Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks,
May you be filled with His spirit!

One of our members seem to be in distress and need your upbuilding thoughts. I´m posting her concerns below and would appreciate your comment on it so that we all may offer comfort to her.

your brother and Friend,

AlienResident



I am struggling once again with society guidance (principles?) vs what I choose based on my own conscience. As in times past, it has to do with my choice of entertainment. There was a statement made during out WT study yesterday by a new elder assigned to our congregation - fresh from Bethel. He stated that if a Bethel brother was found with an "R" rated video, he was immediately sent out of Bethel.

I have videos or have rented videos that have an R rating. I watch them because of more important messages/accounts that they have to convey. An example - really extreme - would be To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything Julie Newmar. It is a story of 3 transvestites and their relationships as HUMAN BEINGS with others. It's the basic principles of love and forgiveness and understanding of others' situations that draw me to this movie. I also learned from a pioneer sister today that even PG-13s are in some cases just R movies in disguise. I had mentioned Dragonfly and it took me hours to realize that the only two things that might classify it PG-13 are the children's oncology ward and the semi-nudity of natives in a Peruvian village. It does not taint the beauty of the story...not to me.

I love music with a beat...it ranges from Fat Boy Slim to James Asher and AfroCelt.

If all I'm allowed to watch is the Discover Channel and certain Disney cartoons and all I'm allowed to listen to is classical music, perhaps I need to disassociate myself.

When I discussed the R films with a sister after the meeting yesterday, all she'd respond was "be careful." Have I bumped into yet another situation where now that I'm a JW I have no right to question? Just swallow it whole and say nothing?

To imagine not being able to go in the ministry makes me cry. I am really torn and really miserable right now.

I'm sure no one here or on the other board are interested or care...just need to vent.

Thanks.

Well unfortunately this is one prime area where the Society has favoured the use of rules and law over the development of personal conscience.  (It doesn't work because we begin to rely on a non-Christian rating system to regulate what we as Christian will view.   The standards aren't always the same.)

The Society considers Bethel to be a family arrangement and as a family they believe that they have the right to make rules that should be followed by Bethel family members just as a parent will make certain rules for children living in their household.   In Bethel these rules cover all asbects of family life and this includes certain types of music and R-rated movies.   I know when a friend of mine applied for Bethel the application specifically asked about if he had watched any R-rated movies.  (He listed Schindeler's List and Saving Private Ryan, and was still accepted by Bethel.)

Since Bethel is considered to be the ideal standard for all families of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide these regulations may trickle down to the congregational level. But this will vary from congregation to congregation.  I know of some congregations where R-rated movies and hip-hop music are no big deal and I know others that take those things very, very seriously.  Also since each country has a unique rating system what a Canadian can safely watch will be different than an America.

In principle, we may have the right to view or listen to whatever we wish; but, we must take into consideration the consciences of others who may be weak.  So if you do choose to observe certain forms of entertainment in the privacy of your home then for the sake of others it might be better to use discretion and not to discuss it.

Dissassociation is certainly an option but it seems to be a big reaction to a small problem.   Lack of freedom in certain areas is the price that one must pay to be involved in a religion.  

I know these rules and regulations can load us down, just as the Pharisees and Scribes loaded down those in Jesus day.  Jesus came to free us from this kind of bondange and he invites us to take his yoke, or teaching, which in contrast is light.    Later Paul contrasts those who walk under law and those which walk under spirit.    Walking by the spirit (which prods our conscience) is definately better.  It covers all of lives and not just the narrow letter of the law.  As we learn to walk by the Spirit we will also grow in our relationship with Heaven.   It's such a wonderful growth process and one I'm happy to be a part of!!

For a number of years as a JW I wouldnt touch an R movie.  I noticed how JW's would say yes to PG-13's, no to R's, when the difference between the two may be as little as one spoken word without any consideration of context.

I have a number of rated "R" movies; however, they are all within a historical context:  Kingdom of Heaven, Troy, etc...


This really isn't about movies at all; or music or anything else.

Its about a religion dictating rules to people.  Really, its about a religion trying to cleanse the outside of the cup, and keep it as shinny as possible, when really the inside is totaly dark because, bottom-line, they do not have Jesus Christ, his freedom in Love and the Law of Liberty.

They never will have this freedom, nor will any who follow them.

My advice:  put away all the literature.  Put it all away.  Forget about movies, music, etc.  Pick up a New King James, or an NIV, and read Galatians about 5 times.  Get the NIV on disc, or even the KJV (read by James Earl Jones, no less), burn Galatians to a cd, and listen to it over and over and over.

This book is in reference to not following the Mosiac law and following Christ.  However, the more you listen, what crystalizes is that in a greater sense Paul is reffering to any imposed rules or religious law that exists outside the love of Christ.

I really do care deeply about things like this, because many dont realize how much this affects JWs when they hear things like this.  Because all of a sudden, its as if God cannot be pleased with you unless you are just like people at Bethel, or like a Pioneer, or whatever it is that the WT is holding high at the moment.

Ridiculous.

Galatians is the start in realizing a separation from the rules and regulations of any religrous system.

God bless you in your efforts;


:heartbeat:


prop---FREEDOM---min

Poor guy! A wet behind the ears person straight from an institution who hasn't got a clue about life.
Unless he faces reality in small increments he may well face a mighty downfall. He certainly doesn't know about the real world.
Unfortunately he has been put in a position for which he has no qualification apart from a service card.
Is he wise, circumspect, able to understand the many different tastes and situations of his 'sheep'?....... I suspect not!

We do not have a similar rating system in England and in France there is virtually no rating system, so goodness knows how the society makes up rules for European bethels.

If you are really worried about whether a film is suitable, ask yourself whether Jesus would have watched it. (Actually he has seen it all first hand).
Ask yourself does it better inform you about history, the human condition? Also ask what is your motive. Is it titillation? I doubt that!
I am suspecting Schindler's List and The Passion of Christ were 'R' rated over there. Don't know just a guess! I not only watched both but felt they would improve the empathy of my children too.
British documentaries can be more harrowing than some films. So can the news. What are we supposed to do? :seehearspeak:
It is those who are sighing and groaning over the world that Jesus is looking for. He did not say coddle yourselves in cotton wool, you in the western world, who can afford to.

So learn to use your own conscience my dear sister. If you are troubled ask Jesus and his Father for wisdom and guidance. There may well be a time when communications are down and we cannot have a hot line to an elder or bethel, but we can always have a hot line to our heavenly parents. It is they whom you want to please.
So innocent dove learn also to be discreet (the correct translation for cautious as serpents).
I will pray that the peace that excels all thought be with you.
vicky

Yes, dear sister, let your conscience be your guide.:read: It is so clear that you are not looking for films that would put your spirituality in jeapordy.:dontknow: Some films at that level are brilliant, and realistic!I'm sure you can discern which ones are acceptable or not. :read: I know many brothers and sisters who go to see horror films!? The real scary and bloodcurdling ones!!? One pioneer sister I know, just loved 'Silence of the Lambs'!!? A film which I walked out on, because I found it so repellant. :shocked:Each to his own!:( Just be careful not to involve others, if you feel it just might disturb them.We all know when a film, or piece of music is trash. That's the moment we should discard it.
Agape,
Sister Grateful :giverose:

AR,
Your concerns get to the very core of the problem I see with legalistic religion. I suppose it depends on what a person really wants as opposed to what a person needs.

Needless to say, religions are made up of many people at many "levels" and varying degrees of maturity. Religion tends to measure everything by a perfect standard and then says: "You must be this way." The measure of religious "spirituality" is the degree to which we, as individuals, fall short. Individuals are then forced to "act" as perfect as possible and hide their imperfections out of fear of rejection. The one who acts the best is the one who is the most "spiritual."

Such religion accomplishes nothing truly spiritual.

If the goal of religion is to "make better people," doesn't it make sense to allow people to see what works for them and what does not work for them? In your example of entertainment, for instance, what you enjoy doesn't fit in with the perfect standard set by the watchtower. The watchtower isn't interested in your personal development as a Christian. Write Brooklyn a letter and see if they even know you. Why not experiment a little? Do what you feel you need to do without advertisement and then honestly evaluate yourself. If you have real friends, why not incorporate the unbiased opinions of those who really care about you? Does watching or listening to your "favorite" entertainment really work for you...or does it take you off your game?

Contrary to most popular religious belief systems, there is no "good" or "bad" (Gen 3:22). When thought of in those terms, the judgment criteria becomes an artificial, externally-enforced morality which serves no useful purpose. When thought of from the standpoint of "what works for ya" or "what doesn't work for ya," your conscience is permitted to evolve and you participate in your own re-creation. I found out years ago that religion doesn't work for me because it doesn't do what it's supposed to do: help me to build a better me. I already know the "standard of perfection," but I can't get there by hanging a label on myself and subjecting myself to a fear-based morality system.

gus

I like how you expressed it. When I first came to Christ we went through this cleaning period. Some R-rated movies went into the trash, followed by some PG-13, PG, and even G-rated movies. :D

hmmmmmmmmmmmm ....:huh:

I'm sure no one here or on the other board are interested or care...just need to vent.

Well FIRST of all let me say ...

OF COURSE I ... WE WOULD ...

CARE ...:hug::cheekkiss:

and ARE :heartbeat:

INTERESTED ...:grouphug::coffeeread::giverose:

Thank you AR for letting us KNOW about someone who is in such distress!!

When I read over the comments that this 'member' (whoever you are) made I couldn't help but feel SAD :( :sadwalk: ... and then get a wee bit MAD :angry:

Not at YOU ... dear member ... but rather that you would even think to have to ASK ... or FEEL such confusion or despondency about knowing what to do or feel ...

How FAR we as Jehovah's people have come from DEVELOPING ... or should I rather say ... being ALLOWED TO DEVELOP our Christian consciences ... :(or having the FREEDOM in being allowed to become SPRITIUALLY MATURE CHRISTIAN ADULTS :)... seeking to making decisions based on Scriptural and Christian principles as they APPLY TO US as individuals ...:read:

Now where was I just finished getting off the phone with a dearly loved sister and then doing my dishes ... so I have to get my mind back in the groove again ...:P:thinking::giverose:

For example ... what may be alright for ONE person to watch may not be for SOMEONE ELSE ... case in point ... my hubby watched Schinlder's (?) list ... it was rated ® ... but for ME I couldn't ... he watched it for HISTORICAL reasons ... I couldn't watch it even for historical reasons ...

Sometimes the CONTENT of a movie is 'mature' or not 'nice' ... but that doesn't mean it is WRONG ...

What was the apostle Paul determined NOT be in regard to his brothers and sisters ...?

2Cor. 1:24 ...

(ALT) Not that we exercise lordship over your faith, but we are co-workers with your joy, for you have stood firm by faith.

(BBE) Not that we have authority over your faith, but we are helpers of your joy: for it is faith which is your support.

(CEV) We are not bosses who tell you what to believe. We are working with you to make you glad, because your faith is strong.

(Darby) Not that we rule over your faith, but are fellow-workmen of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

(GNB) We are not trying to dictate to you what you must believe; we know that you stand firm in the faith. Instead, we are working with you for your own happiness.

(ISV) It is not that we are trying to lord it over your faith. On the contrary, we are workers with you to promote your joy, because you have been standing firm in the faith.

(WNT) Not that we want to lord it over you in respect of your faith--we do, however, desire to help your joy--for in the matter of your faith you are standing firm.

I really like how some of the above translations render this Scripture for it shows that the onus of how WE live ... OUR faith ... is on US ... and NO ONE ... even the foremost apostle to the nations was to LORD it over, or be a BOSS, or have DOMINION over our faith ... but only to help us be JOYFUL in what our faith leads us to ... to HELP us ...

And this would seem to be in harmony with what the BIBLE ... hence JEHOVAH GOD ... is telling us in this regard ...

Rom. 14:4 ...

(ALT) Who are you, the one judging another's household servant? To his own master he stands or falls; but he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

(BBE) Who are you to make yourself a judge of another man's servant? it is to his master that he is responsible for good or bad. Yes, his place will be safe, because the Lord is able to keep him from falling.

(CEV) What right do you have to criticize someone else's servants? Only their Lord can decide if they are doing right, and the Lord will make sure that they do right.

(EMTV) Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or he falls. And he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

(ESV) Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

(GNB) Who are you to judge the servants of someone else? It is their own Master who will decide whether they succeed or fail. And they will succeed, because the Lord is able to make them succeed.

So, here we see something that ... IMHO ... is really BEAUTIFUL ... and something that we need to EMBRACE as followers of Christ Jesus ...:read: :rose:

We have to TRUST IN OUR LORD ... in what he is TEACHING US as individuals and to apply that teaching as it relates to US ... and to our OWN INDIVIDUAL SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES and PERSONALITY ...

To recognize that OUR LOVE FOR RIGHT will enable us to DO WHAT IS RIGHT ... and the WANTING to will be fortified by our JEHOVAH and CHRIST JESUS ... through HOLY US ... HELPING US!

NO ONE is to judge another ... for it is not to MEN that we are accountable to ... but rather to our Judges Christ Jesus and Jehovah God!

Perhaps the elders and the FDS and GB need to have MORE TRUST in the sheep to LIVE THE TRUTH ... on their OWN ... without making it necessary for JW's to look to THEM for leadership ... or to tell them what is right or wrong ...

Perhaps they need to realize that those who WANT to do what is RIGHT ... WILL DO ... not because they were 'told to' ... or 'read it in a magazine' ... but rather because their LOVE OF GOD, AND CHRIST AND RIGHT will MOTIVATE them to do what they must in their PERSONAL relationship with their God and their Savior ... for those who DON'T want to ... well ... would it really matter if they were told by God or man ... they will do what they want regardless ... and they too will stand or fall in those decisions as well ...

So, I guess my answer for our dear member would be to examine what JEHOVAH would want you to do ... examine WHY you would want to watch whatever it is you want to watch (this can of course apply to ANYTHING not just watching a tv show or movie) ... how is it going to make me feel ... is it to help to teach me something ... or perhaps to face something I may have a fear of that I want to get over or face ...

There are a NUMBER of questions ... but hopefully you get my point ...

THE CHOICE IS YOURS ... and YOURS alone ...

Even if we ask for advice from someone ... it still will end up OUR choice ... for no one but you has walked in your footsteps or experienced your experiences ... and so ultimately the decision is up to you ... and if you are using Bible principles to guide you in your decision ... then what BETTER guide have you got ...?

Just some thoughts ... I hope I haven't come across too:weightlift: 'strong' :strong: or sounded angry :angry: ... I am just being passionate ...:funnyface:

Luv to you member ... and all ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

When I was a witness (for the Watchtower) I was taken to one side by a couple of elders in my congregation for owning "18 certificate" movies
(the bbfc equivalent of the MPAA's "R rating").
I politely told them it was none of their business, they then went to on to tell me that even simulated acts of violence could lead a person to love real violent acts.
They also wanted the names of any other brothers or sisters who owned such movies, talk about a witch hunt!

A lot of witness & other religious types come across like absolute baby's to me, they don't seem able to distinguish fantasy from reality.
If a person doesn't like what they are watching they can turn it off, but to then go around telling others what they CAN or CANNOT watch or listen to seems unacceptable to me personally.  :readthis: :bangin:

It makes me sad when I think about all the great works of art that witness miss out on, because all they could watch growing up was Disney movies :cry:  

To our anonymous sister; stay sane :funnyface:
& remember to pray, pray, pray!

Agape Johnny :heartbeat:

It all comes down to developing one's own conscience and boundaries. But, if you think something may bother someone else, it is in your best interest and theirs not to mention it in front of them.

As far as my opinion, I think it depends on what you are getting out of something. The Bible is chock full of immorality and bloodshed, but not without it's point.

Hmmm...do "we all know"? Who is "we"?

And if "we all know"....what does that mean? Since "we all know," can we now legislate morality? I can see it now: "Since we all know...you should've known better than to watch that R-rated movie."

I think there's an assumption that everyone's experience coming to Christ is cookie-cutter. To me, it creates a lot of unnecessary problems judging and measuring the progress of others. Then, you're back to square one.

gus

I hope that's a rhetorical question, Gary.

The problem is (and I know that you know this...) there are actually people out there who think movies, or music, or clothing, or whatever, have everything to do with religion. Religion, for many people, is about measuring up to a standard. It's about being told what to do. It's rarely top-down like: how do I measure up to Jesus? It's usually about "I" or "we"...and how you measure up to "me" or "us." Is it any wonder the world is such a mess? The moral "authorities" aren't all that good!

gus

You said it Prop!! Great advice! :thumbup:

A search of the actual written material in Wt publications on this subject provides an interesting contrast to what is said on the platform.