Recently I finished reading the fifth installment in a series that had been fairly well written and gave some insight into the way people view the world. I do not know how many people here are familiar with Anne Rice's Blood Canticles, also called the Vampire Chronicles, but I would like to express the way this view viewed Heaven, Earth and Shoel (Hell). Earth being the most disturbing part, and Sheol, the second. In it Memnoch, the author's portrayer of the Prince of Darkness, takes the character through a tour of the three worlds and their creation. The events leading to his falling and the war he wages with God. Though once again very well written it could easily be deemed dangerous to those easily swayed by the thinking presented in it. But one of the more disquieting was Sheol.
In it, Shoel was not a place of fire and damnation, nor was it a pugatory. It was what the souls made it. And they would spin in hatred and distrust for themselves and God, and so would be their fate until they came to forgive the world, God and mostly themselves for the way life had been and their imprisonment. I know most people on this board do not believe in hell, and I was raised to, but always felt it was a rather unfair judgement to live eternally in pain and suffering for a mistake. In the view presented, the mistake was lived again and again until people came to realize that to err is human. There was no being saved by anything, only oneself.
The real question I have today is what is this Sheol? The common grave spoken of in the Bible? Is it oblivion until such a time as the ressurection? Is it a time of waiting? Or do people truly believe in the idea of hell fire or even that it is a time to face ones sins head on and realize them? The reason I bring this here is because I know there will be different views on this question, but in your opinion, what is Hell, Sheol or whatever you choose to call it?
"In the view presented, the mistake was lived again and again until people came to realize that to err is human. There was no being saved by anything, only oneself"
Hi Draka interesting choice of words ??
do people not already believe this and live it. I beleive I have heard that if we do not learn from our mistakes we are bound to repeat them.
To me the way to break out of this cycle is to start our search for wisdom. as the script says it is the begining. So in that sense I think people can live A type of hell right here and now. have you never seen it before? you try to tell somone where they are thinking wrong and they blow you off and end up going right back into the same old thing that made them miserable the last time. So if we start to want to try we can be shown how to repent "turn around" not repeat the same mistakes.
God does this with us and most people blow him off. Look at cain. he was warned and yet persisted in his own path.
I fully agree with the WT explaination regarding Sheol\Hades\Hell. It is fully in agreement with the scriptures.
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
[font=Impact]
[font=Arial]Hello friends..
I do think Sheol and Hades are the same things..1st being Hebrew and second being Greek.
But, I no longer believe it's the common grave..because I think we live on, unless we've committed the unforgivable sin. Jehovah says, he is the God of the living, not the dead. I do think, however, we are in a sleep-like state..but yet alive.
I think Hell or Gehenna is a place or a state of mind where we will be tormented at judgement day..realizing the extent of our error, but not necessarily getting the death sentence.. As in the story of the Richman and Lazarus. But not eternal and not literal fire..:badmood: It's thunderstorming here...
And then there is the 'lake of fire'..which is the second death. or the place of unforgiveness.. different, I believe from Gehenna.[/color][/font][color=#008080]
I fully agree with the WT explaination regarding Sheol\Hades\Hell. It is fully in agreement with the scriptures.
Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
Me, too, my favorite brother with a "Bang!" :D
lately i am becoming more unsure of my understanding of what happens at death, yes of course we die, Jehovah told adam and eve they would.
" you will positively die"
but what is death?
sleep?
"the living are concious that they will die but as for the dead they are concious of nothing at all"
yes the mortal dies and returns to the earth and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.
but what is the spirit ?
is it a universal force that animates every creature, man and beast, or is it an individual spirit that gives us our unique identity?
what makes us who we are?
what gives us our personality our very self,
what makes a new born child be a unique individual from day one until the day they die?
at present i am pondering these things, thought i would attach here so as not to offend anyone and hopefully get some much needed guidance from interested ones.
thanks
Elihu
Hi Melancolymuse,
thanks for that link your site has always provided me with much needed guidance when i have found myself in vagueness over scripture.
however this is something that i feel has not been addressed by the WT in their understanding of the state of death.
as i said " what makes us individuals"
reasoning
if a common life force called "The Spirit" is sent forth by God at our conception and removed by God at our death, and this spirit is a common force, using a WT analogy like electricity that animates electrical devices, then what contains the "who we are code" if you like
what makes us who we are
the birth of our first child and the following eight years have made me ask this question.
how was she so unique, how is every animal ever born so unique, it may look the same as others of its species, but as a person who has kept animals for many years it has been apparant to me that all are unique individuals.
same mother same father but each offspring have different personalities and characteristics. one might be timid the other boisterous and bossy.
children are the same,
same mother same father different personalities
yes life experience can mould a person but it is outstandingly notable by any parent that their children are different from birth.
perhaps some are not a great deal different to their brothers and sisters, others may be totally different.
so , is it the physical body that is born of flesh that dictates who we are, or is it Gods spirit that makes us who we are as individuals.
by questioning this i am not trying to say that i think the spirit that animates the body is a person that has existed elsewhere and returns to where they came from at the death of the body, no but merely that God has the ability to create us as individuals using his spirit and reclaims that identity of us at death.
and in the resurrection of the dead our individual identity will be restored to us, for if this is not the case at the resurrection of the dead how will be resurrected into who we once were?
the account of Lazarus
" Lazarus come out"
lazarus was still Lazarus with all his characteristics, did his body make him who he was or did Gods spirit which returned into him at Christs command?
we are in Gods memory, is it like putting a programming cd into a computer, the computer is a dead piece of complicated machinery until it is programmed to do what it is required
is the spirit God sends to make us alive a much more complicated program, that gives us the basics of our very selves but is flexible and programmable in order to allow us to make choices and determine our beliefs and to grow and develope as individuals?
just pondering these things
Elihu
I still believe what I was taught re Hades. It is a temporary 'holding place' if you like - not permanent or the final destination as it will cease to exist one day in the future.
'The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them . . . Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire' (Revelation 20:13,14).
Jesus Christ has the key (for releasing) to Hades as he says '..I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore . . . And I have the keys of Hades and Death' (Revelation 1:18).
Tessa
:clap: Hey Elihu!! :clap:
:thumbsup: Brother -- those are good questions, perhaps you would like to start a thread with them, I think it would be a good idea mate! :thumbsup:
May LOVE be with you!
your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:
I'm mindful of what Br. Russell once wrote on this subject, paraphasing he said: 'The Lord said "'dying thou shalt die', not 'roasting thou shalt roast'.
how was she so unique, how is every animal ever born so unique
Ahh...question of the millenium, Grasshopper!
Perhaps we are unique in our ability to realize our oneness?
I see "oneness" as synchronization. Being "in-sync" with Jehovah is where we lack...and the ultimate goal of our spirituality. The question is: does Jehovah have the ability to create unique individuals who can bridge the great crevasse to oneness without sacrificing individuality? I think He does...and He did.
gus
:wave: Just found another good one:
http://www.helltruth.com/
JW's are definitely not the only ones who don't believe in an immortal soul or an everlasting punishment in hell. :thumbup:
:peace:
note - I edited this to fix that link. :whistle:
It's good to go now! ;)
"JW's are definitely not the only ones who don't believe in an immortal soul or an everlasting punishment in hell."
Absolutely true statement, in my view. I was taught from a VERY early age in "burning hellfire" and the "immortal soul." I did not believe that at age 3 and I don't believe it now. It was not possible (even then) for a preacher to instill in me a fear of hellfire. I could not embrace the concept then and still do not. A "burning hellfire" goes against all I feel in my heart and have learned in my head as an adult.
The "immortal soul" is another matter. I have always had a hard time with that one. I believe that a soul is immortal only if HE wishes it to be so. I don't believe my "God of love" would torment any soul everlastingly. I am basing my belief on no more than what I feel in my heart. Yes, I read all the links except the one that was a book (basically) as time did not allow, for now (I did read quite a bit of it though).
Yes, I read scripture and try to understand, look for answers to questions and hope to find answers that I can decipher and digest.
I think it takes unending faith to see what we are supposed to see in the scriptures. The answers are there. Just because we have not found them in plain english, meaning what they are supposed to mean, does not mean the truth is not there.
Perhaps, the re-reading is intentional. Perhaps we must read, re-read and absorb each verse as it is given and learn to understand what HE wants us to know.
If the true meaning of life could be set down in a book with steps to an end, um, a users manual, if you will, we would all know how to act. The users manual would tell us. Right? We DO have a users manual, the Holy Bible. (Understanding it might have been left to MicroSoft to decipher. Tough beans for us.)
Read it, re-read it, TRY to understand it. Having faith helps.
Free will, as given by the Heavenly Father, allows us to become who we are. Therefore, our uniqueness is also His gift. Oops - I think that is another thread... lol.
OH - Hellfire. I don't believe in it.
UH - Immortal Soul. Only by His will.
Anyhousen, it is what I believe.
Verb
:siskiss: