Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

OK here are some random thoughts for consideration based on some Bible verses that I've been mulling over in light of some of the early Christian writings.

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men." - Gen 6:4

In looking at this scripture I'm intrigued by the underlined portion. If we understand "those days" to mean the world that existed before the flood; then how are we to understand it when it says "and also after this"? Does this mean that somehow there were Nephilim in the earth after the flood?

There is an interesting account in Numbers 13:33 that is sometimes quickly dismissed. In it the Hebrew spies go into the land of Canaan and bring back an unfavorable report, saying:

We even saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak came from the Nephilim), and we seemed liked grasshoppers both to ourselves and to them.”

There are several ways of looking at this.

Some may say that these "Nephilim" were really just giants, or simply tall humans, and that spies were exaderating by linking them to the pre-flood Nephilim. That is a possibility. [The parenthetical states that we are really talking about the sons of Anak that came from the Nephilim.] But looking at Genesis 6:4 which says, "and also after this", could it be that these really were connected to the Nephilim?

If this were true that then that would introduce some difficulties. At Genesis 6:13, God declares that he is sending a flood to destroy "all flesh". How then did the Nephilim survive the flood?

An option could be that once again the "sons of God" cohabited with human women and produced a new brood of "Nephilim" offspring. A problem with this is that 2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 seem to indicate that the fallen angels that abandoned their proper domain had been chained and imprisoned. If so, then this would rule out their cohabitating with women. Could it be that after the flood a different set of "sons of God" left Heaven to take human women as wives? Perhaps. However, there is another suggestion that I've come across.

As some may know that I enjoy looking at the writings of the early Christians of the 2nd & 3rd. If you do not have access to the complete set of Ante-Nicene Church Fathers I would recommend David Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs. What Mr. Bercot has done is comb through those volumes and arranged quotes topically in a single volume in a Ecyclopedia or Dictionary format.

Typically today we associate "demons" with fallen angels with an eye in particular to those angels that Jude and Peter speak about. However, the early Christians universally associated "demons" with the Nephilim. (Jewish literature of Jesus' day equally makes this same connection.) These early Christian writers continually differentiate between fallen (or the Devil's) angels and demons/unclean spirits.

It is an intriguing possibility. When laying down the curse upon fallen mankind, God declared, "from dust you are to dust you will return" (Gen 3:19) However, what happens at death when a creature is part man (dust) and part angel (spirit)? What if it is correct, as the early Christian's wrote, that the "spirit" part of the Nephilim continued to roam the earth long after the "flesh" perished? God said that the flood would bring an end to all "flesh" and the Genesis account says that Nephilim were also in the world after the flood. If this were true it may explain why demons tend to seek out and inhabit the bodies of humans and animals. (See Matthew 8:28-34) It would be make an interesting link to how the Nephilim brought the downfall of that world and the demons today continue their work of felling and misleading humankind. This could also clear up an understanding of 2 Peter & Jude, because it has often puzzled me that if fallen angels had been bound in chains and abyssed (similiar to the Dragon, Satan during the Millenium) where were all the demons that we read about in the New Testament coming from?

Just some non-dogmatic thoughts, scriptures, and questions . . .

Does 2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 1:6 indicate that the chaining and imprisonment happened BEFORE the flood? :thinking:

Good question. If you look at the 2 Peter 2:4 scripture it is linking the judgment of those fallen angels with other judgments by God, like the flood and Sodom and Gamorrah. I guess that would put it in the past; but, I don't know if this should be understood as in chronological listing of judgments.

Tony, I have been thinking lately.. like you were saying:

The idea that we are part spirit (angel) person and part flesh and bones. I think this would explain how Jesus could have come to the earth and inhabited a body, but yet still fully be the 'son of God' and the 'son of man'. Hmm. This could explain how the demons inhabits bodies.. as they still do.. They could use anybodies body.. and fully posess them and then have relations with the women.. Maybe this Gen..account was the 1st time demons possessed people.. ?

What I'm curious about is if there is any scriptural reason to link "demons" with "fallen angels" as we commonly do today. To the Jews in Jesus' day and to the early Christians they were different.

Here are some thoughts regarding your interest in bible passages related to the Nephilim. Genesis 6:4 reads:

“The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.”

If you look at the Hebrew for the words “and also after that” it can be translated as “afterward” or “following” or “behind”. Some bible translations place a semicolon after the word “days” instead of a coma indicating that the passage “The Nephilim were in the earth in those days” would constitute a completely thought. The NWT inserts the word “when” as a way of indicating that “and also after that” occurs “when” the spirit sons took human women as their wives. It becomes clearer if you insert the word “following” or “afterward” in place of “and also after that”. Doing so, would produce the thought: “The Nephilim were in the earth in those days. Afterward (following) when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughter of men, and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.” The thought here being that they did not continue after the flood, but that they were produced after the spirit sons took women as their wives.

Numbers 13:33 in the NWT reads “And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who are from the Nephilim, so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same we became in their eyes.

First, it is necessary to look at the original Hebrew to deduce what the word “Nephilim” means in this context. Nephilim means simply “giants” in Hebrew. Other bible translations use the word Nephilim interchangeably with the word “giants”. So if you use the word “giants” in place of the word Nephilim, it becomes clear what is being said by the spies who were afraid of the size of the inhabitants of Canaan. The thought was: “And there we saw giant; the sons of Anak, who are from giants, so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same we became in their eyes.”

As you also pointed out: “If this were true that then that would introduce some difficulties. At Genesis 6:13, God declares that he is sending a flood to destroy "all flesh". How then did the Nephilim survive the flood?” They did not survive the flood because “all flesh” was destroyed. The Nephilim were flesh, thus they were destroyed.

'It is an intriguing possibility. When laying down the curse upon fallen mankind, God declared, "from dust you are to dust you will return" (Gen 3:19) However, what happens at death when a creature is part man (dust) and part angel (spirit)?'

The Nephilim were not part man and part spirit. They were all human but with some very significant differences. The sons of God, took wives for themselves. Therefore they left their heavenly positions made human bodies for themselves and took wives. In the Bible there are other examples of angels take on human bodies to interact with humans (Gen. 18:2-) Taking wives, indicates more than a short sexual relationship, they lived amongst men and had wives. The children born to them were the result of human mothers and spirit creatures in human form. When the flood occurred the “spirit sons” could leave, but the Nephilim could not. They were flesh.

Also, the “spirit sons” were punished for violating God's arrangement that “spirit sons” should not be forsaking their heavenly place and becoming intimate with human women and thus in the Christian Greek Scriptures we find out that they were indeed chained and imprisoned. God made it clear that this was a practice that would result in their being thrown into the abyss, without waiting until the end of times. It is highly unlikely that other “spirit sons” would try this again, once they saw how others had been punished.

“It would be make an interesting link to how the Nephilim brought the downfall of that world and the demons today continue their work of felling and misleading humankind. This could also clear up an understanding of 2 Peter & Jude, because it has often puzzled me that if fallen angels had been bound in chains and abyssed (similiar to the Dragon, Satan during the Millenium) where were all the demons that we read about in the New Testament coming from?

Jude 6-7 help us to answer this question as it says “And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. So too Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are places before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire”

Therefore only the angels guilty of fornication and the unnatural use of flesh (like those in Sodom and Gomorrah) were to be thrown into the abyss. This would leave many disobedient spirit sons left over to run rampant through the New Testament.

Anyway, just my thoughts on a very interesting subject. :thumbsup:

youngestone - thanks for using your first post to contribute to this topic!

Welcome to the forum!

As an interesting tangent to this topic, the asumption has always been made (by the Society) that the Nephilim were steril, like mules. Is it possible that this might not be true. I remember years ago an older "Witness" brother with a medical background (who's opinion I respected) suggested that this might be a possiblity. And that these genes might account for "giants" throughout history, such as the Rephaim or Gibborim.

Any thoughts??

Hay John, I like that thought. Maybe they were not sterile. That would explain some things. Like, why would some of the Canaanites be any larger then the Jews, being so closely related? Also, maybe the Nephilim weren't so dumb either, accounting for some of the unexplained advanced archaeological discoveries of late....e-m
Hi youngestone and Tony:drinking:

"WELCOME" to Paradise Cafe, Youngestone! What a marvelous piece of exegetical exposition!

I agree with all that you have written; I couldn't have done it nearly as well, if you gave me ten tries! :D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To John and e-magine: It doesn't really matter whether the Nephilim were sterile or not. (I believe they were.) 'Cause, after the flood, ... they were all dead. :shocked: Bye, bye, spirit/flesh "gene pool"!

Just another passing thought -

What I find interesting is that Bible doesn't necessarily tell us what demons are and where they come from. The OT doesn't even hardly mention them at all.

The predominant belief today in Chistendom (including the Jehovah's Witnesses) is that the demons are fallen angels and so many have adopted this view as fact and have never questioned it. I myself was one of them.

But my surprise was finding out that this is actually a later teaching that didn't come to the forefront until about the 6th century. As mentioned in my original posting; the earlier view of the Christian congregation was that the demons were the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim.

Ultimately since the Bible isn't all that concerned with them I doubt we should be either. The important thing to know is that we have power over them in Jesus' name! HURRAY!!!

:friends:

-Anthony

Yea Duh! :blush:

Sorry folks for my poor manners...leaping into conversation without so much as a "howdy do", but the topic was so interesting, I forgot to say "hi" ........."Hi" :blush:

As for the thought above, I would be interested to know, biblically, how the the Nicene fathers came to this conclusion. I would suggest that their theory that demons were the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, would be very consistent with their theology on the immortality of the soul. Just curious Anthony, about their reasoning on this.

As for Jesus, he was born a man and he died a man. He did not continue after death, transferring from place to place. He was resurrected by his father from death.

humbly yours YoungestOne

The Hebrew word "Nephilim" does not, in fact, mean "giants." It means "fellers (those who cause others to fall)." It is actually inappropriate for translators to render the word as "giants," though it does seem apparent that one of the characteristics of these "fellers" is that they were great in size.