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I thought everyone would find this interesting. I sent a letter to Raymond Franz to ask him straight out if the WTBTS was in things for the money. To my shock I actually got a response. Here it is.

Dear Raymond,

Thank you for your letter. As of May 8 I am 85 and in the year 2000 I suffered what was diagnosed as a moderate stroke, no paralysis resulted but it left me tired and with a reduced energy level. So I am not able to keep up with correspondence as I would like. Crisis of Conscience is now in 14 languages, which brings in more mail. My wife’s health has undergone some serious problems as well, requiring the giving of time in that direction. Cynthia underwent a heart catheterization process which revealed six blockages in her heart. The doctors wanted to do bypass surgery but she opted not to do so. On September 10, 2004, I underwent a surgical operation on my left carotid artery (one of the main arteries supplying blood to the brain). It took an hour and a half and I was conscious during the operation since only a local anesthesia was applied. The surgeon made about a 5-inch incision in the neck and then opened the artery and cleared out the blockage in it. My right carotid artery became totally blocked causing the stroke in the year 2000 and thus it was important to keep the left open and free of blockage. I only had to spend one night in the hospital, for which I was grateful. The popular use of the term "golden years" certainly does not describe what older age really brings. Ecclesiastes Chapter 12 gives a realistic picture.

Many who write have expressed recognition that bitterness and anger only take away credibility from any discussion of the Witnesses. Unfortunately a large portion of the books and material put out by “ex-JW” sources on the subject are almost entirely negative. A man from England recently wrote:


I'm currently an "active" Witness from England, and I just wanted to say how absolutely relieved I was to read your books ("Crisis of Conscience" and "In Search Of Christian Freedom"). I must confess, reading them was nothing like I expected. My only contact with ex-jw's has been through browsing the net, and to be honest, a lot of what's written doesn't merit much by way of consideration. A lot of sites are so absolutely blinded by bitterness, that even the truth they do provide is soured and unpalatable.


I can sympathize with the adjustment you and others face. One invests so much as regards relationships and the seemingly unavoidable loss of many of these is painful. As you evidently recognize, simply withdrawing from a system that one has found to be seriously flawed is not a solution in itself. It is what one does thereafter that determines whether there has been progress and benefit or not. It is also true that any transition—even if only one in outlook—can require not only time but also mental and emotional adjustments. Haste is obviously not advisable as it often only leads to new problems or to new errors. There is always need to exercise patience, trusting in God’s help and direction.—Proverbs 19:2.

It seems, however, that we can often learn as much from the “unpleasant” experiences of life as we can from the pleasurable ones—perhaps more that is of lasting value. While separation from a large organization and former associates unquestionably produces a degree of loneliness, even that can have its beneficial aspects. It can bring home to us more than ever before the need for full reliance on our heavenly Father, that only in Him have we genuine security and the confidence of his care. It is no longer a case of flowing along with the stream but of developing a personal inner strength, gained through faith, of growing up so as to no longer be children but grown men and women, a growth achieved through our growth in love for God’s Son and the way of life he exemplified. (Ephesians 4:13-16) I don’t view my past experience as all loss, nor feel that I learned nothing from it. I find great comfort in the words of Paul at Romans 8:28 (the New World Translation changes the meaning of this text by inserting the word “his” in the expression “all his works” but this is not the way the original Greek text reads). According to a number of translations, Paul states:
>

> We know that by turning everything to their good God cooperates with all
> those who love him.—Jerusalem Bible translation.


Not just in “his works” but in “all things” or in “everything” God is able to turn any circumstance—however painful or, in some cases, even tragic—to the good of those who love him. At the time we may well find this difficult to believe but if we turn to him in full faith and allow him to do so, he can and will cause that to be the result. He can make us the better person for having had the experience, enrich us in spite of the sorrow we may undergo. Time will demonstrate this to be so and that hope can give us courage to continue on, trusting in his love.

You will find that many of what are called “ex-JW ministries, ” have often simply exchanged their previous beliefs for what is known as “orthodoxy.” Orthodoxy undoubtedly contains its measure of what is sound. But it also contains elements that are the result of imposition of religious authority, rather than belief clearly set forth in Scripture. It is difficult, for example, to find any reputable reference work that does not acknowledge the post-Biblical origin of the trinity doctrine. I feel that the main problem with the trinity doctrine is the dogmatism and judgmentalism that customarily accompanies it. That to me is but another evidence of the fragility of its foundation. Were it clearly taught in Scripture, there would be no need for authoritarian imposition of the teaching and heavy pressure to submit to it.

So many former Witnesses are at a disadvantage when pressured by others to conform to views these have adopted. Dogmatic assertions from sources that claim to base their arguments on knowledge of Biblical Greek often awe former Witnesses—even as they were previously awed by claims of a similar nature from the Watch Tower organization. So many points could be clarified if people were simply to read the same text in a variety of translations. They would then at least see that where translation is concerned, dogmatism is greater evidence of ignorance than of learning. I find this to be the case with many who adopt the Trinity doctrine.

Paul stressed that knowledge has merit only when it is expressive of, and productive of, love, that while knowledge often puffs up, love builds up. Human language, remarkable though it is, is limited to expressing what relates to the human sphere. It could never adequately be used to describe in detail and fullness things of the spirit realm, such as the exact nature of God, the process whereby He could beget a Son, the relationship resulting from such begettal, and similar matters. At the very least, it would take the language of angels, themselves spirit persons, to do this. Yet Paul says, “If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”—1 Corinthians 8:1; 13:1-3.

When I listen to some harp on a particular doctrine which professes to express in specific terms things which the Scriptures state in general terms, to set out explicitly things on which the Scriptures are not explicit, and define what the Scriptures leave undefined, I ask myself how much love this shows, what loving benefit they think results from this, how it could possibly be of comparable benefit to discussing something that is presented straightforwardly and unambiguously in Scripture and the appreciation of which would have real meaning and benefit in the person’s life. I’m afraid much of what many hear carries echoes of the noisy gong and clashing cymbal.

It reminds me of a statement found in the book The Myth of Certainty, in which university professor Daniel Taylor writes:


> The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is self-preservation.
> Preserving the faith is central to God’s plan for human history; preserving
> particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the
> institutions to be sensitive to the difference. God needs no particular
> person, church, denomination, creed or organization to accomplish his purpose.
> He will make use of those, in all their diversity, who are ready to be used,
> but will leave to themselves those who labor for their own ends.
>
> Nonetheless, questioning the institutions is synonymous, for many, with
> attacking God—something not long to be tolerated. Supposedly they are
> protecting God . . . Actually, they are protecting themselves, their view of
> the world, and their sense of security. The religious institution has given
> them meaning, a sense of purpose, and, in some cases, careers. Anyone
> perceived as a threat to these things is a threat indeed.
>
> This threat is often met, or suppressed even before it arises, with power. . .
> . Institutions express their power most clearly by enunciating, interpreting
> and enforcing the rules of the subculture.


Having seen the truth of this in the Witness religion and its organization and creed, we should not nearsightedly fail to realize how equally true it is in the larger religious field.

As regards association and fellowship, I recognize the dilemma some face. But I do feel that as time goes on one can find others whose association and companionship can be healthful and upbuilding, whether among former Witnesses or others. In one’s daily course of life one meets a variety of people and over a period of time may find at least some whose association is healthful and upbuilding. We get together with others for Bible discussion and though our group is quite small we find it satisfying. Naturally there is a certain benefit to similarity of background, but it doesn’t seem as if this should be a major goal. I personally have no interest in affiliating with a denomination. Some have expressed that most denominations have more in common than the points on which they disagree, which has some truth in it. Yet they still prefer to remain as separate denominations and affiliation with any of them does have at least some divisive effect, since one is expected to uphold and favor the growth and distinctive teachings of the denomination involved.

In a recent letter from Canada a brother writes:


>> I have started witnessing informally to people who have Bible questions or
>> when I see it is an appropriate time to witness. I offer a free discussion
>> on the Bible, its theme concerning Jesus and the Kingdom, the main divisions and
>> how to study it to profit personally. No obligations, no church, no
>> religion, just a Bible discussion. I do not associate with any group and do not feel
>> the need to really. I also do not give personal opinions wherever the
>> Scriptures are not clear or are a decision of conscience. However, I do feel
>> the need to let folks know that the Bible's way is the only way to live and
>> freedom, true freedom, comes through knowing Jesus Christ. On occasion I see
>> myself saying things that must be verified for the correct understanding, but
>> I at least feel I know the basics to help someone profit from a personal
>> study of the Bible. It takes a long time to get out of the woods, and I sometimes
>> ask myself if total eradication of WT influence is possible. When it has
>> been a part of your adult life for so long, you still find yourself thinking a
>> certain way and then realize it is learned thoughts, not logically thought
>> out sometimes. There are some things you want to hold on to of course, but their
>> programming gets in the way more often than you would like to believe.


On the Watch Tower Society’s finances, very little actual data on this surfaced in Governing Body discussions. When I was there, Grant Suiter was the Secretary-Treasurer and he seemed to view that field of matters as very much his personal domain. Nathan Knorr, of course, as President had access to all the records. Those Governing Body members who were members of the Publishing Committee were more likely to have received expanded information, since that committee had the purchasing of properties and financing of buildings within its agenda. . On the whole the financial operation was evidently quite straightforward. Funds were kept in the larger banks of New York, and a considerable amount in stocks and bonds

As for interest in money, although not as blatant in this regard as some religions, the organization certainly welcomes money and protects its financial interests in all it does. . While the organization loans money for building Kingdom Halls, it then takes ownership of the halls. It asks the congregations to pay for insurance but when, as happened in Florida a year or so ago, there is some disaster, instead of sending money to cover repairs on Kingdom Halls it calls on neighboring congregations to share the burden with the affected congregations. What I do not see is evidence of any individual is personally enriching himself in a direct way. I saw no evidence of this while on the Governing Body for 9 years. This is not to say that there is no financial benefit to those in prominent position. But the benefit comes from persons who, because of that prominence, make money gifts or other gifts to them. (Perhaps like those Jude speaks of, in his epistle, who “flatter people to their own advantage.”) The Governing Body members live a carefree life financially and economically as compared to the great majority of the Witnesses worldwide. I personally believe this produces a certain insensitivity to the struggles many ordinary people endure.

You wrote:



You also mention in Jeremiah films that there were some things that you were ashamed to take a part of. Could you without going into to much detail as to what they were? If not I understand.


I am not sure to what you refer by “Jeremiah films”. If you have not read the sequel to Crisis of Conscience, the book titled In Search of Christian Freedom, you may obtain fuller information.

I hope that things may go well for you and wish you God’s guidance, comfort and strength as you face up to life's problems.

Sincerely,

Ray
Thank you 'Knightlock' for sharing this with us. I feel such love for Ray Franz, just as I love anyone who obviously has such a love for our God and His Son. I seriously wish I could meet him - though through his words he does let us know him, the inner man and lover of God.

What were you referring to when you wrote of 'Jeremiah films'?

'Money' does not seem to be the motivator... might I suggest 'power'?

Thanks again - I loved reading this.
:friends:Love to all,
Willa

Willa Wrote:
Thank you 'Knightlock' for sharing this with us. I feel such love for Ray Franz, just as I love anyone who obviously has such a love for our God and His Son. I seriously wish I could meet him - though through his words he does let us know him, the inner man and lover of God.

What were you referring to when you wrote of 'Jeremiah films'?

'Money' does not seem to be the motivator... might I suggest 'power'?

Thanks again - I loved reading this.
:friends:Love to all,
Willa



Well there is some evidence that money is involved because he wrote the following this way...

What I do not see is evidence of any individual is personally enriching himself in a direct way

That is how the letter was written indicating that there was some interest in money.

Jerimiah films had a film called 'Witnesses of Jehovah' that you can see on Google.com video. He said in it that there were things he was ashamed of that he took part of as a member of the GB.

Here is the film.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...&plindex=6

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
Fantastic, Knightlock! Ray Franz is a humble man...and I will always listen to a humble person before anyone else.


I doubt if Franz even knew he was being quoted in Jeremiah Films. My thoughts are that Ray may have felt badly about the Society's prohibitions on blood and other things over the years that have resulted in the loss of life and the decimation of families. That is, the things that are not clearly delineated in scripture.

Personally, I came to a similar conclusion years ago. The Society is one of the things standing in a place where it should not...in the hearts of men and women, between them and Jesus Christ. If that is not a "disgusting thing," I don't know what is.

7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2, NWT)

No one at Brooklyn has done this...only Jesus. Jesus has been exalted to a superior position, not the "governing" body. Ray, I think, realizes this.

gus

knightlock Wrote:
I am not sure to what you refer by “Jeremiah films”. If you have not read the sequel to Crisis of Conscience, the book titled In Search of Christian Freedom, you may obtain fuller information.

I hope that things may go well for you and wish you God’s guidance, comfort and strength as you face up to life's problems.

Sincerely,

Ray

In my reading of CoC, much of Ray's consternation appears to be his inability to act while other GB members made decisions without knowing sufficient scriptural application or the people those decisions might adversely affect. Majority might rule, but he that goes against the more powerful will eventually be targeted and forced to leave. In my mind, that's what happened to Ray. It's what happens in all hierarchies. Anyone who has served as an elder for any length of time should know this.

As for the Jeremiah thing, I also saw Ray depicted on “Jehovah’s Witnesses Exposed.” It seemed to me so out of character for him to even appear on the documentary since he emphasized so strongly that he holds no malice toward the organization as a whole. And had he the opportunity to review the film, I doubt he would have agreed as to the context of his statements being so misplaced.

Being in public relations you are often asked to appear on some “talk show” or documentary. Unless the ground rules are clearly defined, it is often inadvisable to go onto these programs. Why? Because I have seen moderators change the questions and attack a position they originally feigned to support, grandstanding for their own publicity.

So is the case of any such interview. I also find that some who are quoted change their mind later to say, “I didn’t mean what I said.” Particularly when such is held up as a scholar or other authority, the media plays with these pretty fast and loose. While pretending to have the “truth” in perspective, they are actually playing games for their own benefit. Which all goes to tell you—believe nothing you hear and only half you see until your gut tells you different.

sw

knightlock Wrote:
...Funds were kept in the larger banks of New York, and a considerable amount in stocks and bonds...


I believe that he is correct about this. I heard (from what I consider a very reliable source in Brooklyn), about 5 years ago, that the Society was the “largest client of the Chase Manhattan Bank”; having in excess of $3-billion dollars deposited there.

I believe the ones growing fat, and are REALLY in control of things there, are possibly the rich banking firms, other cooperations, and maybe the WT shareholders themselves (whoever they are).

John Wrote:

knightlock Wrote:
...Funds were kept in the larger banks of New York, and a considerable amount in stocks and bonds...


I believe that he is correct about this. I heard (from what I consider a very reliable source in Brooklyn), about 5 years ago, that the Society was the “largest client of the Chase Manhattan Bank”; having in excess of $3-billion dollars deposited there.

I believe the ones growing fat, and are REALLY in control of things there, are possibly the rich banking firms, other cooperations, and maybe the WT shareholders themselves (whoever they are).


Let's just take that three billion dollars as a "for example." OK, John? If the money manager(s) at WTB&TS did nothing more creative than deposit it in a money-market account (virtually non-existent risk; and, 100% accessibility) at 5% (today's going rate), ... they would pull down a cool $150 million per annum -- just in interest on that one class of assets. :shocked:

Not bad for a bunch of "hired men," huh? :rant:

isomam Wrote:

John Wrote:

knightlock Wrote:
...Funds were kept in the larger banks of New York, and a considerable amount in stocks and bonds...


I believe that he is correct about this. I heard (from what I consider a very reliable source in Brooklyn), about 5 years ago, that the Society was the “largest client of the Chase Manhattan Bank”; having in excess of $3-billion dollars deposited there.

I believe the ones growing fat, and are REALLY in control of things there, are possibly the rich banking firms, other cooperations, and maybe the WT shareholders themselves (whoever they are).


Let's just take that three billion dollars as a "for example." OK, John? If the money manager(s) at WTB&TS did nothing more creative than deposit it in a money-market account (virtually non-existent risk; and, 100% accessibility) at 5% (today's going rate), ... they would pull down a cool $150 million per annum -- just in interest on that one class of assets. :shocked:

Not bad for a bunch of "hired men," huh? :rant:


Ray wrote the same exact intro to me all before the part where he gets to what you wrote him heh

smoldering wick Wrote:
So is the case of any such interview. I also find that some who are quoted change their mind later to say, “I didn’t mean what I said.” Particularly when such is held up as a scholar or other authority, the media plays with these pretty fast and loose. While pretending to have the “truth” in perspective, they are actually playing games for their own benefit. Which all goes to tell you—believe nothing you hear and only half you see until your gut tells you different.

sw


Well said, Wick. I can imagine a filmed interview with Ray Franz taking hours to complete...and then editing it down to a few minutes of "the finer points" of the editor's agenda. The clips were kind of un-Ray-like. The entire video made me feel a little uneasy; but the watchtower did provide the ammunition for it. 1986 wasn't that long after the great schism in Brooklyn...but it was 20 years ago. I would hope that the friends have moved on since.

gus

gus Wrote:

smoldering wick Wrote:
So is the case of any such interview. I also find that some who are quoted change their mind later to say, “I didn’t mean what I said.” Particularly when such is held up as a scholar or other authority, the media plays with these pretty fast and loose. While pretending to have the “truth” in perspective, they are actually playing games for their own benefit. Which all goes to tell you—believe nothing you hear and only half you see until your gut tells you different.

sw


Well said, Wick. I can imagine a filmed interview with Ray Franz taking hours to complete...and then editing it down to a few minutes of "the finer points" of the editor's agenda. The clips were kind of un-Ray-like. The entire video made me feel a little uneasy; but the watchtower did provide the ammunition for it. 1986 wasn't that long after the great schism in Brooklyn...but it was 20 years ago. I would hope that the friends have moved on since.

gus

Exactly, gus,

I've had discussions like this before. Talk about beating a dead horse. Enough that we kill the argument, if we go on to reduce its remains to dust, something weird happens ... everyone now suspects WE have something to hide. This is why ex-JW's lose in the end. They just can't give the dead horse a proper burial.

And what happens when we keep beating the dead horse? It miraculously returns to life in its martyred state. That's because everyone wants to save it for no other reason that it's now the underdog. No rhyme or reason to that, is there bro?

sw

Here is a scan of a letter sent to Ray.



Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
Excellent!:thumbsup: Liked the letter and the video!

smoldering wick Wrote:
Exactly, gus,

I've had discussions like this before. Talk about beating a dead horse. Enough that we kill the argument, if we go on to reduce its remains to dust, something weird happens ... everyone now suspects WE have something to hide. This is why ex-JW's lose in the end. They just can't give the dead horse a proper burial.

And what happens when we keep beating the dead horse? It miraculously returns to life in its martyred state. That's because everyone wants to save it for no other reason that it's now the underdog. No rhyme or reason to that, is there bro?

sw


Nada. If it weren't for the internet, I wonder how many days would pass between thoughts of watchtower history or Ray Franz. I'm more concerned about the man's health than I am about his 1986 thoughts on the GB. Jesus freed us from, not just the watchtower society; but freed us from being psychologically dominated. Exchanging one obsession for another doesn't really define "progress." I know I have a long way to go. One day, perhaps, I will sensitize myself to this kind of thing to the extent necessary to avoid it altogether. Just...need...to...trust...my...gut...feelings...ugh!


gus



p.s. I don't see any scan.

smoldering wick Wrote:

gus Wrote:

smoldering wick Wrote:
So is the case of any such interview. I also find that some who are quoted change their mind later to say, “I didn’t mean what I said.” Particularly when such is held up as a scholar or other authority, the media plays with these pretty fast and loose. While pretending to have the “truth” in perspective, they are actually playing games for their own benefit. Which all goes to tell you—believe nothing you hear and only half you see until your gut tells you different.

sw


Well said, Wick. I can imagine a filmed interview with Ray Franz taking hours to complete...and then editing it down to a few minutes of "the finer points" of the editor's agenda. The clips were kind of un-Ray-like. The entire video made me feel a little uneasy; but the watchtower did provide the ammunition for it. 1986 wasn't that long after the great schism in Brooklyn...but it was 20 years ago. I would hope that the friends have moved on since.

gus

Exactly, gus,

I've had discussions like this before. Talk about beating a dead horse. Enough that we kill the argument, if we go on to reduce its remains to dust, something weird happens ... everyone now suspects WE have something to hide. This is why ex-JW's lose in the end. They just can't give the dead horse a proper burial.

And what happens when we keep beating the dead horse? It miraculously returns to life in its martyred state. That's because everyone wants to save it for no other reason that it's now the underdog. No rhyme or reason to that, is there bro?

sw



Don't get me wrong I understand what you are saying and if I were in your place I would feel the same way so please don't take what I am about to say the wrong way...

The problem is that this is dead horse to you. I am not saying that if you have heard these things over and over again, that it would not get annoying. But you have to understand that this is not a dead horse to me or anyone else just comming out of the WTBTS. The fact is that I did not know any of this until around April of this year so it is all new to me.

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