Paradise Café Discussions A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Although much has been written about this subject, and man have assumed that the "sons od God" are just the anointed or those who are given life in heaven, notice what Paul wrote about who the true sons of God are:

Galatians 3:26-29, ‘The fact is; you’re all sons of God because of your faith in the Anointed One, Jesus. All who were baptized into the Anointed One have put on the Anointed One. So, there aren’t any Jews or Greeks, slaves or freemen, males or females, because you’re all united in the Anointed One, Jesus. And if you’re [part] of the Anointed One, you’re really the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise.’

Romans 8:11-14, ‘Now, if the Breath of the One who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised the Anointed One Jesus from the dead will also make your dying bodies alive through His Breath that’s in you. So brothers, while we’re in the flesh, it’s our duty not to follow the ways of the flesh, for if we follow fleshly ways we’ll be [counted among] the dead. So, we must use [God’s] Breath to kill the practices of the body, so we can have life. For, all who are led by God’s Breath are God’s sons.

You didn’t receive His Breath to make yourselves slaves to fear again, for when you received it, it adopted you as His sons. So, it’s by this Breath that we can call out, Papa… Father! It’s the same Breath that testifies to the spirit in us that we’re God’s children. So, if we’re [His] children, we’re also [His] heirs. Yes, heirs of God and heirs with the Anointed One. However, we’ll have to suffer together so we can be glorified together.’

Then John wrote a 1 John 5:1, ‘Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Anointed One has been fathered by God.’

So, regardless of what some teach, according to Paul:
* If we have faith in Jesus, we are also God’s sons
* When we are baptized into Jesus we become the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise
* If we have God’s Breath (Spirit) we are no longer considered as being among the dead
* All who are led by God’s Breath are God’s sons.

Are there any who claim to be Christians that would deny faith in Jesus, who aren’t baptized in his name, who don’t claim to have God’s Breath, and that they are being led by God’s Breath? We would hope not.

While I appreciate that many will disagree with these conclusions, I hope you recognize that our disagreement isn't over what will happen to the faithful, but just as to the meanings of the scriptures.

The Society has taught us that the Bible was written just for a few of "the anointed" (at Bethel), but Jesus and the Apostles indicated that it was written for all Christians. And the fact that we all have the same "Spirit" from God is indicated by Jesus' words at John 6:44, 45, where it is written that he said: "Nobody can come to me unless the Father who sent me attracts him [to me] and then I will resurrect him on the last day. The Prophets wrote, They will all be taught by God. So, everyone who listens to the Father and learns comes to me."

FYI JIM,

"So, regardless of what some teach, according to Paul:
* If we have faith in Jesus, we are also God’s sons
* When we are baptized into Jesus we become the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promise
* If we have God’s Breath (Spirit) we are no longer considered as being among the dead
* All who are led by God’s Breath are God’s sons."

that is the way it sounded to me also. before I found this board/last board

1 pet. 1:19
As the apostle Paul said...the word is in no need of interpretation from any man, for no prophetic message just came from any human will, but people were under the control of the Holy Spirit as they spoke and the message came from God. There is no need for hiearchy of denominations(sects).

When the sealing occurs, sealed believers will no longer need spiritual instruction as how to live: because they will instinctively already know right from wrong, and God says in Jer. 31:31-33 ....."I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

also the truth speaks, Ez. 36:26-27

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

This is why there is a global awakening of the Holy Spirit that is teaching us. Its like we all just snapped out of the dead trance(heart of stone) we were in, and just know by instinct what is true and what is false because Jehovah has put this into our heart, and we just feel in our hearts what is right and what speaks truth. We now have been given our freedom restored and now we can see things clear with unveiled faces, and are starting to be transformed into God's glory which will ever increase, and since it is increasing in us, we are being more bold and outspoken. Not like Moses, with a veil on his face hiding his glory. (2 cor. 3:16-18 )

New Heart

Newheart I don't understand?

Dear JWHVACR,

This is a very good topic. But I think the question should rather comes down to, “What is a Christian?” Because by the scriptures that you have cited it seems obvious that the terms “sons of God” and “Christian” are synonymous. Are they not?

As Paul brings out these ones are “baptized into the Anointed One (Christ)”. What does this mean? Perhaps Paul himself answers in Romans 6:3 where he says, “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” – NKJV

This ties in with what he says at Romans chapter 8, where he says in part, “So brothers, while we’re in the flesh…” This seems to imply that the time will come when these will no longer be “in the flesh.”

Does that mean that all these “Sons of God” are “anointed"? Romans 8 would lead me to think so - “..the spirit in us…”.

Again the Society has cleverly mislead it’s followers into thinking the so-called “anointed” are only those “few …(at Bethel)…” This would suit their purposes quite well (“everyone needs to follow us!”) were it true! However the scriptures indicate that there are in fact “MANY called” (Mat 22:14; 20:16).

It is interesting that before the time of Christ, of all humans, only Adam had the recognition as a “son of God”. Even Abraham, who was quite a decent person (understatement), was only recognized as “God’s friend” (James 2:23). It was not until Jesus came that the opportunity to become “Son’s of God” was first offered to the fleshly Jews (John 1:12).

I believe that in the future when mankind is brought back to perfection, they will then be considered “God’s sons”. But for now, it is reserved for those who are “baptized into Christ.” Or, as the “Witnesses” call them, “anointed.”

These are my thoughts,

John

Good thoughts John, and I'm certainly not going to be dogmatic on the issue, since I too am still searching and knocking and asking. But John's words at 1 John 5:1 (‘Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Anointed One has been fathered by God.’), seems to indicate that more than just "the anointed" are God's sons.

I guess the question is: "What does it mean to be baptized into Jesus' death?"

Certainly, not everyone who Paul was addressing could have received some special other sort of baptism, so he was either discussing common baptism, or he was saying that some among them would share in Jesus' death by dying a martyr's death, qualifying them as "the anointed."

I know the Society has taught that all 1st Century Christians were specially anointed and were going to heaven, but Paul indicated that he was reaching out for a better resurrection, which seems to indicate that not all were truly anointed as such back then.

Also notice the first part of Galatians 3:26-29, which says, "The fact is; you’re all sons of God because of your faith in the Anointed One, Jesus." So it appears as though Paul was saying that the requirement for becoming a "son of God" is just showing true faith in Jesus.

And aren't we all then the seed of Abraham? Romans 4 discusses this, and indicates that the seed of Abraham (in verse 13) will inherit the promise. Yet at Matthew 5:5 Jesus speaks of us receiving the inheritance of the earth, and at Matthew 25:34 he said that the "sheep" would "inherit the Kingdom that’s been prepared for you from the founding of the world."

Our common problem is that we are trying to remove dogma that has been deeply ingrained in us, and it's difficult to start over with an objective (either pro or con) viewpoint.

Great post JWHVACR
The sealing of Christians the sons of God began at Pentecost 33 C.E. This was an event related to the gifts of the spirit that would pass away after those who had the gift died. Yes, the miraculous gift would die with them. If these gifted ones were gone then the laying on of hands could not take place therefor the gift died.

The full limit of the appointed times will come and when it does anointed Christians or sons of God will find out if they will experience a second anointing. This could be manifested by the miraculous phisical sign/gifts of the spirit as it was in the first century, a miraculous manifestation.

Only those anointed ones who stay awake as to the invitation to the marriage of the lamb and who keeping themselves free of Babylon the great will experience the second anointing and sealing. This will become the revealing of the sons of God, a revealing by the miraculous gifts of the spirit. This will happen after the last trumpet and the resurrection of the faithful anointed to heaven and that has not happened yet. When it does we will know about it. So exiting times are ahead of us so keep awake and keep on your spiritual garment

Anointed Christians become sons of God when they are anointed by miraculous gifts of the spirit.

10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed time, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him, 11 in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels Eph 1:10,11

16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 1 Ths 4:16

11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been. Rev 6 : 11

25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, Rom 11:25

7 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads. Rev 7 : 1,3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time. 6 In this fact YOU are greatly rejoicing, though for a little while at present, if it must be, YOU have been grieved by various trials, 7 in order that the tested quality of YOUR faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being proved by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Though YOU never saw him, YOU love him. Though YOU are not looking upon him at present, yet YOU exercise faith in him and are greatly rejoicing with an unspeakable and glorified joy, 9 as YOU receive the end of YOUR faith, the salvation of YOUR souls.

My brothers; let me share a personal opinion (and please recognize it as just that):

I think that there are a limited number of faithful Christians who have qualified as christs (or "the anointed") by having to lay down their lives for the faith, as did Jesus (the Christ or Anointed). I gather this from the words of Revelation 20:4, which says: "Next, I saw thrones. And those who sat down on them were the ones who were executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years."

I also believe that these are "the Bride of the Lamb," for Revelation 19:7, 8 says, "Let’s rejoice, shout in joy, and glorify Him, because it’s time for the Lamb’s wedding! His bride has prepared herself, and she was found worthy to be dressed in bright, clean, fine linen. This fine linen represents the righteous actions of the Holy Ones."

Yet, I believe that those found faithful who haven't paid the ultimate price by being horribly persecuted and/or dying for their faith, have another great and wonderful hope in store for them; being invited to the Lamb's wedding banquet. For Revelation 19:9 says: "Then he told me, ‘Write this: Those who are invited to the Lamb’s wedding banquet are blest.’ And he added, ‘God really said this.’"

Who then are invited as guests to the Lamb's wedding banquet (remember that the bride isn't just an invited guest)? Jesus told us at Matthew 25:1-13, in his parable of the ten virgins, and the following parable of the faithful and unfaithful slaves. They are those Christians who stay awake, don't run of of spiritual "oil," watch out for the Lord's "coins," and care for the needs of his household. But, while they too are found faithful, they are only invited guests, not the bride.

Remember that in an ancient Jewish wedding, the taking of the bride from the home of her parents was the conclusion of the marriage, and this was followed by going to a banquet to celebrate this joyous occasion along with their friends. And in this case, the friends are faithful spiritual virgins.

So, it is my opinion that; unless we are selected to be put to death for our faith in Jesus, we are not the anointed (who may only number 144,000). Yet, if we remain faithful, we are numbered among "the living" in the eyes of God (Revelation 2:10, ‘Be faithful to the death and I’ll give you the crown of life.’), and will enter into the joy of our Master (or Lord) by being appointed over cities. And this is the reward of most of the Christians to whom Paul was writing. Yet, Paul indicated that he was reaching out for a greater resurrection, which he obviously received, because he was executed for his faith.

But, what about the Apostle John? Well, remember that at almost 100-years-old, he was writing from a dungeon on Patmos.

And how does all this tie into the stated mission of this area of posting? I believe that they are all under the New Covenant, but only those chosen as the Anointed receive the benefits of (and pay the price for) coming under Jesus' "Agreement for a Kingdom."

That's my 2-cents worth and my current opinion.

Hey Jim,

I think that it is all good.. we will be rewarded for what we as an individual are willing to do. Paul was willing to Die!

But why? Was it just so he could attain a better calling??

I seriously doubt it....

Hi TD,

I sure don't know all the answers, but by the time he did his writing, surely he had already paid his full fare. And in some of his writings he indicated that others had also. Those were tough times.

Perhaps 2 Corinthians 4:10, 11 gives us the answer: "And we always bear the death of Jesus’ body, so that the life of Jesus can show in our bodies. For, we who are alive are always being handed over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus can be seen in our dying flesh."

Ah, here it is...

Philippians 3:9-14: "It’s the type of righteousness that God gives for faith, and this helps us to know [Jesus] and the power of his resurrection… and to share in his sufferings… and for me to resign myself to a death like his, so I can somehow be found worthy of an upward resurrection from the dead. [I’m not saying] that I’ve made it yet or that I’m already perfect, just that I’m chasing after it… I’m trying to grab hold of that for which the Anointed One Jesus grabbed hold of me. Brothers, I don’t think of myself as having achieved it, but I am doing this one thing: [I’m] forgetting the things in the past and stretching out to reach for the things that are ahead. I’m running toward the goal, the prize of the upward calling from God, through the Anointed One Jesus.[/b]"

Colossians 2:12, 13: "You were all buried with him when [you were] baptized, and you were all raised together by faith in what God (who raised him from the dead) has done in you. For, that’s when you died to your errors and to the uncircumcised state of your flesh, and when you became alive with him. Then he kindly forgave all our errors."

Think I tiptoed around this on another subject, but it is important.

Artcritic, thank goodness music does not come with your pictures.
"what will you bring.....Jehovah's kingdom..........di da da da da......and bring what else..... di da da da.......

Love the Vick


Oops................nasty thieving gardener just turned up.

I love this one Jim,

"You were all buried with him when [you were] baptized, and you were all raised together by faith in what God (who raised him from the dead) has done in you. For, that’s when you died to your errors and to the uncircumcised state of your flesh, and when you became alive with him. Then he kindly forgave all our errors."

in my opionion.. Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like this to me.

you were all buried , you were all raised, when you died to your errors , you became alive with him " sounds like salvation thru resurection "

But he was talking to living people about their baptism, and saying that when we are baptized we are baptized into Jesus' death. For, baptism is a sign that we are dying to former ways, and when we come up from this potential death-like state (possible drowning), we become among "the living" with Jesus.

Hey Jim reread your comment, 2 living seems to make a dead. double negative is my point. How could Jesus save us from death if we are alive? We were in a state of death before the mystery was revealed "Jesus" now those who except him and put faith in him are ALIVE.. believe it...