06-26-2007, 11:07 PM
06-27-2007, 12:37 AM
I read the article by Herb Pope and the discussion response by Danny Haszard. All I can say is: Danny Haszard is the most prolific anti-watchtower guy in the world. If you read an article on Lutherans and it has a comment section...there is Danny Haszard. He is everywhere!
Herb Pope might be a little over-the-top with his criticism of JWs.
"When Jehovah’s Witnesses knock on your door there are always two of them. One is a deceiver in training. The other is a demon, training the deceiver."
I don't recall my past life as a demon. I will say that satan is the god of this system of things and leave it at that. The watchtower is no exception to the rule when it comes to playing both ends against the middle. But individual JWs, though deceived, are victims - not demons.
gus
Herb Pope might be a little over-the-top with his criticism of JWs.
"When Jehovah’s Witnesses knock on your door there are always two of them. One is a deceiver in training. The other is a demon, training the deceiver."
I don't recall my past life as a demon. I will say that satan is the god of this system of things and leave it at that. The watchtower is no exception to the rule when it comes to playing both ends against the middle. But individual JWs, though deceived, are victims - not demons.
gus
06-27-2007, 07:20 AM
whoa--harsh. :( I really don't relate with the motives given witnesses in this article. I really thought for the longest time it was all about love of God, love of each other and love of neighbor- and for me that Was true as it is true for most of the friends practicing......Now the leadership :( different story......:love:
06-27-2007, 09:55 AM
I agree with both of you Gus and Wolfie.
When you criticize too harshly you lose the impact of criticizing with sound argument.
(I still liked it though--he he)
brant
When you criticize too harshly you lose the impact of criticizing with sound argument.
(I still liked it though--he he)
brant
06-27-2007, 10:32 AM
Yes - extremely harsh - and quite an unloving, unChristian attack. Even Danny said: "WOW this is more severe than even I would post!" And that's saying something! Actually - Danny never does attack Witnesses themselves as being 'demonic' - but the hierarchy of the leadership - as wolfie said - that's another story. As it should be.
"..victims - not demons..." I agree.
If every single thing is supposed to be seen as absolutes, black or white - then why does love have anything at all to cover? And yet it does need to cover multitudes of 'things'....:heartbeat::love::heartbeat::happyheart::heartbeat:
Coverin' ya'll with lots o' my love(lol):friends::grouphug::hug:
Willa :peace:
"..victims - not demons..." I agree.
If every single thing is supposed to be seen as absolutes, black or white - then why does love have anything at all to cover? And yet it does need to cover multitudes of 'things'....:heartbeat::love::heartbeat::happyheart::heartbeat:
Coverin' ya'll with lots o' my love(lol):friends::grouphug::hug:
Willa :peace:
06-27-2007, 11:43 AM
Brant
I was quite disturbed when i read your link. I dont appreciate reading these sort of attacks on my friends and family who are still in the org. It is vicious and just plain cruel. Next time you post something like this please think twice before doing it. You'll be wise to consider Phil 4:8.
I was quite disturbed when i read your link. I dont appreciate reading these sort of attacks on my friends and family who are still in the org. It is vicious and just plain cruel. Next time you post something like this please think twice before doing it. You'll be wise to consider Phil 4:8.
06-27-2007, 11:47 AM
Although there are SOME legitimate points made but generally this guy way overdoes it. :angry:
06-27-2007, 12:19 PM
The way I look at it; one has to pay his dues and earn his right to criticize the WTS. Otherwise, shut up!:coffeeread:
06-27-2007, 09:50 PM
I'm not against criticism...no matter how shocking it may be. The more shocking it is, the more the criticizer demonstrates his own character...and as Brant says: he loses impact...and he loses his reasonable audience. There will always be bomb-throwers out there...and I appreciate knowing who they are.
Herb Pope = bomb-thrower = can't be trusted.
I like it when people demonstrate what they're made of. Then, they judge themselves.
But Danny Haszard is literally the anti-watchtower man-of-steel. I mean, I've been online since 2001 and rarely does a week go by when I don't read a new WT critique by him. Wonder if Danny has a life outside his personal anti-watchtower mission. I wonder if he'll ever let it go?
gus
Herb Pope = bomb-thrower = can't be trusted.
I like it when people demonstrate what they're made of. Then, they judge themselves.
But Danny Haszard is literally the anti-watchtower man-of-steel. I mean, I've been online since 2001 and rarely does a week go by when I don't read a new WT critique by him. Wonder if Danny has a life outside his personal anti-watchtower mission. I wonder if he'll ever let it go?
gus
06-28-2007, 09:43 AM
Yannis,
didnt mean to disturb you. I don't believe any of us "accepted" what the guy said as absolute truth, however, his point of view, though radical tells all of us that there is a lot of anger out there against the WT.
With regard to the "demonism" claims that he so lightly threw around, I feel that there is a basis in truth for some of the claims.
I feel that the way people are treated who disagree with the WT policy with the UN, and disagree with some of the teachings of the WT displays a very demonistic spirit.
There is no love in the manner in which they attacked me. While I agree with others on the board that this guys rants go way to far, because he is actually accusing all the publishers that go in service of being under the influence of the demons, I do think that a person must examine "what sort of spirit it is that impels the Organizations WITNESSING ACTIVITY".
Is it to show love and kindness and teach truth? Maybe that was your motive and my motive, but what about the force behind that expansion activity. Is it the Spirit of God, or the spirit of the demons?
Is it kind and loving, or does its fruitage display that there is an entirely different reason behind the scenes, such as money, power over people's lives? In short, is the WT corrupt, or is it good, or is it that simple?
Some on this thread have pointed out that they follow Danny Hazzard fairly closely. I always look forward to what he writes personally, and he is angry to the extreme at the WT and the harm and hurt that it did to him and others he loves. Are his comments also offensive to you?
The journey away from the TOWER is a long and horrible and eye-opening experience. I have no desire to hurt your sensibilities and add to your pain, but I will say that to underestimate the evil that is done in the name of Jehovah by the WT is a dangerous thing.
I wish you the very best in your journey, and I pray that I have helped, not hurt you in that journey.
Brant
didnt mean to disturb you. I don't believe any of us "accepted" what the guy said as absolute truth, however, his point of view, though radical tells all of us that there is a lot of anger out there against the WT.
With regard to the "demonism" claims that he so lightly threw around, I feel that there is a basis in truth for some of the claims.
I feel that the way people are treated who disagree with the WT policy with the UN, and disagree with some of the teachings of the WT displays a very demonistic spirit.
There is no love in the manner in which they attacked me. While I agree with others on the board that this guys rants go way to far, because he is actually accusing all the publishers that go in service of being under the influence of the demons, I do think that a person must examine "what sort of spirit it is that impels the Organizations WITNESSING ACTIVITY".
Is it to show love and kindness and teach truth? Maybe that was your motive and my motive, but what about the force behind that expansion activity. Is it the Spirit of God, or the spirit of the demons?
Is it kind and loving, or does its fruitage display that there is an entirely different reason behind the scenes, such as money, power over people's lives? In short, is the WT corrupt, or is it good, or is it that simple?
Some on this thread have pointed out that they follow Danny Hazzard fairly closely. I always look forward to what he writes personally, and he is angry to the extreme at the WT and the harm and hurt that it did to him and others he loves. Are his comments also offensive to you?
The journey away from the TOWER is a long and horrible and eye-opening experience. I have no desire to hurt your sensibilities and add to your pain, but I will say that to underestimate the evil that is done in the name of Jehovah by the WT is a dangerous thing.
I wish you the very best in your journey, and I pray that I have helped, not hurt you in that journey.
Brant
06-28-2007, 11:45 AM
uninformed Wrote:
Yannis,
didnt mean to disturb you. I don't believe any of us "accepted" what the guy said as absolute truth, however, his point of view, though radical tells all of us that there is a lot of anger out there against the WT.
With regard to the "demonism" claims that he so lightly threw around, I feel that there is a basis in truth for some of the claims.
I feel that the way people are treated who disagree with the WT policy with the UN, and disagree with some of the teachings of the WT displays a very demonistic spirit.
There is no love in the manner in which they attacked me. While I agree with others on the board that this guys rants go way to far, because he is actually accusing all the publishers that go in service of being under the influence of the demons, I do think that a person must examine "what sort of spirit it is that impels the Organizations WITNESSING ACTIVITY".
Is it to show love and kindness and teach truth? Maybe that was your motive and my motive, but what about the force behind that expansion activity. Is it the Spirit of God, or the spirit of the demons?
Is it kind and loving, or does its fruitage display that there is an entirely different reason behind the scenes, such as money, power over people's lives? In short, is the WT corrupt, or is it good, or is it that simple?
Some on this thread have pointed out that they follow Danny Hazzard fairly closely. I always look forward to what he writes personally, and he is angry to the extreme at the WT and the harm and hurt that it did to him and others he loves. Are his comments also offensive to you?
The journey away from the TOWER is a long and horrible and eye-opening experience. I have no desire to hurt your sensibilities and add to your pain, but I will say that to underestimate the evil that is done in the name of Jehovah by the WT is a dangerous thing.
I wish you the very best in your journey, and I pray that I have helped, not hurt you in that journey.
Brant
didnt mean to disturb you. I don't believe any of us "accepted" what the guy said as absolute truth, however, his point of view, though radical tells all of us that there is a lot of anger out there against the WT.
With regard to the "demonism" claims that he so lightly threw around, I feel that there is a basis in truth for some of the claims.
I feel that the way people are treated who disagree with the WT policy with the UN, and disagree with some of the teachings of the WT displays a very demonistic spirit.
There is no love in the manner in which they attacked me. While I agree with others on the board that this guys rants go way to far, because he is actually accusing all the publishers that go in service of being under the influence of the demons, I do think that a person must examine "what sort of spirit it is that impels the Organizations WITNESSING ACTIVITY".
Is it to show love and kindness and teach truth? Maybe that was your motive and my motive, but what about the force behind that expansion activity. Is it the Spirit of God, or the spirit of the demons?
Is it kind and loving, or does its fruitage display that there is an entirely different reason behind the scenes, such as money, power over people's lives? In short, is the WT corrupt, or is it good, or is it that simple?
Some on this thread have pointed out that they follow Danny Hazzard fairly closely. I always look forward to what he writes personally, and he is angry to the extreme at the WT and the harm and hurt that it did to him and others he loves. Are his comments also offensive to you?
The journey away from the TOWER is a long and horrible and eye-opening experience. I have no desire to hurt your sensibilities and add to your pain, but I will say that to underestimate the evil that is done in the name of Jehovah by the WT is a dangerous thing.
I wish you the very best in your journey, and I pray that I have helped, not hurt you in that journey.
Brant
Brant
I dont particularly care much for what Danny Hazzard has to say. I dont know what all he went through in the truth and i am not in his shoes but it seems to me that holding a grudge is unhealthy.
Why is it so hard to move past the organization? Why do some continue to harp on the Witnesses even after being out for many years? I'm sure it's a direct result of the hurt and pain but we would do well to follow the example of the Amish who immediately forgive the man who killed those 8 little Amish girls last year and moved on by demolishing the school instead of keeping it to serve as a reminder. What a fine example of true Christianity.
I am under no illusion that it is an easy thing to do. But i think a good place to start the healing and forgiving process is by avoiding vindictive and unloving comments and statements about those still in.
Eventually the journey out of the org should lead us to be totally free. Not with one foot still in.
06-28-2007, 08:25 PM
Yannis wrote:
Brant
I dont particularly care much for what Danny Hazzard has to say. I dont know what all he went through in the truth and i am not in his shoes but it seems to me that holding a grudge is unhealthy.
Why is it so hard to move past the organization? Why do some continue to harp on the Witnesses even after being out for many years? I'm sure it's a direct result of the hurt and pain but we would do well to follow the example of the Amish who immediately forgive the man who killed those 8 little Amish girls last year and moved on by demolishing the school instead of keeping it to serve as a reminder. What a fine example of true Christianity.
I am under no illusion that it is an easy thing to do. But i think a good place to start the healing and forgiving process is by avoiding vindictive and unloving comments and statements about those still in.
Eventually the journey out of the org should lead us to be totally free. Not with one foot still in.
yannis
[/quote]
Dear Yannis:
Those would be good questions to ask him. I hope you do, I would enjoy reading what he had to say. I think he would take the position that if you are on a walk in the woods with a group and come across a dangerous poisonous snake, would you quietly move on or would you sound out a warning that would continue to protect others until the last person walked by. But, I will leave his answer to him.
Regarding the Amish that forgave that horrible murderer. I don't consider that a "Christian" act, I consider it an act of Idiocy. That man was a demon in the flesh. He neither apologized or repented. He was evil personified.
I do agree with you that as long as the org makes us mad that it still has power over us. I was there for 45 years, 30 as an elder, and I agree with you that hatred of them is a heavy load to carry. Maybe one day I will get past it myself. Till then though, don't be looking to me to forgive them for not only what they did to me and mine, but what the continue to do to so many.
It would be interesting to know more about you. Your age, experience in life, years in the org, when or if you have left, and why, if you did. That would help me understand your view a little better.
Brant
Brant
I dont particularly care much for what Danny Hazzard has to say. I dont know what all he went through in the truth and i am not in his shoes but it seems to me that holding a grudge is unhealthy.
Why is it so hard to move past the organization? Why do some continue to harp on the Witnesses even after being out for many years? I'm sure it's a direct result of the hurt and pain but we would do well to follow the example of the Amish who immediately forgive the man who killed those 8 little Amish girls last year and moved on by demolishing the school instead of keeping it to serve as a reminder. What a fine example of true Christianity.
I am under no illusion that it is an easy thing to do. But i think a good place to start the healing and forgiving process is by avoiding vindictive and unloving comments and statements about those still in.
Eventually the journey out of the org should lead us to be totally free. Not with one foot still in.
yannis
[/quote]
Dear Yannis:
Those would be good questions to ask him. I hope you do, I would enjoy reading what he had to say. I think he would take the position that if you are on a walk in the woods with a group and come across a dangerous poisonous snake, would you quietly move on or would you sound out a warning that would continue to protect others until the last person walked by. But, I will leave his answer to him.
Regarding the Amish that forgave that horrible murderer. I don't consider that a "Christian" act, I consider it an act of Idiocy. That man was a demon in the flesh. He neither apologized or repented. He was evil personified.
I do agree with you that as long as the org makes us mad that it still has power over us. I was there for 45 years, 30 as an elder, and I agree with you that hatred of them is a heavy load to carry. Maybe one day I will get past it myself. Till then though, don't be looking to me to forgive them for not only what they did to me and mine, but what the continue to do to so many.
It would be interesting to know more about you. Your age, experience in life, years in the org, when or if you have left, and why, if you did. That would help me understand your view a little better.
Brant
06-28-2007, 09:23 PM
uninformed Wrote:
Yannis wrote:
Brant
I dont particularly care much for what Danny Hazzard has to say. I dont know what all he went through in the truth and i am not in his shoes but it seems to me that holding a grudge is unhealthy.
Why is it so hard to move past the organization? Why do some continue to harp on the Witnesses even after being out for many years? I'm sure it's a direct result of the hurt and pain but we would do well to follow the example of the Amish who immediately forgive the man who killed those 8 little Amish girls last year and moved on by demolishing the school instead of keeping it to serve as a reminder. What a fine example of true Christianity.
I am under no illusion that it is an easy thing to do. But i think a good place to start the healing and forgiving process is by avoiding vindictive and unloving comments and statements about those still in.
Eventually the journey out of the org should lead us to be totally free. Not with one foot still in.
yannis
Brant
I dont particularly care much for what Danny Hazzard has to say. I dont know what all he went through in the truth and i am not in his shoes but it seems to me that holding a grudge is unhealthy.
Why is it so hard to move past the organization? Why do some continue to harp on the Witnesses even after being out for many years? I'm sure it's a direct result of the hurt and pain but we would do well to follow the example of the Amish who immediately forgive the man who killed those 8 little Amish girls last year and moved on by demolishing the school instead of keeping it to serve as a reminder. What a fine example of true Christianity.
I am under no illusion that it is an easy thing to do. But i think a good place to start the healing and forgiving process is by avoiding vindictive and unloving comments and statements about those still in.
Eventually the journey out of the org should lead us to be totally free. Not with one foot still in.
yannis
Dear Yannis:
Those would be good questions to ask him. I hope you do, I would enjoy reading what he had to say. I think he would take the position that if you are on a walk in the woods with a group and come across a dangerous poisonous snake, would you quietly move on or would you sound out a warning that would continue to protect others until the last person walked by. But, I will leave his answer to him.
Regarding the Amish that forgave that horrible murderer. I don't consider that a "Christian" act, I consider it an act of Idiocy. That man was a demon in the flesh. He neither apologized or repented. He was evil personified.
I do agree with you that as long as the org makes us mad that it still has power over us. I was there for 45 years, 30 as an elder, and I agree with you that hatred of them is a heavy load to carry. Maybe one day I will get past it myself. Till then though, don't be looking to me to forgive them for not only what they did to me and mine, but what the continue to do to so many.
It would be interesting to know more about you. Your age, experience in life, years in the org, when or if you have left, and why, if you did. That would help me understand your view a little better.
Brant
[/quote]
Brant
I can appreciate what you are saying and i certainly dont want to be telling anyone what to feel or how to act. I will leave that for someone more qualified then me. Mark 11:25.
I dont view what Danny Hazzard does as some sort of noble thing like take for instance what Ray Franz did by writing his book. That is my opinion.
The Amish were certainly not idiotic and what a disrespectful thing to say about them! They were acting like Jesus did on the cross when he forgave those who crucified him. Luke 23:34.
I little bit about myself since you've asked. I am 34 years old and was born and raised in the org. I was a Pioneer, Bethelite and Ministerial Servant. I started having doubts about three years ago and began investigating the Society. What i subsequently found out caused me to have a 'Crisis of Conscience' so i stopped attending meetings about a month ago. My family is still in and so i am a little sensitive when i hear generalizations made about the Witnesses. I dont consider it the truth anymore but i still respect their beliefs even if they dont mine.
By the way, before you started having doubts and left, as an elder how did you view "apostates"? Did you abuse them like you have been abused yourself? The reason i am asking is that i am reminded of what Paul said at Gal 1:14 about being zealous for the Law. Paul didnt know any better when he went murdering Christians. I didnt know any better when i was a witness and that is how i view the friends. They dont know any better and act as how i would have acted in the past.
How can i judge them?