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Hi, just thought I'd post this link to a page that has a lot of excellent articles and resources that are adapted from Charles Taze Russell's writings.

http://reslight.net/prints/index.html

The writer of the articles is Ronald Day, an elderly Bible Student who departs from Russell on some things.

The website is very good for ex-JW's who still believe the Watchtower's basic doctrines, but are offended and stumbled by other things taught by JW's. It is non-trinitarian, non-immortal soul, non-hellfire, teaches an earthly destiny for most of mankind, etc, but does not slavishly follow Charles Taze Russell's interpretations, offering a fresh perspective on some things.

There is especially a good article on Armageddon, which appears to reconcile very nicely how many scriptures point to a global destruction at Armageddon and yet we cannot comprehend how a God of love would kill billions of ignorant mankind eternally.

warm regards
Scattered Sheep
http://reslight.net/differences.html

For those who are interested.

freyd Wrote:
http://reslight.net/differences.html

For those who are interested.





We differ with Brother Russell concerning who make up the great multitude of Revelation 7, nor do we agree that the 144,000 are the 12 tribes of Israel spoken of there. (The 144,000 are sealed out of [Greek, ek] the 12 tribes, they are not the total sum of the 12 tribes.) This makes three saved classes referred to in Revelation 7, not two: (1) the twelve tribes of Israel: justified spiritual Israelites, sons and heirs of God who have not necessarily been sealed as one of the 144,000 joint-heirs. (2) the 144,000: joint-heirs with Christ who have been sealed out of the heirs so that they become more than heirs: joint-heirs with Christ. (3) The great multitude, late consecrators here in the end of the age, babes in Christ, who come out of the great tribulaton as an earthly class.

[b]This is great - thats the conclusion I come to as well from reading those scriptures in Revelation and comparing them to the "type" the nation of Isreal - they were all God's People but a group were taken out to be Priests

I know the wts teaches the elders will become the princes who are the visible representatives of Jesus' kingdom here on earth - which may be true - although the elders seem to practicing Idolatry of an Organization at this time- but maybe these ones are actually spiritual Isrealites as pictured in REvelation
[/b]

Ronald is an excellent researcher and takes a very balanced approach to systematic theology. Many Witnesses, BSA and others are coming to similar conclusions in their studies.

designs


billy Wrote:

freyd Wrote:
http://reslight.net/differences.html

For those who are interested.





We differ with Brother Russell concerning who make up the great multitude of Revelation 7, nor do we agree that the 144,000 are the 12 tribes of Israel spoken of there. (The 144,000 are sealed out of [Greek, ek] the 12 tribes, they are not the total sum of the 12 tribes.) This makes three saved classes referred to in Revelation 7, not two: (1) the twelve tribes of Israel: justified spiritual Israelites, sons and heirs of God who have not necessarily been sealed as one of the 144,000 joint-heirs. (2) the 144,000: joint-heirs with Christ who have been sealed out of the heirs so that they become more than heirs: joint-heirs with Christ. (3) The great multitude, late consecrators here in the end of the age, babes in Christ, who come out of the great tribulaton as an earthly class.

[b]This is great - thats the conclusion I come to as well from reading those scriptures in Revelation and comparing them to the "type" the nation of Isreal - they were all God's People but a group were taken out to be Priests

I know the wts teaches the elders will become the princes who are the visible representatives of Jesus' kingdom here on earth - which may be true - although the elders seem to practicing Idolatry of an Organization at this time- but maybe these ones are actually spiritual Isrealites as pictured in REvelation
[/b]

Quote:
We differ with Brother Russell concerning who make up the great multitude of Revelation 7, nor do we agree that the 144,000 are the 12 tribes of Israel spoken of there. (The 144,000 are sealed out of [Greek, ek] the 12 tribes, they are not the total sum of the 12 tribes.) This makes three saved classes referred to in Revelation 7, not two: (1) the twelve tribes of Israel: justified spiritual Israelites, sons and heirs of God who have not necessarily been sealed as one of the 144,000 joint-heirs. (2) the 144,000: joint-heirs with Christ who have been sealed out of the heirs so that they become more than heirs: joint-heirs with Christ. (3) The great multitude, late consecrators here in the end of the age, babes in Christ, who come out of the great tribulaton as an earthly class.


I'm not so sure that Bro Russell is being properly represented in regard to his teachings on the 12 tribes... he stated that the entire 144,000 were intended to be taken out of the 12 tribes of Israel... but it is apparant from NT studies that Israel at large rejected their savior and thus were cast off and the call was turned to the Gentiles... Watch Tower Reprints page 5231; 5532; 4732; 3528; 3026 He taught not that they were the 12 tribes, but that they were of the 12 antitypical tribes...

Had there been tens of thousands of faithful ones in Israel at the time of the first advent things would have gone much differently. He taught that the gentiles for for the most part filled up these places, however the call was never closed to Jews as individuals. R3586 as well as the pages cited above show this.

He also stated or showed that in another vein of thought that the 12 tribes of Israel type the 12 tribes of Spiritual Israel... so that symbolically speaking the little flock class would be (in a figurative picture) of these 12 antitypical tribes... but not all of the tribes... in actuality, the priests of Israel all came from the tribe of Levi...

Additionally, in some places the 12 tribes of the old testament type the 12 main denominations of Christendom...(as well as do the 12 sons of Ishmael)... you will note that in the Tabernacle picture the LF is shown as the priesthood in the court and in the tent... Aaron and his 4 sons (2 of which were unfaithful and were destroyed). The other levites in the court were servants to the priests and assisted them in their work... outside the "fence" or curtains around the court was the nation of Israel camped in their 12 tribes... 3 tribes on each side... while the priests of Israel were all taken from the tribe of Levi... as to the Little Flock, they were taken from the 12 denominations during the Gospel Age... for there was a time in each one of them when they had the truth that was due at the time...

As Rev 7 shows the 144,000 are taken from the tribes (antitypcal tribes) of Israel... it is clear in the Scripture that the 12 groups of 12000 are ALL the 144,000... but that they were taken out of all of the tribes (all denominations as to gentiles and all tribes as to Jews)... but they were not all there was as to the tribes... not all were chosen... in fact "many are called , but few are chosen"... The next class discussed (the great multitude) were those called but NOT chosen... Rutherford created them as an "earthly class"... Ron Day is following his lead.

I know this is an old thread, and I'm bad about "resurrecting" older topics like this one, but I did want to make a couple of comments on it if that's ok.

I have enjoyed the articles and studies on reslight for the last few years. Many of them agree with the conclusions I came to in my personal research before I "faded" from the organization.

One thing about Israel being "cast off". The Society has said this many times, especially after around 1930 when they began dropping C.T. Russell's understanding that natural Israel/fleshly Jews would be saved by Christ... there is a verse that is ignored wholesale.

The apostle Paul says that God did not cast off his people. (Romans 11:1,2) Here Paul mentions Elijah. Elijah lived before the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. Elijah was praying concerning the Jews at his time. Paul goes on to say in vs. 26 that "He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; and this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (American Standard Version, published by WTS). This clearly shows that there is hope for Israel and that Jehovah has not "cast off his people. God forbid."

I just wanted to share this.
Jonalfred,

I wouldn't classify brother Day as following Joseph Rutherford's lead.
Brother Day is a fine independent researcher and draws his conclusions carefully after much research and prayer.

It should be noted that most Protestant Denominations and the Catholic Church all officially believe that the members of the Body of Christ or the 'Church' will enjoy eternity here on earth along with repentant humankind. They all believe that the members of the Bride will return to this earth and work with Jesus in the great 'restoration'.
So brother Day's view on the Great Crowd of Christians living on earth fits in with some wide spread held beliefs on the future.

In Christ

designs
http://www.cmfellowship.org

jonalfred Wrote:

Quote:
We differ with Brother Russell concerning who make up the great multitude of Revelation 7, nor do we agree that the 144,000 are the 12 tribes of Israel spoken of there. (The 144,000 are sealed out of [Greek, ek] the 12 tribes, they are not the total sum of the 12 tribes.) This makes three saved classes referred to in Revelation 7, not two: (1) the twelve tribes of Israel: justified spiritual Israelites, sons and heirs of God who have not necessarily been sealed as one of the 144,000 joint-heirs. (2) the 144,000: joint-heirs with Christ who have been sealed out of the heirs so that they become more than heirs: joint-heirs with Christ. (3) The great multitude, late consecrators here in the end of the age, babes in Christ, who come out of the great tribulaton as an earthly class.


I'm not so sure that Bro Russell is being properly represented in regard to his teachings on the 12 tribes... he stated that the entire 144,000 were intended to be taken out of the 12 tribes of Israel... but it is apparant from NT studies that Israel at large rejected their savior and thus were cast off and the call was turned to the Gentiles... Watch Tower Reprints page 5231; 5532; 4732; 3528; 3026 He taught not that they were the 12 tribes, but that they were of the 12 antitypical tribes...

Had there been tens of thousands of faithful ones in Israel at the time of the first advent things would have gone much differently. He taught that the gentiles for for the most part filled up these places, however the call was never closed to Jews as individuals. R3586 as well as the pages cited above show this.

He also stated or showed that in another vein of thought that the 12 tribes of Israel type the 12 tribes of Spiritual Israel... so that symbolically speaking the little flock class would be (in a figurative picture) of these 12 antitypical tribes... but not all of the tribes... in actuality, the priests of Israel all came from the tribe of Levi...

Additionally, in some places the 12 tribes of the old testament type the 12 main denominations of Christendom...(as well as do the 12 sons of Ishmael)... you will note that in the Tabernacle picture the LF is shown as the priesthood in the court and in the tent... Aaron and his 4 sons (2 of which were unfaithful and were destroyed). The other levites in the court were servants to the priests and assisted them in their work... outside the "fence" or curtains around the court was the nation of Israel camped in their 12 tribes... 3 tribes on each side... while the priests of Israel were all taken from the tribe of Levi... as to the Little Flock, they were taken from the 12 denominations during the Gospel Age... for there was a time in each one of them when they had the truth that was due at the time...

As Rev 7 shows the 144,000 are taken from the tribes (antitypcal tribes) of Israel... it is clear in the Scripture that the 12 groups of 12000 are ALL the 144,000... but that they were taken out of all of the tribes (all denominations as to gentiles and all tribes as to Jews)... but they were not all there was as to the tribes... not all were chosen... in fact "many are called , but few are chosen"... The next class discussed (the great multitude) were those called but NOT chosen... Rutherford created them as an "earthly class"... Ron Day is following his lead.

Quote:
"Although we are in general agreement with Brother Russell's presentation of the divine plan and the atonement, we do not agree with Russell's "application of every scripture." - RRD 5/5/2002


I don't believe that Br. Russell himself would have desired anyone agree with his "application of every scripture." He constantly emphasized the fact that one must PROVE for themselves what truth is.

With that said, in quickly scanning through his material, I found some of his conclusions worthy of further consideration, but I wouldn't agree with RRD's "application of every scripture" either.

"Prove everything." (1Th 5:21). Read

John Wrote:
I don't believe that Br. Russell himself would have desired anyone agree with his "application of every scripture." He constantly emphasized the fact that one must PROVE for themselves what truth is.

With that said, in quickly scanning through his material, I found some of his conclusions worthy of further consideration, but I wouldn't agree with RRD's "application of every scripture" either.

"Prove everything." (1Th 5:21). Read


True. Russell often said that if someone found something they felt didn't agree with the Scriptures, to take the Scriptures first and remove the other. I agree very much with what I have been re-reading of C.T. Russell's writings, but I have found some areas that I can't reconcile with the Bible and modern research.

I began reading Russell's materials when I was a kid and his Studies in the Scriptures were available from the Society back then, up until the 1960's or so when they finally ran out of stock for congregations. I think they officially stopped publishing them in the 1920's. Anyway, I had put them down for a while and began re-reading them a couple of years ago along with some of the modern Bible Student related publications. It's refreshing but one still needs to keep a copy of the Bible in hand.

I am grateful to Bible Students who have continued to publish Russell's and others' writings for so many years now. Read

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