, whatever we do here honestly makes no difference. It's up to you if you want to keeping fighting shadows.
18 It's best to stay in touch with both sides of an issue. A person who fears God deals responsibly with all of reality, not just a piece of it.
28 But the wisdom I've looked for I haven't found. I didn't find one man or woman in a thousand worth my while. Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.(Eccl.1, Message)
You really don't care what I believe or know to be a fact anyway. Sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself.
gus
18 It's best to stay in touch with both sides of an issue. A person who fears God deals responsibly with all of reality, not just a piece of it.
28 But the wisdom I've looked for I haven't found. I didn't find one man or woman in a thousand worth my while. Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.(Eccl.1, Message)
You really don't care what I believe or know to be a fact anyway. Sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself.
gus
08-24-2007, 08:15 PM
i dont know wether either or both of you have an issue related to this subject. But i would like to know why you are trying to convince Gus of something.
08-25-2007, 08:36 AM
9/11 Documentaries Challenge America.
By Aaron Wolfe
http://media.www.siude.com/media/storage...3692.shtml
Americans love a good conspiracy theory. JFK, Roswell and CIA "black ops" have become a unique part of our culture, spawning countless movies and books that straddle various degrees of reality. They are the guilty pleasures of our country; dust gathering in the corner of the room that, for several reasons, we refuse to sweep.
However, there is one theory that is not so innocuous. It has become so controversial and taboo that we have created a new cliché to deal with it.
There are now three things you don't speak about at the dinner table: religion, politics and 9/11.
One can scarcely find a subject that causes more screaming matches than "direct-to-Internet" movies like "9/11 Mysteries", "Loose Change" and "Painful Deceptions". The directors of these films are occasionally spotlighted on major news networks, and often find themselves under intense scrutiny or denounced as unpatriotic fools. President Bush, himself, accused conspiracy theorists of creating "malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorist themselves; away from the guilty."
So what keeps these "nut jobs" going? How do these independent documentaries continue to appear?
Quite simply, because they are speaking to a rather large audience. According to a Zogby poll from last May, 42 percent of Americans believe the government took part in some kind of cover up involving the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Considering the president's dramatically low job approval rating, and the previously mentioned documentary "Loose Change" having been downloaded more than 10 million times, it's clear whom the U.S. is listening to.
How, then, are we to interpret this? What cultural and political factors have led to nearly half of us believing the federal government is sponsoring acts of terrorism against its own citizens? The answers are, just as anything else in this world, incredibly complex.
And that is what has been forgotten. We have been too quick to our individual conclusions, ignoring what we know to be true: theories about 9/11 and other tragedies occur because of one, and every reason conceivable.
Are Americans who believe or make these films searching for a fantasy to escape this reality? Of course they are.
Has the government ever planned an attack against U.S. citizens in order to bolster support for a war? Yes. A 1962 proposal from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was presented to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara and President John F. Kennedy suggesting the CIA, in order to blame Cuban nationalists and initiate conflict, start "terror campaigns" in Washington D.C. and Miami.
Will conspiracy theorists ever be completely satisfied with any explanation of Sept. 11? No, but when such a large percentage of Americans believe internet banter over their government, it is needless to say we have bigger problems to worry about. Particularly the lack of faith in our elected representatives, and their blatant incompetence - factors that largely contribute to a national mood that nurtures conspiracy theories against its own government.
The late John Roberts, an Oxford historian, suggested that during periods of rapid social and economic change, it is comforting to ascribe complicated issues to hidden forces bent on disrupting the status quo. To an extent, this is completely and disturbingly true.
However, with so many Americans unsure about their government's involvement in 9/11, it is not healthy for us to ignore millions of people who believe these heavy allegations.
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
By Aaron Wolfe
http://media.www.siude.com/media/storage...3692.shtml
Americans love a good conspiracy theory. JFK, Roswell and CIA "black ops" have become a unique part of our culture, spawning countless movies and books that straddle various degrees of reality. They are the guilty pleasures of our country; dust gathering in the corner of the room that, for several reasons, we refuse to sweep.
However, there is one theory that is not so innocuous. It has become so controversial and taboo that we have created a new cliché to deal with it.
There are now three things you don't speak about at the dinner table: religion, politics and 9/11.
One can scarcely find a subject that causes more screaming matches than "direct-to-Internet" movies like "9/11 Mysteries", "Loose Change" and "Painful Deceptions". The directors of these films are occasionally spotlighted on major news networks, and often find themselves under intense scrutiny or denounced as unpatriotic fools. President Bush, himself, accused conspiracy theorists of creating "malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorist themselves; away from the guilty."
So what keeps these "nut jobs" going? How do these independent documentaries continue to appear?
Quite simply, because they are speaking to a rather large audience. According to a Zogby poll from last May, 42 percent of Americans believe the government took part in some kind of cover up involving the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Considering the president's dramatically low job approval rating, and the previously mentioned documentary "Loose Change" having been downloaded more than 10 million times, it's clear whom the U.S. is listening to.
How, then, are we to interpret this? What cultural and political factors have led to nearly half of us believing the federal government is sponsoring acts of terrorism against its own citizens? The answers are, just as anything else in this world, incredibly complex.
And that is what has been forgotten. We have been too quick to our individual conclusions, ignoring what we know to be true: theories about 9/11 and other tragedies occur because of one, and every reason conceivable.
Are Americans who believe or make these films searching for a fantasy to escape this reality? Of course they are.
Has the government ever planned an attack against U.S. citizens in order to bolster support for a war? Yes. A 1962 proposal from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was presented to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara and President John F. Kennedy suggesting the CIA, in order to blame Cuban nationalists and initiate conflict, start "terror campaigns" in Washington D.C. and Miami.
Will conspiracy theorists ever be completely satisfied with any explanation of Sept. 11? No, but when such a large percentage of Americans believe internet banter over their government, it is needless to say we have bigger problems to worry about. Particularly the lack of faith in our elected representatives, and their blatant incompetence - factors that largely contribute to a national mood that nurtures conspiracy theories against its own government.
The late John Roberts, an Oxford historian, suggested that during periods of rapid social and economic change, it is comforting to ascribe complicated issues to hidden forces bent on disrupting the status quo. To an extent, this is completely and disturbingly true.
However, with so many Americans unsure about their government's involvement in 9/11, it is not healthy for us to ignore millions of people who believe these heavy allegations.
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
08-25-2007, 11:51 AM
"Quite simply, because they are speaking to a rather large audience. According to a Zogby poll from last May, 42 percent of Americans believe the government took part in some kind of cover up involving the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001."
I'm surprised it's not more than that. I mean, you know...it's like gravity. Really...all one has to do is remove himself from the world and then look at it with new eyes. What you will find are an extremely bored, unfufilled, neurotic people looking for someone to blame for "the situation" they find themselves in. If you're an American (or amerikan, as the case may be), the likely focus of your attention is the US government (especially if you're a child of the 60s). The hyper-politicized media helps you along by using language like "coverup" when information is "classified" to protect victims, ensure legal processes are kept legal, or until a threat is eliminated. The fact that it is "classified" allows creative imaginations to run wild...and if you happen to hate "Amerika," it will be the likely victim of your scorn.
gus
I'm surprised it's not more than that. I mean, you know...it's like gravity. Really...all one has to do is remove himself from the world and then look at it with new eyes. What you will find are an extremely bored, unfufilled, neurotic people looking for someone to blame for "the situation" they find themselves in. If you're an American (or amerikan, as the case may be), the likely focus of your attention is the US government (especially if you're a child of the 60s). The hyper-politicized media helps you along by using language like "coverup" when information is "classified" to protect victims, ensure legal processes are kept legal, or until a threat is eliminated. The fact that it is "classified" allows creative imaginations to run wild...and if you happen to hate "Amerika," it will be the likely victim of your scorn.
gus