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Robert King has written a review of “Captives of a Concept”.

http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/capti...ncept.html

One point he makes is,

“The Watchtower Society similarly came into existence to minister to a congregation of anointed Christians. And it can be argued that the more recent formation of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has brought into existence an organ that has functioned in a similar manner as the first century apostolic body in issuing written edicts and exhortations comparable to the apostles’ ruling to abstain from fornication, blood and idolatry. Thus, once again there is an identifiable faithful steward and an organization of domestics whom the slave is charged to feed.”

Question ... How regularly did the first century apostolic body convene and issue written edicts?

I’m still having trouble with the word “organization” as its being employed. :thinking: :confused:

Measurer. :hibye:

I don't mind Robert disagreeing with Mr. Cameron, and stating his scriptural basis for so doing.

But, Robert really seems to be wholly incapable of refraining from personal attacks. I remember when I first joined the e-Watchman board. He struck me as one of the most overly emotional men I have ever read.

Justicia

Hi ISO,

Confusing indeed. :confused:

Just one point ... Robert may have been disfellowshipped from the “Society”, but he certainly retains the WTBTS’s belief in the two-tier system. I’m never really sure who it is they see as being “Jehovah’s people”.

Is it the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, or maybe those they regard as being the remnant of the “anointed” (approx. 8000), or possibly the 6 million or so baptized witnesses?

It seems to be interchangeable depending on the point they are trying to make. :dontknow: :scratchhead:

Measurer.

Hi Measurer

(to stir the pot a bit...for what it's worth)

Here is more:

"But on the question of whether the Watchtower Society is fulfilling the mandate of the master to provide food at the proper time, the evidence strongly suggests that they are. And that evidence is provided by Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves due to the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses have demonstrated in many different ways that they have been spiritually nourished and strengthened to accomplish the master’s will.

For instance, it is the master’s will that his slaves preach the kingdom and teach spiritually responsive persons how to do God’s will. Have Jehovah’s Witnesses done that? Yes, absolutely. Only the most perverse liar would deny the facts.

Another example: The master’s will is that his slaves be no part of this world. Do Jehovah’s Witnesses give evidence that they are doing the will of the master in that respect? Again, the evidence is abundant that Jehovah’s Witnesses are set apart from the peoples of this system –religiously, socially and politically."


What is "the master's will"? Teach (preaching work) that being baptized into the WBT Society "spirit directed" organization is the good news of God's kingdom, thus the means of surviving Armageddon?

Is calling ones with a different view "perverse liar" appropriate?

Are Jehovah's Witnesses set apart or more the same as other corrupt religions than ever before? (voluntary association to the United Nations, OSCE, abuse problems etc.)

It seems Robert King has and is changing his tune.

What is troubling is Robert Kings negative remarks about Don Camerons reference to our Master Jesus Christ.


"Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

May YHWH be praised for drawing sheep to the Shepherd...

"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him;" John 6:44

Pray for Robert King.

Christian love to seekers of/for truth

gogh

Hi, gogh! I was just about to post when I saw yours here. I was going to use the first paragraph of what you selected, so I still am going to do so:

But on the question of whether the Watchtower Society is fulfilling the mandate of the master to provide food at the proper time, the evidence strongly suggests that they are. And that evidence is provided by Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves due to the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses have demonstrated in many different ways that they have been spiritually nourished and strengthened to accomplish the master’s will.

Is this the same "food" that Robert gleefully called "filthy vomit," over and over again? :confused:

(See his essay, "The tables are full of filthy vomit.")

watchman speak with fork-ed tongue.

And, oh yeah, gogh, we sure don't want any of that "Jesus stuff," now do we? :shocked:

~~~~~~~~~~

To DonC: If you decide to do a point-by-point response to him, I can't wait to read it. ;)

Isomam,

I just read e-Watchman's review. Kind of depressing. But when he mentions Ray Franz and me in the same breath - I don't feel quite so bad.

I'll try to comment on some of what he said, but first - here is a letter I just received today from someone else who read the book who has a little different opinion about it...
______________
"Dear Don,

"This is l-o-n-g overdue, please forgive me. I read your book and I am so grateful that you have written it. This book is just the tool that I need to try to explain to others, family members particularly, that they are enslaved. Not to Jesus Christ or Jehovah but to the organization.

"You have provided the proof from their literature of each of the points that you make, this is priceless. I believe that I have read that it took you 20 years to write this book and if this is true, I can certainly understand why! This book of yours is going to be so very helpful to me and I can't thank you enough for putting it all together.

"Of course L. & I have been years in coming to this place so we accepted it eagerly and feel that we're beginning to find a community of like minded Christians. And that is a beautiful thing as we have searched for so long.

"Your marvelous book is a treasure and I will read it and reread it over and over, now I will be able to prove by their own writings what sort of shepherds they truly are.

"It was never clear to me about the faithful and discreet slave before I was baptized and looking back now I can see that one of the elders who gave me my pre-baptism questions realized that there was a problem. His part of the questions had to do with that subject and when he spoke with the other one who gave me questions he wanted to delay my baptism. I would give a lot to be able to speak to him today and tell him that he was right, I didn't understand it then and I don't believe it NOW!

"Again, thank you so very much. That seems lame when I consider how valuable this is to me and the benefit that I hope to attain with it's contents. May our Father continue to bless you and the work that you're doing. You're "Heaven Sent" my brother." - M.S.
_______________

I feel better...

I'll work on some comments about e-Watchman's thoughts.

Don C

well Don Cameron :hibye: I certainly can understand why someone would write you such a beautiful letter of appreciation. You have a real gift of speaking to the heart of another--perhaps speaking what is in Their heart and like a light it helps them understand their own emotions. I read the piece of Robert King and my own heart sank for you as it was so cold and disparaging. I found it to be sad but I know you will simply shake it off and leave it 'over there'--it is hard not to take things personally but that is a rule I have been trying to follow as one never really knows the motives of another--and it doesn't matter what he/they think--I hear the truth of your truth and know it so well to be my own in so many ways--we all do--many, many more than realize it are Captive To A Concept Don--I know you know that also--you have a light that is shining brightly and it will be a blessing for many more---(I like that Come To Jesus Approach also ;) ) in Christian Love--Wolfie :love:

Comments about e-Watchman's Review
of Captives of a Concept

e-Watchman"The basic premise of the book is that the Watchtower Society cannot be Jehovah’s organization for the simple reason that it can be reasoned out that Jesus did not appoint a faithful and discreet slave over all of his belongings in 1919, as the Watchtower teaches and as Jehovah’s Witnesses commonly believe."

Don: That sounds about right. Notice that he agrees that this is what the Watchtower teaches. In other words, according to the Society’s own teaching, the only way it can be Jehovah’s “faithful and discreet” slave organization today is if they had received the appointment mentioned in Matthew 24:47 in 1919.

e-Watchman: "(Cameron) is captive to the concept that the Watchtower Society’s authority depends upon its having been approved and appointed by Christ in 1919…”

Don: It is not according to me that “the Watchtower Society’s’ authority depends upon is having been approved and appointed by Christ in 1919.” It is according to the Society’s own teaching. That’s what they teach. It is their interpretation Matthew 24:45-47 that I deal with in the book, not mine or anyone else’s.

And I explain in the book that it is not necessary to agree or disagree with their interpretation but only to understand it and then hold them to it while examining their history to see if they agree with each other. According to the Society (not me) they have to agree in order for the Society to even have a chance of being God’s organization today. If their interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 doesn’t line up with anything that went on in their history it means that, according to them, the Society has never been God’s organization.

It is exactly as e-Watchman acknowledges when he said, “That is what the Watchtower Society officially teaches.”

But he then goes on to explain that he doesn’t agree with the Society's interpretation of the identity of “the faithful and discreet slave.” He said that Society’s way of identifying Jesus’ “slave” “is not the scriptural criteria for establishing the identity of the faithful and discreet slave.”

But again, for the purpose of my book, it doesn’t matter what the Scriptural criteria is. It is only necessary to understand the Society’s criteria – and then hold them to it.

e-Watchman: “What is most telling about Captives of a Concept, and hence its author, is its noticeable lack of spiritual depth.

Don: I don’t know what he means. It is true that I don’t get preachy or emotional. Perhaps I tend to get a bit too technical? He would need to explain that one.

e-Watchman: “Cameron has no detectable faith –although in conclusion he fecklessly recommends a ‘come-to-Jesus’ approach to spirituality.”

Don: I wonder what’s so wrong with doing what Peter did – John 6:68

e-Watchman: He conspicuously avoids using the name “Jehovah” except in quotation, which is also quite telling.

Don: I hadn't noticed that. I wonder what that tells?

e-Watchman: “He is blatant in stating that the purpose and intent of his book is to persuade Jehovah’s Witnesses that the Watchtower Society is not Jehovah’s organization.

Don: I don't recall being blatant. But it is true that I would like to help Witnesses discover that the Society has never been Jehovah's organization. From my experience, Witnesses who do discover this are grateful for whatever help they received to help them discover it.

e-Watchman: “He even bemoans the fact that the vast majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses will never read his book because of their heeding the Watchtower’s admonition to avoid exposure to apostate literature.”

Don: I don’t recall where I ‘bemoaned.’ But it does seem likely that he is correct. The majority of Witnesses will never read my book because of heeding the Governing Body’s admonition to avoid exposure to (so-called) apostate literature.

e-Watchman: "In that respect Cameron is like his mentor, Ray Franz; who fits the profile outlined in the Scriptures, where it says in Jude: 'These are the ones that make separations, animalistic men, not having spirituality.'”

Don: Wow! How can anyone read Raymond Franz’s books and see him making separations, or that he is an animalistic man, or that he does not have spirituality? - Again, Wow! I sure don’t mind being named in the same sentence with Ray.

e-Watchman: Although there is no question the Watchtower Society has placed numerous stumbling blocks on the path, a person “not having spirituality” has no capacity or desire to surmount the stumbling blocks with which they are confronted. Instead, the animalistic person seeks to exploit the stumbling blocks to cause as many others as possible to stumble from the path.”

Don: If that means that I’m trying to help Witnesses come to realize what has happened to them, then I’m guilty.

e-Watchman: It is also noteworthy that the very expression “captives of a concept” suggests that Jehovah’s Witnesses are in need of being set free from captivity."

Don: That’s the way I feel. And I have received letters from others who feel the same way. i.e. that we have escaped from the illusionary concept that had held us captive by controlling our decision-making process without us realizing it.

e-Watchman: Like Franz, with his tempting offer of “Christian freedom,” Cameron apparently fancies himself as a liberator of poor misguided Watchtower slaves too.

Don: I don’t think of myself as a liberator but only as someone bwho has some information that I think may be helpful to some Witnesses who are struggling with what they see going on and are trying to find answers that will help them see what it all means.

e-Watchman: “He claims to have a grasp of reality while Jehovah’s Witnesses are in the grip of an illusion.”

Don: True. I now think that all those years I believed that the Society was God's organization I was “in the grip of an illusion.” I now feel that the Watchtower's "spirit-directed faithful and discreet slave class organization" is just an illusion that exists only in the minds of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Note: From here on e-Watchman goes on to a lengthy explanation of his personal interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47 and the identify of Jesus’ “faithful and discreet slave.” I have no comments about his understanding in this matter.

Don

P.S.Captives of a Concept does not use what I believe to prove that the Watchtower Society is not God's organization. It does not even use the Bible to prove that it is not God's organization. Rather, it uses the Watchtower Society to prove that the Watchtower Society is not God's organization.

Sounds like military re-education camp where old ideas and identities are torn down and new ones put in their place, even if the new ideas are the same ones that were torn down. Causes cognitive dissonance for the purpose of maintaining control. :funnyface: Hello Jim Jones

Hi Wolfie,

Thank you for your kind remarks.

Don

p.s.--your book will help many witnesses Don--it will be there for those who are ready and when the time is right--for them. I truly believe it works that way-- :hibye:

surely Caroll, Dons book will help to recognize what is wrong with the WT.


but does it help in finding the solution? I dont think so.

I think that JWs are gods people, but at present time abused by the tower.

Finally Jehovah will use Gog to purify the true worship. We are on the verge of change.
tomorrow 40 years ago the 6-day-war in Palestine began. And the problems rose day by day.
I think soon there will be a plain desk. and the NWO will come out of the pit.

I am sure that then the nations will be shaken and that the best out of the nations will come to the mountain of Jehovah.

Maybe that then the harlot will ride the beast and the call to leave Babylon the Great goes out then. It will be no long time. We will see.

The WT teaches many things that are today to be recognized as wrong. But they are busy in feeding, while other churches teach the kingdom within your heart.

Gods Kingdom is a fact and it will fullfill Dan 2:44.

cordially Greetings

George