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Who is the little horn of Daniel?

One of the key points in prophecy that befuddles many interpretors is the little horn in Daniel 7 and the little horn in Daniel 8.

Some of the interpretations going around say he is Antiochus IV, America, America and Britain, a future world government controlled by the Illuminati, or a Russian antichrist, etc.

Today I am not going to say I have the exact answer, as I am still sorting out certain aspects, but I will present some clues that need to be taken into consideration when approaching these prophecies along with a little bit of history.

But perhaps I can get some group input first.

Do we all agree on who the 4 beast in Daniel chapter 7 are? Anyone want to take a go there?

Uh.....


thanks? :confused:

The little horn of Daniel 7 compares to the scarlet-colored beast of Revelation 17 and represents the 8th King, which is yet to arise. The WTS's view on the identity of both the 7th and 8th Kings is erroneous. (The WTS says the 7th King is Britain and America, and that the 8th King is the United Nations.) I personally contend that the 7th King is comprised of ALL governments that have shared rulership over earth's affairs since the fall of Rome, which was the 6th King. I also contend that the upcoming 8th King is to be a government that will exercise World Rule, and first appears on the world scene after the future "death-stroke" of the 7th King heals.

Seismos

The little horn is the Bible Students started by Charles Taze Russel which later grew to become the Jehovah's Witnesses.


ablebodiedman

A more credible understanding of the bible will be obtained if we stop associating so much of it's prophecy with the nations and their kings.

Carefull contemplation of the following scripture supports the claim above:

Isaiah 40
14 With whom did he consult together that one might make him understand, or who teaches him in the path of justice, or teaches him knowledge, or makes him know the very way of real understanding? 15 Look! The nations are as a drop from a bucket; and as the film of dust on the scales they have been accounted.


If the bible or a chapter of the bible is a bucket, then the volume dedicated to nations and their kings is just one drop.

If the bible or a chapter of the bible is represented by scales then the volume dedicated to the nations and their kings is measured just by dust on those scales.


Therefore the wild beasts mentioned in Daniel and Revelation have nothing to do with nations and their kings because Jehovah considers them to be just a drop.  There is way too much of the bible dedicated to the wild beasts for them to symbolize nations and their kings. If they did represent nations and their kings then Jehovah would have spent more than a drop or a speck of dust on them and the scripture in Isaiah Chapter 40 would be untrue. Therefore the wild beasts cannot symbolize nations or their kings.

The scripture quoted above associates real understanding with this very concept.


Just thought I could help with a little help so; "that one might make him understand"


ablebodiedman

WOTS;

I have read on this lately (A little bit anyway..).

1 Macabees 1 seems to solidify, at least to me, that it is Antiochus IV.

BUT...

I also believe this is a 'type' for the 8th King, or the AntiChrist, if you like.

I'm still trying to gather my thoughts on the matter so I can articulate it properly; and, I still have more research to do on it, as well as the parallels.

Your thoughts?


:cheer:

prop--:detective:--Min

Hi PropMin,

Do you believe 1 Macabees is inspired?

Macabees also says that Antiochus was the one who set up "the abomination that causes desolation" but Jesus set them straight as recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 -- that is probably why he specifically said "let the reader use discernment", most of them already thought it was fulfilled.

Daniel 8 says the horn would cast down the temple. Antiochus never did such, but the Roman armies did.

You can see my thoughts here, as I charted them out:
http://designfugue.com/prophecy

and the little horn also "put on great airs"

Daniel 8
"11 And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs,"


Prince of the army = Jesus Christ (called "god" (small "g")

put on great airs = lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence,(2 Th 2:4)


and


Daniel 8
and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down (or profaned-Da11:31).

constant feature = memorial service

sanctuary thrown down (profaned by disgusting thing)

following article explains how this happens:

When you catch sight of the disgusting thing!    <--------- click


ablebodiedman

Hi ABM,

While I contend greatly with some of the things you say. I think that the Watchtower Society and many other organized Christian institutions are descendants of the apostasy that began even in the first century. Why don't you take a step back and look at the bigger picture, and maybe you will see that the Watchtower is just another small piece of a very large puzzle.

Peace in Christ,
Andrew

wots,

It seems like that is something we can agree on.

The little horn is at the very end of a long line of wild beasts.

That it started in the 1st Century is also something I can agree on with you.

Jehovah mentioned that the nations and therefore also their pagan kings are just a drop in the bucket.

He doesn't care about them nor are they of any significance to him.

He therefore doesn't waste his time filling the bible with supposed symbolic mysteries concerning them.

So what does Jehovah really care about?

answer: ............................  his Kingdom!

This Kingdom started with Jesus in the first century.

What the wild beasts in Daniel therefore symbolically represent is the evolution of his kingdom throughout the last 2000 years since the death and ressurrection of his son Jesus Christ.

That is something more than a drop in the bucket to Jehovah.

It's the whole bucket.

That is what he cares about.


ablebodiedman

I like Daniel chapter 8 because it makes more sense to me at the present time.

So who really does the ram represent?

What historical figure had a great hold over western, northern and southern parts of the world and yet not the eastern parts?


It was when Christianity started to recognise a Papal system.


Although very powerfull there must have been some division within the church as indicated by the two horns.

This division was an eastern and western separation of those who held to Christian beliefs.

Above quote taken from the following web page:

Christian Denominations and History  <---- click

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm


Catholicism is therefore represented by the taller of the two horns which came up afterward while the Eastern Orthodox is the shorter. Da 8:3


ablebodiedman

ABM,

How do you account for the fact that the scriptures actually tell us that these beasts represent earthly kings?

The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia.

The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king.

It doesn't get less subtle than that. Whether you believe God would waste his time on talking about nations, let's let the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say.

As to your claim that what these scriptures are really about are his Kingdom, yes, of course. The whole point of them is to show the lineage of man's hand at dominating the earth until God intervenes and sets up his Kingdom.

In the vision of Chapter 8 Gabriel does not say it is earthly pagan human kings, instead he mentions that the ram and goat represent kings. I do not believe these are human kings but are spiritual kings who have rulership of the earth and effect its human  organizations including the very much important and extremely powerful religious ones.

A verse in chapter 10 of Daniel supports this as follows:


Daniel 10:13

13 But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:20
20 So he went on to say: “Do you really know why I have come to you? And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming.

As you can see the princes and kings being referred to by the angel conversing with Daniel are angelic (demonic). These are being referred to as princes and kings because they are the ones who are actually ruling the world even at the present time. The demonic kings and princes are the ones responsible for effecting much of what we see happening in the world.

What we see with our literal eyes are human organizations however, what we are really up against is described by the Apostle Paul:


Ephesians 6:10
10 Finally, go on acquiring power in [the] Lord and in the mightiness of his strength. 11 Put on the complete suit of armor from God that YOU may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; 12 because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places


The most disgusting and insidious of all these very powerfull organizations is the one which actually misleads "the holy ones". The literal human pagan kings are not trying to mislead the holy ones. It is the demonic ones, Satan's weeds who are doing this.

How do the princes and kings, the rulers of the darkness acheive this?

Jesus himself explained how they would do this :

Matthew 14:37

37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil.


With what I have explained above the kings and princes are indeed demonic world powers however, the ram, he goat and all the seperate horns represent earthly manifestations of their spiritual power.

So, the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say.

Fully supporting my posts above.

The scriptures in Daniel and Revelation symbolically describe God's Kingdom and the effect Satan and his weeds (princes and kings) are having on this same kingdom.

This is what Jehovah cares about.

It should also be what we care about.

If the bible scriptures in Daniel are being interpreted as representing pagan human kings then it is nothing more than a history lesson.

I can get a more detailed lesson from the local library so why waste the time.

In order for me to win the battle against the wicked spirit forces then what I care about is what they will attempt to do and have done. This is something I cannot learn from history books and so am in much need of assistance.

Daniel and the book of Revelation provide this assistance in a wonderfull way.



ablebodiedman

The 2nd Beast - The He-Goat with one horn

Daniel 8
5 And I, for my part, kept on considering, and, look! there was a male of the goats coming from the sunset upon the surface of the whole earth, and it was not touching the earth. And as regards the he-goat, there was a conspicuous horn between its eyes. 6 And it kept coming all the way to the ram possessing the two horns, which I had seen standing before the watercourse; and it came running toward it in its powerful rage. 7 And I saw it coming into close touch with the ram, and it began showing bitterness toward it, and it proceeded to strike down the ram and to break its two horns, and there proved to be no power in the ram to stand before it. So it threw it to the earth and trampled it down, and the ram proved to have no deliverer out of its hand.


What happened to the Catholic Church?


It's power was overthrown by Protestantism.

Above quote taken from the following web page:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm <--- click

The protestant movement is represented in Daniels vision by the "male of the goats" who showed bitterness towards the ram and trampled it down. (It doesn't say he killed it)


ablebodiedman