Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I was asked by Isomam to put up this research on prayer and worship, that I had done on another board, but I thought it was lost.

However, Resolute unearthed them and sent them to me.

I will probably have to go over them and tidy them up, but I thought I would get them on the board, and we can pick away at them after.

love vicky

The NWT took the unusual position of leaving every word dealing with hell/grave/death, in the original language, since the words 'Sheol' in Hebrew, and 'Hades' in Greek, were being rendered variously into several different English words by translators.

Another method, is to find an English word that is pretty close to the Greek meaning, and translate consistently using that word.

However, translators often render the same word differently, and the reader will have no clue.
This sometimes prevents the reader from joining the dots.
Unfortunately this problem is not isolated.
There are many cases of translating the identical word differently according to the whim of the translator.

For instance, should khristos be translated as anointed, rubbed on, or Christ. We talk about the anointed, we don't refer to them as the christs, though it is the same word.
'Anointed' is a translation, 'Christ' is a transliteration of Khristos.

Translators decide whether they will allow the word messenger - aggelos (pronounced angelos) to be translated as messenger, or transliterated into angel.
They often spend much time debating whether the messenger is a human or a spirit. If they think it is a spirit messenger it becomes an angel.

Kyrios, is translated as Lord or Jehovah in the NWT, and most of it is down to the translator's discretion.
In 1 Thess 5:2, it talks about Jehovah's day. In Revelation 1:10 it talks about the Lord's day.

The Greek text says the Lord's day in both cases. The NWT 'translators' have made the assumption for us that one Kyrios is... Lord and the other... Jehovah.

I won't even venture to say whether the NWT is scholarly, but since the translators have not mastered good English, I do have to wonder about their skills in ancient languages.


We get a better understanding of prayer, worship and service, if we translate them consistently and know what was the 'flavour' of the original Greek word.

Let's start with the word prayer.
There are two words that are translated prayer, the first mentioned here is less frequently rendered prayer. Though in tone it is the word with the closest meaning to the original Old English word 'prayer'.

Epikaleo...epi (upon) kaleo (call) means simply call upon, and should be translated as such, consistently, where it occurs, unless the reader understands the origin of the word prayer....see later. (Acts 7:59, footnote)

There is another word translated as prayer..

The word pros-eukhomai....pros (towards), and eukhomai (prayer/vow), is generally just translated as 'to pray', but there is more to this word. This word shows how much we can lose in translation.

Proseukhomai gets special consideration later.

Further to my point of going back to the etymology of the Greek words, to understand what is being said, I think the same applies here:-

Worship

Proskuneo....pros (towards) kuneo (to beseech on hands and knees). I believe the origin of kuneo is literally to grovel like a dog (kuneos...like a dog) hence the word canine. [Greek scholars please help]. So proskuneo includes the idea of humbly, beseeching, on hands and knees before a person, an official, or......God.

The Greeks were on their hands and knees all the time before their gods, particularly when you consider how many gods they had!

Satan had said, "All these things I will give you, if ever you having fallen down, you beseech/honour on all fours, towards me (proskuneses)"...

Jesus replied, "It has been written, Jehovah, the God of you, you must beseech/honour on hands and knees towards (proskuneseis) and to him alone (mono) you must serve (latreuseis).
Mtt. 4:9,10

When we know the word rendered 'worship' infers getting down on our hands and knees to show honour, or in a beseeching manner, it helps us understand the full text.
Hence Satan said fall down on your hands and knees and give me honour.

'Sacred' Service

Latreou is to work for hire or pay.
It can mean to be enslaved to, or bound in service to someone, but when refering to serving the gods, it is assumed to mean sacred service, though in this case it just means to serve God; 'sacred' is not in the greek it has been added.

We must remember the Greek language was developed by a people who had many gods, and were always bowing down, grovelling, making offerings and serving them. So all these words can take on an additional connotation of worship when done before their gods. Context is therefore important.


Avoiding the loosely applied words of 'worship' and 'prayer' can help us understand better what is being said.

If you look at Rev 19:10, John fell at the feet of the angel to 'proskunesai'.
In John's mind was he really planning on worshipping the angel?

No I don't think so. "He fell at the feet of an angel, to proskunesai (honour on hands and knees) so the angel said don't do that.....instead he said......to the God beseech/honour on your hands and knees (proskuneson) you must". [paraphrased from the Greek]

In Matthew 18:26 the same word is used, but this time it is translated as do obeisance, but it means exactly the same thing.
"The slave fell down and did proskuneo ('grovelled') on his hands and knees before the master".

When the magi visited Jesus as a baby Mtt.2:2,11, they performed proskuneo. This gets translated as obeisance in the NWT.

So proskuneo tells the action, the position and the humility. It does not tell us that 'exclusive' worship is taking place.

I am sure it is self evident that there is a trap in not translating a word as close to its original meaning, and translating the same word in various ways.

Apart from the fact the the power of deduction has been wrested out of the hands of the reader, Bible scholars can rightly wade in and say the translation is biased.

In the NWT, when proskuneo refers to Jehovah or God it is rendered worship, when it is performed before Jesus, it is rendered obeisance.

Trinitarians pick this up in a flash.

A suitable word, like obeisance, or prostrate should be used consistently, or the reader needs to be educated as to the proper meaning of the word 'worship'.
See quote below.

We believe today you can only worship God, but that was not its meaning when the Bible was first translated.

'Worship' comes from worthy and shape, (shape meaning condition).
It literally means the condition of being worthy, or worthy condition. Which is why it is perfectly correct to use it as a title of honour "Your Worship"
(WORthySHIP).
This is similar to a Lord being called Your Lordship.


This is not blasphemy when used to a person, but the correct use of English. The churches have changed the meaning in the minds of the religious to think that the word 'worship' applies exclusively to God.

That was not its meaning when the Bible was initially translated into English.

An example of how churches mold our understanding of words is the ideas conjured up when you say hell and inferno.

For instance, if you say the word hell to someone, they will think of torture, link it with the word hellfire, and a time of testing, pitchforks and cloven hooves.
The original word meant nothing of this at all. It is Old English and means to cover over, hide or conceal. The word hall comes from the same root.
Years of Church teaching has warped the original meaning, so that in the minds of anyone hearing the word they think of the wrong meaning.

If you say the word inferno, people immediately think this means heat and raging fire. 'The towering inferno'. 'the temperature soared and it was an inferno'.
The word is Latin and means in the ground, actually a rather cool place! That's all!
Look it up in a Latin dictionary.
Religion has changed its meaning to something of terror.

So the true meaning of worship is to show honour by the position assumed, and this honour can be to anyone.

Another word that causes problems is the word Pray.
Most people think this is speech that should be directed exclusively to God.
When the Bible was translated into English this was not the case. Again the original word has acquired a different meaning.

Pray meant to respectfully ask. It could be directed to anyone.
It was used when someone was appealing to another in the form of a request. "Prithee kind sir", is a contraction of "pray thee kind sir". *

You could use the word pray towards anyone, but particularly to someone in authority, from whom you needed a favour.

It comes from the French word prier....to pray, or to ask. "Je vous prie",
means 'I pray of you', or 'I ask of you', and can be rightly used today in French, and still is, when making a request of another human.

Since the Bible was translated, the word pray still remains, but its meaning has changed.
Today we think it means to speak to a god whom we honour and can have no other meaning.
In modern English we do not pray to each other.
Unfortunately, modern translators have done nothing to help. They have left it in as a translation of words like epikaleo, whilst knowing that its meaning (in the minds of the general populace) is one of approaching God exclusively.

When the word pray was first used, it was a very good word to translate epikaleo 'to call upon'.

Today though when people see 'call upon'/pray they think of God and so all those who epikaleo/ call upon the name of Jesus, are according to some translations supposedly praying to him as part of exclusive devotion.

On the otherhand Paul called on Caesar and the same word was used....epikaleo Acts 25:11,25. The last thing Paul would do would be to 'pray' to Caesar, in the modern sense of the word.

*Bailiffs Daughter of Islington.
"I pray you, kind sir, give me one penny,
To ease my weary limb."
"I prithee, sweetheart, canst thou tell me
Where that thou wast born?"

Finally, yes we are getting there, let's look at Matt. 6:5,6

5. Also, when you pray, you must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to you, They are having their reward in full.

6. You, however, when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.

The verb being used here and translated as to pray is proseukhomai.

We know pros means toward, but the word eukhomai is interesting.

Liddel and Scotts 'EUKHOMAI':-
I)To pray, to pay one's vows.
II) To vow, to promise to do.
III) To vow loudly, make great promises, to boast:
To vaunt oneself.

Now we know why Jesus used this word!

If we perform eukhomai privately, discreetly, we are vowing, we are praying.

If we are doing it publicly, on the corners of the broad ways, the same word actually means we are boasting, trying to vaunt ourselves, with empty promises.

The English word pray unfortunately just doesn't quite convey this.

Love to you all
vicky

Daniel 2:40
"At that time King Nebuchadnezzar fell down upon his face, and to Daniel he paid homage proskuneo (septuagint)....... consequently the king made Daniel someone great".

Proskuneo is definitely not worship. King Neb. was a pagan, and was not worshipping Daniel, but we can see how it involves honouring someone.

vicky,

I enjoyed your discussion there. Thanks. Brant

A little more research:-

Proskuneo pros-koo-neh'-o,
from (4314) and a probable derivative of (2965) (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)

Definition
To kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians,
to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

1,used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
2,to the Jewish high priests
3,to God
4,to Christ
5,to heavenly beings
6,to demons

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4352

The equivalent word to proskuneo in the OT is:-
the Hebrew word shachah (Strong’s number 7812) http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=07812
It is used of bowing or prostrating oneself, often before a superior or before God.

In the King James Version, it is translated by a number of different English words, including: “worship” (99 times), “bow” (31 times), “bow down” (18 times), “obeisance” (9 times), and “reverence” (5 times).
So it is not just the NWT that translates the same word differently.


The examples of “worship” in the Bible confirms that in the biblical culture, people bowed down before those to whom they wanted to show respect or honor. Lot “worshipped” (shachah) the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He prostrated himself before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1). Moses “worshipped” (shachah) his father in law, whom he respected and honored (Ex. 18:7). Abigail “worshipped” (shachah) David. She honored him by prostrating herself before him.

These three examples can be multiplied many times over, but they show that when someone wanted to honor another, he would fall down before him.

When the words shachah appears in the Hebrew text, or proskuneo in the Greek text, they usually refer to the action of bowing down, and we can translate them that way into English, as the following examples show.

Genesis 23:7 (NIV)
Then Abraham rose and bowed down shachah before the people of the land, the Hittites.

Genesis 33:3 (NIV)
He himself [Jacob] went on ahead and bowed down shachah to the ground seven times as he approached his brother [Esau].

Genesis 42:6 (NIV)
Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down shachah to him with their faces to the ground.

In many Bible versions, when the words shachah or proskuneo are used of one person to another, the translators use the English words “bow down” or something similar. However, when shachah or proskuneo refers to a person “bowing down” before God or Jesus, the translators almost always use the English word “worship.”

This is why many Christians misunderstand the word “worship.”

When the Hebrew or Greek words for worship refer to men “worshipping” men, the translators use the words “bow down.” However, when the act of worship is toward God or Jesus, then the translators use the word “worship” in their Bibles.

This way of translating understandably leads the reader to believe that only God and Jesus are “worshipped” and it is something exclusive.
How can a person reading the Bible be expected to know that biblical “worship” (proskuneo, shachah) is not just for God and Jesus when in their Bible the word “worship” is only used in reference to them?

Therefore, is it any wonder that people reading certain Bibles often conclude that Jesus must be Jehovah God because Jesus is “worshipped.”

Thank you Vicky for this wonderful, encouraging research.

Christian love to all seekers of/for truth.

Worship in spirit and truth.

gogh

...

Vicky, I finally got around to reading your thread.

You certainly have made some very good comments here, bringing out word meanings that many people are simply not aware of. Thank you.

With warm Christian love,
Stephen

Thank you Stephen. I just want the information and understanding available.

An example of how churches mold our understanding of words is the ideas conjured up when you say hell and inferno.

For instance, if you say the word hell to someone, they will think of torture, link it with the word hellfire, and a time of testing, pitchforks and cloven hooves.
The original word meant nothing of this at all. It is Old English and means to cover over, hide or conceal. The word hall comes from the same root.
Years of Church teaching has warped the original meaning, so that in the minds of anyone hearing the word they think of the wrong meaning.

If you say the word inferno, people immediately think this means heat and raging fire. 'The towering inferno'. 'the temperature soared and it was an inferno'.
The word is Latin and means in the ground, actually a rather cool place! That's all!
Look it up in a Latin dictionary.
Religion has changed its meaning to something of terror.

Hi,
Thank you Vicky for posting these! Sometime back I was researching on a site ( Calvinist)and came upon comments on hell. Unfortunately they didn't quote which translations being refered to. But they mentioned "hell" has been translated with various words and listed , prison and watchtower as two of them.:eek:
The prison I had heard before, watchtower gave me a chuckle. We are taught to think of a watchtower as a place from which to keep watch, but they were used as prisons , like the famous Tower of London.
It was an interesting article & I'm sorry I didn't save it to favorites. I will try to find it again, it was about Jesus decending into hell & from a whole different perspective for me.
BF