Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Who are the two witnesses, preaching in sackcloth, during the time of the end. Is this literal or symbolic?:thinking:

The Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testament. For a long time God's Word was lightly esteemed. The transition from a poor understanding to a better understanding of it came on gradually. The Two Witnesses of God, the Old and the New Testaments, long clothed in the sackcloth of the dead languages gradually ascended to heaven, the place of honor and power, as the scriptures symbolically represented the matter.

:coffeeread:

Hello Angel..

Someone, recently, said the 2 witnesses were, Jesus and the Bride class.. That is the best idea, I've heard.. And yes, their death is a symbolic death, where they feel defeated.. not actually dead.

(southern...again...)

Well, to begin, at the beginning, as they say...oft' when the wind blows from the east, as it has been so noted, not by a few, might I add, that some persons may, well, shall we say, find that their "faculties" have been, to one degree, or the other (there are, I am sure, many dependent factors in such a calculation...), shall we say, "affected" by some unknown, scatterred, micro-biotic matter, having been driven to the mainlands by the aforementioned 'easterly' winds from the sea....

Now then.  The Two Witnessess.

I shall list that which I (not only "I', as in the singular, but also as in "others") percieve may be a most intreging possibility as to the general relevance of the chapter in question, as they say, to the question at hand:

Attend:

Rev 11:3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

1.  Future event
2. They preform the real preaching work
3. A spirit filled group of people that will have a worldwide audience
4. They will tell the world what is about to occur, and the choices that lay ahead for each individual
5.  It will be a message of doom, and yet of hope (for some)
6.  They will be hated by most
7. They will be martyred
8.  The Devil will see the first ressurection


Now then.

As to the detail, nay I say, I certainly have not, nor do I, or have I, ever laid claim upon, any particular "seeing", as it were, to the actual, shall we say, symbolic "nature" of said scripture, either here, or anywhere else.

I calculate my work here is done, therefore, good day to you all!



Prop-"now aint that a Daisy"-Min





  

Prop, my dear, you are beginning to sound like a cross between Samuel Langhorne Clemens and Jane Austen. Priceless. :D

I think I got the gist of it. Makes sense, bro. Time will tell.

smiles and hugs
Naomi

Naomi were you really on here posting at 5.07am????
hugs sis:hug:
xx

I really enjoy reading all the various ideas ppl come up with on here, most being quite convinced in themselves of what they think, and i have deep respect for that, don`t get me wrong.
It`s different for me, maybe i`m blase` or maybe i`m simple of thought, by that i don`t mean a total idiot, tho some might argue that point! lol!

I just feel and i know i`ve said this before, that God has matters in hand, so do i need to trouble my overtaxed brain to figure it all out? (as if i could anyway).
So.... i`ll just leave Him to sort out this mess that Satan and we, (mankind) have made of everything, and continue my struggle to just get thru each day one at a time without taxing the grey matter too much! lol!

I`m a "bear of very little brain" and a short attention span but i love you all and enjoy reading what you have researched. (i`d never be able to discipline myself enough) gosh 5 meetings a week used to kill me!

Big hugs all round, take care
Love dissnchntd1 :grouphug:

Nope :crazyeyes: I was definitely still in the land of nod!
hugs to you too :hug::friends::drinking:

Hello everyone :):)
Today on Ewatchman I read that he feels the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses.:dontknow:
Dont know if anyone here has heard of Ron Weinland or not. Recently I have read 2 books of his. He claims that he is one of the two witnesses, but doent know yet who the other one is, but he claims to be the spokeman for both.:confused::shocked::huh: He also claims that Hubert Armstrong was the modern day Eziekel before he died.:confused::confused:
:hibye:

I wonder what he was smoking when he came to that conclusion?
sorry just the way my mind works. lol :D

hugs dissnchntd1

Oh I forget to tell you and mr Weinland. My bad. I'm the second witness.:supersmiley::flyinghigh::priest:

The Two Witnesses and the Inner Sanctum
Let us do a step by step through Revelation chapter 11, and see what we can unearth. I am quoting the NWT, not because I like it, but for ease, though I will be checking the accuracy in the Greek

11 verse one:- And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.”

The word (naos), translated here as temple, is not the edifice or building but refers to the dwelling of God, the inner part of the temple, the shrine where the image of a god was kept.
So the size of the of the " inner sanctum" was measured and thus established and made finite.
On the other hand the courtyard was to be cast out of the measuring, and the holy city was to be trampled  for 42 months.
This, in the NWT, is cross referenced to Luke 21:24 stating that Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations. The holy city  is Jerusalem, and according to scripture the trampling is not for seven times (or 7 multiplied by 360, to turn it into a "day for a year") but 42 months, which is three and a half years.

The two witnesses prophesy also for the same amount of time.
1,260 days is also three and a half years. The fact that the two different ways of saying three and a half years, are placed one after the other, suggests to me that this is the the same time period.
So I suspect that the trampling of the holy city, the trampling of Jerusalem, and the prophesying of the two witnesses are part of the same three and a half year period.

An interesting point is that the altar is included in the measuring but the basin for cleansing is not.
In Revelation 6:9, the souls that have been slaughtered are waiting under the altar. I think these are the ones who are included in the measuring along with the naos.

When a cleansed New Jerusalem, the holy city reappears in Revelation 21, it too is measured, see verse 15.
The basin which did not get measured, (glassy sea mingled with fire) appears in Revelation 15:2 with victorious ones standing next to it. (I suspect this means they have now been cleansed).

Chuck, I thought the two witnesses were Watchtower's Legal Department, :readthis:
and, their Service/Writing Department. :readthis:

:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Perhaps is might be noteworthy ...:love: what the two witnesses are ABLE TO DO during their 3 1/2 years preaching period ...

Rev. 11:5-6 ...

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire issues forth from their mouths and devours their enemies; and if anyone should want to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. 6 These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.


Didn't Elijah have the 'power' to shut up the heavens from rain ...?
Didn't Moses have the 'power' of the ten plagues ...?

Of course it wasn't THEIR power ... but JEHOVAH'S ... he was just using them ...:love:

It SEEMS (as Revelation still has a way to go to being fulfilled I am NOT dogmatic on any point):giverose: that these TWO WITNESSES resemble more like what the 'old prophets' were like to me ...

Since they are preaching in 'sackcloth and ashes' ... it seems to suggest that their could be perhaps TWO-FOLD ...

1. That they are REPENTANT over past conduct ...?
2. That they are also preaching a JUDGMENT message ...?

An interesting piece of Scripture I have been reading ... not really sure if there is a 'connection' or not ... but Jesus DID say ... just like the days of Noah ...

But I have been trying to read the account of Noah over again with 'new' eyes hopefully ... one thing jumped out at me this time was the REPETITIVENESS of Jehovah telling Noah that the animals must go in TWO BY TWO ... hmmm

Also, when Jesus gave the illustration of TWO in field ... one taken and one not ...

And of course the transfiguration of Christ when Moses and Elijah were with him ... again TWO ...

Now back to Revelation ... sorry for the meandering stroll ... :redface:

It also seems to indicate that these TWO WITNESSES would have SUPERNATURAL POWER ... controlling the ELEMENTS ... and being DIVINELY PROTECTED as well ...

So, IMHO these 'two witnesses' ... be they two literal people (as some suggest Moses and Elijah themselves) or a 'group' ... whichever it turns out to be it will be a GLORIOUS and FAITH STRENGTHENING time ... and a time for THEM to bring the most awesomest shout of praise to our God Jehovah ...

As to them being 'books' ... I'm not so sure of that my br. RR144 ...

For a wee bit further on ... AFTER THEIR WITNESSING IS COMPLETED ... after they are 'killed' ... and then BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE ... where do they go ...?

Rev. 11:11,12 says ...

11 And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. 12 And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: “Come on up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

All in all ... It IS an interesting subject ... and one I so look forward to not only seeing fulfilled ... but HOW it will be fulfilled ...:D

Luv BR :bouncyhearts:

3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Well from this they seem to be two men, with great power.. of God bestowed upon them, Like BR said. they seem to mimic the prophets of old. The thing I noticed was the two olive tree's, My understanding of these two tree's is that they are representative of Isreal and gentiles. And the other part is the plagues which are spoken of in the sixth seal and the 6th sign of the times,
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
This also matches with Moses first plague of Bloody water.

To me it seems that, God is going to re-enact what he has done before and these things will make it very clear that it is God's hand that is doing this. Since all things have been written beforehand.

Granted this is just my take on things right now..

TD