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New thoughts on the New Covenant !

There has been much debate between many here and of course on Watchmans board regarding the new covenant and the covenant for a kingdom . This has even been a key factor in Watchmans decision to clear out many ones from his board who believed that all Christians are in the new covenant . Also the idea that the new covenant is different to the covenant for a kingdom .

Let us read the account again regarding the lord evening meal .

Luk 22:20  Also,  the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal,  he saying:  "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood,  which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
Luk 22:21   "But,  look!  the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.
Luk 22:22  Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out;  all the same,  woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!"
Luk 22:23  So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this.
Luk 22:24  However,  there also arose a heated dispute among them over which one of them seemed to be greatest.
Luk 22:25  But he said to them:  "The kings of the nations lord it over them,  and those having authority over them are called Benefactors.
Luk 22:26  YOU,  though,  are not to be that way.  But let him that is the greatest among YOU become as the youngest,  and the one acting as chief as the one ministering.
Luk 22:27  For which one is greater,  the one reclining at the table or the one ministering?  Is it not the one reclining at the table?  But I am in YOUR midst as the one ministering.
Luk 22:28   "However,  YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials;
Luk 22:29  and I make a covenant with YOU,  just as my Father has made a covenant with me,  for a kingdom,

I start the above biblical quotation with the meaning of the cup being pronounced by Christ as symbolising the new covenant . This covenant is interesting not only because of its significance but because a little later in verse 29 another covenant is mentioned .

Luk 22:29  and I make a covenant with YOU,  just as my Father has made a covenant with me,  for a kingdom,

Most JWs and most on Watchmans café hold that the new covenant and the covenant for a kingdom are the same covenant or to put it another way they believe that these covenants are only apply to the what they term anointed ones . These anointed are believed to be only comprised of 144,000 people and that now they only exist within the religion of Jehovah’s witnesses . Also there are only supposed to be around 8,000 anointed ones left .

Many questions arise over these beliefs but the most relevant seem to be these .

Does the new covenant and the covenant for a kingdom only apply to what JWs call the anointed ?

What is the difference between these two covenants ?

Well my contention is that the new covenant applies to all who are baptised into Christ or in other words most if not all Christians . However the covenant for a kingdom on the other hand seems to apply to a group within Christianity .

The first clue to this is found in the Greek word that is translated as covenant in verse 20 .

Luk 22:20  Also,  the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal,  he saying:  "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood,  which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

Here is what strongs says regarding this word .

G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.

Most bibles translate this word as testament which is why the Christian Greek scriptures as Jehovah’s witnesses call it is normally known as the new testament .

Interestingly the Greek word for covenant or testament in verse 20 is a different word to the Greek word translated as covenant in the NWT in verse 29.

Luk 22:29  and I make a covenant with YOU,  just as my Father has made a covenant with me,  for a kingdom,

Here is strongs notes on this Greek word .

G1303
διατίθεμαι
diatithemai
dee-at-ith'-em-ahee
Middle voice from G1223 and G5087; to put apart, that is, (figuratively) dispose (by assignment, compact or bequest): - appoint, make, testator.

The point here is that the NWT translate two different Greek words into the English word covenant . However although the meanings are similar they are not the same . The new covenant is the big one as it were, but the covenant for a kingdom is different . Its more like a promise or an extra added on top of the new covenant . To put it another way all Christians are in the new covenant but only a few of those Christians as long as they are baptized Christians can be in the covenant for a kingdom although all are included by God in the new covenant .

Vicky is the real expert on Greek and she may be able to explain the real difference between the two Greek words used .  

So right away we see evidence that the new covenant is different in some way to the covenant for a kingdom .

Why does the NWT translate both words as covenant ? Is this because they are trying to hide the fact that one promise is separate to the other ?

There is also more evidence that the New covenant is for everyone and is separate to the covenant for a kingdom although both are linked to the same foundation .

This evidence is found in a portion of scripture than the WT does not seem to have noticed is in fact a parallel of what was discussed at Christ’s last supper already quoted above .

This parallel account is found is Mark 10:35 and in Mathew 20:20 . Below is the account in Mark .

Mar 10:35  And James and John,  the two sons of Zeb'e·dee,  stepped up to him and said to him:  "Teacher,  we want you to do for us whatever it is we ask you for."
Mar 10:36  He said to them:  "What do YOU want me to do for YOU?"
Mar 10:37  They said to him:  "Grant us to sit down,  one at your right hand and one at your left,  in your glory."
Mar 10:38  But Jesus said to them:  "YOU do not know what YOU are asking for.  Are YOU able to drink the cup which I am drinking,  or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am being baptized?"
Mar 10:39  They said to him:  "We are able."  At that Jesus said to them:  "The cup I am drinking YOU will drink,  and with the baptism with which I am being baptized YOU will be baptized.
Mar 10:40  However,  this sitting down at my right or at my left is not mine to give,  but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared."
Mar 10:41  Well,  when the ten others heard about it,  they started to be indignant at James and John.
Mar 10:42  But Jesus,  after calling them to him,  said to them:  "YOU know that those who appear to be ruling the nations lord it over them and their great ones wield authority over them.
Mar 10:43  This is not the way among YOU;  but whoever wants to become great among YOU must be YOUR minister,
Mar 10:44  and whoever wants to be first among YOU must be the slave of all.
Mar 10:45  For even the Son of man came,  not to be ministered to,  but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many."


When I say this is a parallel account I know that Mark 10 is not the same instance as the Last supper account but that they are talking about the same things .

How do we know that these accounts are parallel?

Both accounts talk about a cup . Both talk about a position of power . Both talk about those who want to be great will have to be a slave or words to that affect .

Without getting to bogged down on the links between the last supper and this account in Mark and Mathew the question is what does this account in Mark and Mathew reveal about the New covenant and the covenant for a kingdom ?

Well Mark chapter ten seems to prove that everyone is part of the new covenant but only some will be in the covenant for a kingdom .
How so ? Well lets look at verse 39 :


Mar 10:39  They said to him:  "We are able."  At that Jesus said to them:  "The cup I am drinking YOU will drink,  and with the baptism with which I am being baptized YOU will be baptized.


We see that two of the disciples will indeed drink of the cup which here is linked with the baptism of Christ ( as opposed to the baptism of John the Baptist )

So according to the WT this must mean that these two disciples because they drink the blood of Christ will also rule in heaven and be part of the covenant for a kingdom right?

Wrong ! We see this is the next verse as follows :


Mar 10:40  However,  this sitting down at my right or at my left is not mine to give,  but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared."

So we see here that being baptized and drinking the wine that means Christ’s blood does not mean one is part of the covenant for a kingdom. However is does indicate that for one to potentially rule with Christ in heaven one does have to be drinking Christ’s blood and by extension his body by eating the bread and be baptized .

So Christ knew that these two disciples would eat and drink his body and blood and be baptized with the baptism of Christ which could mean their deaths as well but Christ did not know at this stage if Jehovah would grant them to rule with him in heaven or in other words be members of the 144,000 or part of the kingdom covenant .

So this seems like proof that all baptized Christians are in the new covenant but not necessarily in the covenant for a kingdom but those who will be in the covenant for a kingdom first have to be righteous and holy just like all others in the new covenant symbolized by baptism and the emblems of bread and wine .

Rom 11:16  Further,  if the  [part taken as]  firstfruits is holy,  the lump is also;  and if the root is holy,  the branches are also.

1Co 5:6  YOUR  [cause for]  boasting is not fine.  Do YOU not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump?
1Co 5:7  Clear away the old leaven,  that YOU may be a new lump,  according as YOU are free from ferment.  For,  indeed,  Christ our passover has been sacrificed.

Gal 5:9  A little leaven ferments the whole lump.

This scripture in Galatians is interesting as well .

Gal 5:9  A little leaven ferments the whole lump.
Gal 5:10  I am confident about YOU who are in union with  [the]  Lord that YOU will not come to think otherwise;  but the one who is causing YOU trouble will bear  [his]  judgment,  no matter who he may be.

The WT suggests that those “in union with the Lord” are the anointed or a better term is first fruits because it seems we are all anointed with the baptism of Christ . However this term “in union with seems like another WT adaptation .

Here are the strongs notes on the Greek word translated in the NWT as union .

G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

So what this scripture might really be trying to say is that Paul had confidence in the Lord that the Galatians would not be misled about the importance of the circumcision . Not that the Galatians were in union with the Lord because they were members of the 144,000 or anointed or the first fruits .

See these other translations :

(ALT)  _I_ have placed [my] confidence in you* in [the] Lord, that you* will think in no other way [or, will be intent on nothing else]. But the one disturbing you* will bear the judgment, whoever he should be.

(ASV)  I have confidence to you-ward in the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

(BBE)  I am certain about you in the Lord, that you will be of no other mind; but he who is troubling you will have his punishment, whoever he is.

(CEV)  but you belong to the Lord. That makes me certain that you will do what I say, instead of what someone else tells you to do. Whoever is causing trouble for you will be punished.

(Darby)  *I* have confidence as to you in the Lord, that ye will have no other mind; and he that is troubling you shall bear the guilt of it , whosoever he may be.

(DRB)  I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will not be of another mind: but he that troubleth you shall bear the judgment, whosoever he be.

(EMTV)  I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will be intent on nothing else; but he who troubles you will bear his judgment, whoever he may be.

(ESV)  I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is.

(GB)  I haue trust in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but hee that troubleth you, shall beare his condemnation, whosoeuer he be.

(GNB)  But I still feel confident about you. Our life in union with the Lord makes me confident that you will not take a different view and that whoever is upsetting you will be punished by God.

(GW)  The Lord gives me confidence that you will not disagree with this. However, the one who is confusing you will suffer God's judgment regardless of who he is.

(HCSB)  In the Lord I have confidence in you that you will not accept any other view. But whoever it is who is troubling you will pay the penalty.

(HNV)  I have confidence toward you in the Lord that you will think no other way. But he who troubles you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

(ISV)  I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view of the matter. However, the one who is troubling you will suffer God's judgment, whoever he is.

(KJV)  I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

(KJV+)  I1473 have confidence3982 in1519 you5209 through1722 the Lord,2962 that3754 ye will be none otherwise minded:5426, 3762, 243 but1161 he that troubleth5015 you5209 shall bear941 his judgment,2917 whosoever3748, 302 he be.5600

(KJVA)  I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

(KJVR)  I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

(LITV)  I trust as to you in the Lord that you will think nothing else, but that the one troubling you shall bear the judgment, whoever he may be.

(MKJV)  I have confidence in you in the Lord, that you will think nothing else, but that he troubling you shall bear the judgment, whoever he may be.

(MRC)  I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will have no other mindset, but the one who is stirring up trouble among you will bear his judgment, whoever that would be.

(MSG)  Deep down, the Master has given me confidence that you will not defect. But the one who is upsetting you, whoever he is, will bear the divine judgment.

(New World Translation)  I am confident about YOU who are in union with  [the]  Lord that YOU will not come to think otherwise;  but the one who is causing YOU trouble will bear  [his]  judgment,  no matter who he may be.

(WEB)  I have confidence toward you in the Lord that you will think no other way. But he who troubles you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

(Webster)  I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be no otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whoever he may be.

(WNT)  For my part I have strong confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt my view of the matter. But the man--be he who he may--who is troubling you, will have to bear the full weight of the judgement to be pronounced on him.

(YLT)  I have confidence in regard to you in the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded; and he who is troubling you shall bear the judgment, whoever he may be.


So the conclusion of all this seems to be that all who are baptized are in the new covenant and that some of those in the new covenant will be in the covenant for a kingdom but Jehovah will be the one who decides who they are and possibly not until the time of the end as Christ only new just before his sacrifice that the disciples would be with him ruling in heaven.

Also those who will rule with Christ are as holy as those who will not rule with Christ . There is no differentiation between these two groups .

Also that all Christians should be drinking the wine and eating the bread .

Finally we should all be prepared for the fact that we might die in Christ before we get the benefit of his wonderful promises .

WOW Seraphim!

Did you put together all this research? That is very good!
Perhaps the greatest challenge we have yet ahead of us is as Jesus said 'getting the sense of the Kingdom'. Is the Reign of God or the Kingdom of God really about a group of men ruling over other men in the way we think??

Notice some of the Kingdom language..
"a crown of life"
"Reigning in life"
"septer of righteousness"
"walls of salvation"
"robe of righteousness"

What Kind of King was Jesus when he was here?

How did he rule?

Digging

Honestly, to me, it seems more likely that James and John were asking to be physically placed literally to the left and right of Jesus on the throne. In other words, it doesn't seem that they were simply asking Jesus to allow them into the kingdom of heaven, rather a particular PLACE/STATUS in heaven.

This seems to be backed up by the fact that when "the ten others heard about it, they started to be indignant at James and John" (Mar 10:41). I believe this may also be related to the "heated dispute" that arose "among them over which one of them seemed to be greatest" (Luke 22:24).

I'm only posting this because the reasoning you're using seems flawed in this case and I would like to see this topic fleshed out properly, because I believe it may have merit. Overall, I find the whole "New Covenant/Covenant for a Kingdom" discussion to be interesting and hope you and others will keep up the searching.

Your Brother,
Paranoid :paranoid: (<-- Might as well us it, since it's there, lol!)

Indeed Paranoid searching is what it's all about. It's normally never an air tight case, so critical comments are welcome. I've just got up, so will have a go at an answer later. lol
Digging I like the thought about the kind of king Jesus was when on Earth.

Revelation 1:5 Jesus is the Ruler of the kings of the earth.
Any ideas as to who these kings are? Will all the kings be in heaven?
Just thought I would toss that in the pot.

Christians are to share in the sufferings of Jesus:

"For just as the sufferings for the Christ abound in us, so the comfort we get also abounds through the Christ." - 2 Cor 1:5

We suffer for him just as he suffered for us:

"In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely." - 1 Peter 2:21

Paul links sharing with Jesus in suffering to the prospect of sharing his resurrection:

"so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead." - Phillipians 3:10,11

The cup of wine means sharing in the blood of the Christ, which includes willingness to share in his sufferings:

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of the Christ?" - 1 Cor 10:16

Jesus asks:

Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? - Matthew 20:21

Questions I had about  the New Covenant, with scriptural and Watchtower answers. I highlighted the words I thought most pertinent.

*What is the NC?

   Lk.22:19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
   Heb. 9: 14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?
1Peter 3: . 18 Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.
19 In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.
21 That which corresponds to this is also now saving YOU, namely, baptism, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the request made to God for a good conscience,) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Heb. 9: 14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?
15 So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
   .

*What are the 3 main benefits of being in the NC?

1)  1 Peter 3:21, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the request made to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
2) Heb 9:14 that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?
3)  Ro. 6: . 23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
Math 25:33: 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world

*Who is the mediator of the NC, and the other parties?

  Heb. 9:15 So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance. 1Tim. 2: 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all

Watchtower comments:
Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31- “ Is Jesus the “mediator” only for anointed Christians?
… So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians. …The “great crowd” of “other sheep” that is forming today is not in that new covenant.

Jn. 5: 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life..”
Ro. *: 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons.

Watchtower 1979 November 15 p.27 Benefiting from “One Mediator Between God and Men”
“They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the “chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.”—1 Pet. 2:9.

WT ’03 2/15, 19 Anointed Christians are certain of their heavenly hope, of their having been taken into the new covenant. Jesus mentioned it when he instituted the Memorial and said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.” (Luke 22:20) The parties to the new covenant are God and anointed ones. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 12:22-24) Jesus is the mediator. Made operative by Christ’s shed blood, the new covenant took out not only from the Jews but also from the nations a people for Jehovah’s name and made them part of Abraham’s “seed.”

Gla. 3: 26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.


*Who are the  beneficiaries of the NC, that are instructed by Jesus to keep it in memorial?

Acts 6: 53 Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day

WT ’86 2/15, Thus, according to the context of John 6:53, having “life in yourselves” would here mean entering at last into the very fullness of life. The “little flock” of Kingdom heirs experience this at their resurrection into the heavens. The “other sheep” experience it after the end of the thousand years, when they are tested and declared righteous for everlasting life in the Paradise earth.—1 John 3:2; Revelation 20:4, 5.
14 Others, too, can benefit from the “bread from heaven.” Jesus said of the one that ‘eats his flesh and drinks his blood’ but who dies: “I shall resurrect him at the last day.” It is understood that anointed Christians sleeping in death are raised at the sounding of “the last trumpet,” which takes place during the “manifestation” of Jesus Christ in Kingdom glory

   1Pet3:21 That which corresponds to this is also now saving YOU, namely, baptism, (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the request made to God for a good conscience,) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
  Jn6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone that has heard from the Father (called) and has learned comes to me.
  1Tim2: 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.
  .Jn6: 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day;
55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.”
59 These things he said as he was teaching in public assembly at Ca•per´na•um
   .Jn6: 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.”
Jn6:47 Most truly I say to YOU, He that believes has everlasting life.
John 17: 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge….or, “having knowledge”Jer. 31:31 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant;
32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”
    33 “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.”
  

*Was Judas present when Jesus inaugurated the NC and passed the bread and wine?

LK. 22:19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.



*How numerous are the people  in the NC?

Gen17:3 At this A´bram fell upon his face, and God continued to speak with him, saying: 4 “As for me, look! my covenant is with you, and you will certainly become a father of a crowd of nations.
Heb9:6 For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.
Heb8:6-11 “‘Look! There are days coming,’ says Jehovah, ‘and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in [the] day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, so that I stopped caring for them,’ says Jehovah.”
10 “‘For this is the covenant that I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their mind, and in their hearts I shall write them. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.
11 “‘And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying: “Know Jehovah!” For they will all know me, from [the] least one to [the] greatest one of them.



*How do the following scriptures show that the number in the N C are more numerous then those in the Old Law Covenant to Moses?

  Gen. 26: 3 …and I will carry out the sworn statement that I swore to Abraham your father, 4 ‘And I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens
  Math. 20: 28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”

Gla.4:22…. it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si´nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha´gar. 25 Now this Ha´gar means Si´nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman (Sarah) who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman (Sarah) are more numerous than [those] of her (Hagar) who has the husband.” 28 Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the same as Isaac was.
.

*What is the Kingdom Covenant Jesus also inaugurates  in Luke Ch 22, that has no mediator?

28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

* How many are in the Kingdom Covenant?

W T comments, gt, pg, 115 states,
“Despite their imperfections, the apostles have stuck with Jesus during his trials. So he says: “I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” This personal covenant between Jesus and his loyal followers joins them to him to share his royal dominion. Only a limited number of 144,000 are finally taken into this covenant for a Kingdom.”

*Are there  2  covenants in Luke ch.22, or 1?

  Rom. 9: 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises;


*What will be the purpose of the Kingdom Covenant?


Lk. 22;30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev.20:6, . 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

*Was Judas present when Jesus spoke of the KC ?

No, he was dismissed by this time.




*Where do these kings and priests come from?

Rev. 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: Abraham’s seed (12K from each)29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.


*Who are the Sons of Israel?

Ro. 2: 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.
Gla. 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation [is something]. 16 And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God. .
Rom, 8:14 For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. 15 For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.
Gla.,4: 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons.
6 Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!”

*When will those in the Kingdom Covenant  be sealed (chosen) out of the sons and  be anointed as Kings, , members of the Heavenly little flock?

  Math.24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.  (1 Thes. 4:16 describes this)
  1Thes. 4: 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.  Rev 11:15 – The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: 'The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.'
Rev 20:6 – "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years."
Rev. 7: 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sun rising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand,

*Can anyone  at this time, claim to be a sealed member of the 144,000, little flock ?

1Cor. 15: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Phip. 3: 12 Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having laid hold on [it]; but there is one thing about it: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead,
14 I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.
   Gla.4: 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons…

Watchtower comment on Gla. 4:5:
It 1 pg. 54;…… . Through purchase by means of Christ Jesus, they receive the adoption as sons and also become heirs with Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. (Ga 4:1-7; Ro 8:14-17) They do not come by such son ship naturally but by God’s choice and according to his will. (Eph 1:5) While acknowledged as God’s children, or sons, from the time of God’s begetting them by his spirit (1Jo 3:1; Joh 1:12, 13), their full realization of this privilege as spirit sons of God is dependent on their ultimate faithfulness. (Ro 8:17; Re 21:7) Thus, Paul speaks of them as “earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.”—Ro 8:23.
Ro. 8: . 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons.
Math. 22: 14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen

* In 1 Thes. 4:17, did Paul mean that the future “adoption as spirit sons” of these ones  would be a single event in time?

   1 thes. 4”\:14 For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede (be resurrected before) those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s
trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, and at the same time, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. ….NWT Ref. Bi. Footnote
   1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
   Rev.7: 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

*In what sense can Christians be anointed, if the sealing is yet future?

Youngs concordance on “anointed”; In Hebrew, there are 4 different words for the  word "anoint", also in Greek there are four words. Also in Hebrew, there are two words for "anointed" and three words for "anointing". In all cases "anoint" means a pouring out or rubbing on of something, usually oil. Sometimes this is for practical purposes, and more importantly for the ceremonial purpose of inaugurating a king, priest or a prophet. WT comments on these two meanings of anointing:
...it 1 113.
"The Bible often uses the Hebrew sukh and the Greek a•lei´pho for the commonplace greasing, or rubbing on of oil. (Da 10:3; Ru 3:3; Joh 11:2) But for a special anointing with oil, it generally uses the Hebrew word ma•shach´, from which the word ma•shi´ach (Messiah) comes, and the Greek word khri´o, from which comes khri•stos´ (Christ). (Ex 30:30; Le 4:5, ftn; Lu 4:18; Ac 4:26) This distinction is maintained quite consistently both in the Hebrew and in the Greek. Some versions of the Bible do not maintain this fine distinction but translate all such words by the one term “anoint.”
In this discussion, we are interested with the meaning of anointing with Holy Spirit, "spirit anointed", as it applies to the little flock.
In the Greek scriptures, the pouring out of HS has two applications, as with the case of oil anointing.
In one sense, people can be "spirit anointed" to positions of authority, as kings and priests.
In a second sense, HS can be poured out (an anointing) on people for the purpose of giving them special power.
  Acts 1:8 but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU,
  Acts 2:, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams;
  Acts 10: 45 And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed, because the free gift of the holy spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations. 46 For they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God. Then Peter responded: 47 “Can anyone forbid water so that these might not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?”

WT comments on this type of pouring out of HS:

"92 WT 2/1 20, what a powerful force this spirit is! But how can Christians today avail themselves of it? First, Jesus said we should ask for it, so why not do just that? Pray to Jehovah to give you this wonderful gift not only in times of stress but on every occasion. In addition, read the Bible so that Holy Spirit can speak to you.
Wt 06 11/15 pg. 22, ..Pray for Holy Spirit, allow it to lead you.

*Was Jesus’ anointing for this purpose, or was he anointed as a king and priest?

  Heb. 1: 8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners


   it-1 pg 114; (concerning Jesus anointing)… Fulfilling many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures, Jesus of Nazareth proved to be the Anointed One of Jehovah and could properly be called Messiah, or Christ, which titles convey that thought. (Mt 1:16; Heb 1:8, 9) Instead of being anointed with literal oil, he was anointed with Jehovah’s spirit. (Mt 3:16) This was Jehovah’s appointment of him as King, Prophet, and High Priest, and so he was referred to as Jehovah’s Anointed. (Ps 2:2; Ac 3:20-26; 4:26, 27; Heb 5:5, 6) In his hometown of Nazareth, Jesus acknowledged this anointing when he applied to himself the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1, where the phrase appears: “Jehovah has anointed me.” (Lu 4:18) Jesus Christ is the only one in the Scriptures who holds an anointing to all three offices: prophet, high priest, and king. Jesus was anointed with “the oil of exultation more than [his] partners” (the other kings of the line of David). This was by reason of his receiving the anointing directly from Jehovah himself, not with oil but with holy spirit, not to an earthly kingship but to a heavenly one combined with the office of heavenly High Priest.—Heb 1:9;


*At what point in time , do the 144000 become spirit anointed to be Kings and priests?


  1 Cor. 15: 50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up Incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.

*When is the last trumpet?

Rev. 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

hello my new friends!

Sorry I have not replied sooner I was moving and thus off line for a few weeks.

First I wish to talk a bit more about trying to learn about the Kingdom by looking to Jesus. Notice Col 2:2

"My goal is that they will be encouraged and knit together by strong ties of love. I want them to have full confidence because they have complete understanding of God's secret plan, which is Christ himself.

Col 2:3 In him lie hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

But notice it says Lies hidden in him, hmmmm

This has become a touch stone scripture for me! ALL the treasure of what we so want to have, wisdom and knowledge of God's secret plan!!!

So now what kind of King was he? He said he 'conquered the world', and then they killed him.....I asked myself was he a phyical king, striped naked and killed....??? Did he do anything that phyical kings do?? Did he fight, have an army, was he rich, have lots of servants beautiful clothes?? Isn't that why the Jews rejected him, because he did not come to be a phycial king??

So then he was a spiritual King.....
And the big question is what does that mean........
Was he not rich in faith? He says in rev 2:16 "...I will make WAR against them with the sword of my mouth."
The most important point for me is the scripture said john 19:19 "...THE KING OF THE JEWS." it spock in the PRESENT, not saying going to become the King.... the reason this is important to me is because many are taught to think to be a King in the future Kingdom will be some how also be phycial.... I'm not saying there will not be blessing.....but why think these furture Kings would be any different from the King whom they follow after?

There is one more point I'd like to reply to from Man hu. Who are the kings mentioned in rev 1:5.
I believe all the righteous, a righteous lover of God is a spiritual king. That is why in Rev 22:5 it can say they will reign forever and ever. It's not talking about them reign over others, but rather over themselves. Man is ment to be the highest on this planet.....

Love to hear what you think!

Digging

To say that Our Lord Jesus is to rule over the worldly Kings of the earth would make no sense.  Why?  Dose not Ps 1:1,6 indicate the kings of the earth would take their stand against Jesus.
Ps 1: 2 “ The Kings of the earth take their stand” and high officials themselves massed together as one”

So pardon the pun lets rule them out.  If its not they then who could it be?   Well we know that Jesus said that those in the covenant for a Kingdom were going to rule with him.   They were going to be KINGS.  So it would be reasonable to say, Jesus would rule over these kings.   So all those anointed ones in the covenant for a kingdom cheerfully submit to their Lord.  Would the Satan’s Kings submit to Jesus? NO,