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ablebodiedman Wrote:
The 2nd Beast - The He-Goat with one horn

Daniel 8
5 And I, for my part, kept on considering, and, look! there was a male of the goats coming from the sunset upon the surface of the whole earth, and it was not touching the earth. And as regards the he-goat, there was a conspicuous horn between its eyes. 6 And it kept coming all the way to the ram possessing the two horns, which I had seen standing before the watercourse; and it came running toward it in its powerful rage. 7 And I saw it coming into close touch with the ram, and it began showing bitterness toward it, and it proceeded to strike down the ram and to break its two horns, and there proved to be no power in the ram to stand before it. So it threw it to the earth and trampled it down, and the ram proved to have no deliverer out of its hand.


What happened to the Catholic Church?


It's power was overthrown by Protestantism.


Quote:
1517 CE: Martin Luther attacked certain practices and beliefs of the Church, and the authority of the Pope. He was followed by other reformers which produced a mass movement -- the Protestant Reformation.


Above quote taken from the following web page:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_deno.htm <--- click

The protestant movement is represented in Daniels vision by the "male of the goats" who showed bitterness towards the ram and trampled it down. (It doesn't say he killed it)


ablebodiedman


The He-Goat with Four Horns replacing the broken Great Horn

Daniel 8
8 And the male of the goats, for its part, put on great airs to an extreme; but as soon as it became mighty, the great horn was broken, and there proceeded to come up conspicuously four instead of it, toward the four winds of the heavens.


So what happened to Protestantism?

Although very successful Protestantism eventually became divided as represented by the four horns on the male goat which replaced the one great horn.

Does history show that Protestantism essentially divided into four separate groups?


Yes!


Quote:
the Protestant Reformation began out of which four major divisions or traditions of Protestantism would immerge: Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist and Anglican. During this time God raised up godly men in different countries in order to once again restore churches throughout the world to their biblical roots and to biblical doctrines and practices.


The above quote is taken from the following web page:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Protestant-Reformation.html <---- Click


What did the four horns of the male of the goat represent?

Lutheran
Reformed
Anabaptist
Anglican


ablebodiedman

ablebodiedman Wrote:
The He-Goat with Four Horns replacing the broken Great Horn

Daniel 8
8 And the male of the goats, for its part, put on great airs to an extreme; but as soon as it became mighty, the great horn was broken, and there proceeded to come up conspicuously four instead of it, toward the four winds of the heavens.


So what happened to Protestantism?

Although very successful Protestantism eventually became divided as represented by the four horns on the male goat which replaced the one great horn.

Does history show that Protestantism essentially divided into four separate groups?


Yes!


Quote:
the Protestant Reformation began out of which four major divisions or traditions of Protestantism would immerge: Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist and Anglican. During this time God raised up godly men in different countries in order to once again restore churches throughout the world to their biblical roots and to biblical doctrines and practices.


The above quote is taken from the following web page:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Protestant-Reformation.html  <---- Click


What did the four horns of the male of the goat represent?

Lutheran
Reformed
Anabaptist
Anglican


ablebodiedman


The Little Horn which grew to become great

Daniel 9
9 And out of one of them there came forth another horn, a small one, and it kept getting very much greater toward the south and toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration.

So who is represented by the sudden growth of "another horn, a small one"?

The little horn represents the growth of the Bible Students Association started by Charles Taze Russell who is quoted in the following:


Quote:
"Seemingly by accident, one evening I dropped into a dusty, dingy hall, where I had heard religious services were held, to see if the handful who met there had anything more sensible to offer than the creeds of the great churches. There, for the first time, I heard something of the views of Second Adventists [Advent Christian Church], the preacher being Mr. Jonas Wendell . . . Thus, I confess indebtedness to Adventists as well as to other denominations. Though his Scripture exposition was not entirely clear, . . . it was sufficient, under God, to re-establish my wavering faith in the divine inspiration of the Bible, and to show that the records of the apostles and prophets are indissolubly linked. What I heard sent me to my Bible to study with more zeal and care than ever before, and I shall ever thank the Lord for that leading; for though Adventism helped me to no single truth, it did help me greatly in the unlearning of errors, and thus prepared me for the Truth."


Charles Taze Russell



This very small religion started to grow and from scripture it can be deduced that it actually had the real truth.

Why?

Daniel 8: 9-10
It grew toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration. And it kept getting greater toward the army of the heavens"

Who is this army of the heavens?

Revelation 19:4
14 Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen.

It is those annointed who receive an invitation for an opportunity to rule with Jesus Christ as kings of the entire inhabited earth.

The small horn grew into an organization where the individuals are called Jehovah's Witnesses and the organization is called "God's spirit directed Organization"


Many of these invited and anointed ones loose their opportunity to rule over the earth because they are misled and stumbled by the small horn which grew.

Daniel 8:10
it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it went trampling them down.

Satan's weeds and the evil slave are successful in misleading some and causing them to believe the lie and to operate in error. This disgusting turn of events is the cause of an entity within the small horn which grew to become great called the "man of lawlessness".

The little horn of Daniel eventually grew to become the great "wild beast" of Revelation.

The little horn which grew great has also undermined Jesus Christ's very important command (Law) regarding baptism. In this way the little horn which grew to become great has gone; "all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs," . In this way it has obtained veneration for itself.

This little horn has successfully deceived an army of anointed "holy ones" who now participate with the Little horn and so transgress against their own holy covenant.

Daniel 8
12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.

A truly wonderfull and amazing deception on the part of the Little Horn mentioned in the book of Daniel (Satan and his weeds)!

Exactly what the Apostle Paul said the Man of Lawlessness would do:

2 Thessalonians 2:9

9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

No wonder they are going to weep and beat themselves in grief when they finally realize that what I have posted here is true.


ablebodiedman

ablebodiedman Wrote:

warmthofthesun Wrote:
Daniel 8 says the horn would cast down the temple. Antiochus never did such, but the Roman armies did.



and the little horn also "put on great airs"

Daniel 8
"11 And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs,"


Prince of the army = Jesus Christ (called "god" (small "g")

put on great airs = lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence,(2 Th 2:4)


and


Daniel 8
and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down (or profaned-Da11:31).

constant feature = memorial service

sanctuary thrown down (profaned by disgusting thing)

following article explains how this happens:

When you catch sight of the disgusting thing!    <--------- click


ablebodiedman


I have changed my opinion on this statement made about 4 years ago:

constant feature = memorial service


The constant feature is the Holy Covenant which is entered through Baptism.


I have since made a video called "The Unforgivable Sin" to explore the significance of this.

The link is in my signature.


In Christ

abe

Woahh... a 3 year old thread :D

Private interpretation aside, the accounts themselves interpret some of the beasts for us. For example:

"And the he-goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn between his eyes is the first king. As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power." (Daniel 8:21,22)

Why anyone feels the need to go beyond Gabriel's interpretation here is beyond me.

I'd suggest the "little horn" in Daniel 8 is Rome. Many people assume it comes out of one of the "four heads", but I'd suggest it's actually coming out of the "four winds"... the passage is ambiguous, if you read it carefully.

It was the Roman kingdom that superseded the Greek, threw down some of the "stars", mistreated the Prince Jesus Christ (as it also did in Daniel 9), and took away the Temple's continual sacrifice and overthrew His sanctuary, in the period Jesus called "the end of the age" and Gabriel called "the time of the end" - in which the Jewish age ended.

This "interpretation" is also supported by chapter 9, in which this Roman entity cuts off the Messiah, the Temple and Jerusalem and gains mastery of the covenant people for 7 years (66-73), and also by Daniel 11 which foretells the battle between the king of the North (at Antioch) and the Negev [south] (at Alexandria), leading up to Nero's setting of himself as a god, burning the Christians, being disturbed by reports from the north and east, before his suicide.

Rome plays a MAJOR part in Daniel's prophecy, even though the empire is not named. (And we only get the number of its name in Revelation, as well.)

One thing to keep in mind - if the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the Roman empire (which most sane commentators agree on), then the "little horn" in that chapter comes up among the 1, and humiliates 3 of the first ones. Historically, this is what the Papal kingdom did... it came up in the former "ten kings" of the Roman territory, and it defeated 3 of them.

Interpretum Wrote:
Woahh... a 3 year old thread :D

Private interpretation aside, the accounts themselves interpret some of the beasts for us. For example:

"And the he-goat is the king of Greece; and the great horn between his eyes is the first king. As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power." (Daniel 8:21,22)

Why anyone feels the need to go beyond Gabriel's interpretation here is beyond me.

I'd suggest the "little horn" in Daniel 8 is Rome. Many people assume it comes out of one of the "four heads", but I'd suggest it's actually coming out of the "four winds"... the passage is ambiguous, if you read it carefully.

It was the Roman kingdom that superseded the Greek, threw down some of the "stars", mistreated the Prince Jesus Christ (as it also did in Daniel 9), and took away the Temple's continual sacrifice and overthrew His sanctuary, in the period Jesus called "the end of the age" and Gabriel called "the time of the end" - in which the Jewish age ended.

This "interpretation" is also supported by chapter 9, in which this Roman entity cuts off the Messiah, the Temple and Jerusalem and gains mastery of the covenant people for 7 years (66-73), and also by Daniel 11 which foretells the battle between the king of the North (at Antioch) and the Negev [south] (at Alexandria), leading up to Nero's setting of himself as a god, burning the Christians, being disturbed by reports from the north and east, before his suicide.

Rome plays a MAJOR part in Daniel's prophecy, even though the empire is not named. (And we only get the number of its name in Revelation, as well.)

One thing to keep in mind - if the fourth beast in Daniel 7 is the Roman empire (which most sane commentators agree on), then the "little horn" in that chapter comes up among the 1, and humiliates 3 of the first ones. Historically, this is what the Papal kingdom did... it came up in the former "ten kings" of the Roman territory, and it defeated 3 of them.


Interpretum,

I think you have been reading too many Watchtower Magazines.


In Christ

abe

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I think you have been reading too many Watchtower Magazines.


Well, to be fair to them... they do get prophecy understandings right... on occasion :D

Interpretum Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:
I think you have been reading too many Watchtower Magazines.


Well, to be fair to them... they do get prophecy understandings right... on occasion :D


Good morning/afternoon bro interp::hibye:

Can you pleeze give me an example coz my memory is fading fast from brain rash, both real and imagined:D

Thank you!!!
sis

Andrew!

Might I add my research to this very complicated bible prophecy of Daniel?

Please see chapter six leading into the subject from page 81 to 109. Pages 88 & 89 begins the discussion of the little horn.

Click arrow to 89 at top of page!

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlvI2MY...hus&f=true

The Sage!
Hi sis llee :thumbsup:

llee Wrote:
Can you pleeze give me an example coz my memory is fading fast from brain rash, both real and imagined:D

Thank you!!!


OK... the things I think they got right on prophecy, would be...

(1) The image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. They correctly (in my opinion) identified the head of gold with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, the breasts and arms of silver with Medo-Persia, the belly and thighs of copper with Greece, and the legs of iron as Rome.

(2) Daniel's 4 beasts in Daniel 7. The lion beast they correctly (in my opinion) identify as Babylon, the bear beast as Medo-Persia, the four-headed leopard beast as Greece, and the ten-horned beast with teeth of iron as Rome.

If you search on the Internet, you'll find that most Bible commentators agree... so the WTS interpretation on these is really just what people have been teaching for a few thousand years here.

(However, opinions differ on the "little horn" of Daniel 7. Russell believed it was the Papal kingdom, and the WTS believe it represents Anglo-America. I think that Russell was right here.)

(3) I also think they were generally right in their interpretation of the "king of the north" and the "king of the south" in Daniel 11... up until (and including) their identification of the king "who is causing an exactor to pass through the splendid kingdom" (verse 20) with Augustus Caesar of the Romans, and the "one who is to be despised" as Tiberius Caesar, under whose rule the "Leader of [the] covenant" (Jesus Christ) was "broken".

They correctly identified the "king of the north" with the former parts of the Greek empire centred around Antioch (north) and Alexandria (south)... but after correctly identifying Augustus and Tiberius, they zoom off into fantasy land with ramblings about Queen Zenobia, the Dutch, Spanish and Anglo-America... while completely neglecting the later Roman emperors such as Caligula, and particularly Nero, who is described in great detail in the prophecy.

(4) I think their interpretation of Daniel 9 and the "70 weeks" of years is also fairly accurate. They don't have a "dual" interpretation of Daniel 9, but they recognize it all came to a completion at the destruction of Jerusalem.

They claim that the 69th week ended in 33AD when the Messiah was "cut off" (killed), and that 3 1/2 years later, around 36AD the Abrahamic covenant expired and was opened to Gentiles (with the conversion of Cornelius). Or something like that... my memory is a bit rusty on that one as well :D

I'd suggest that the 70th week actually took place between 66 and 73AD, with the "half of the week" being the actual destruction of the Temple in 70AD and the ending of the daily sacrifice.

Either way... both myself and the WTS agree that Daniel 9 was completely fulfilled by the 1st century, although the details differ a bit.

The leopard was Greece.

The beast with iron teeth was Rome. Iron was also used to represent them in the statue of Daniel.

The four horns in total are explained historically here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_the_Four_Emperors

There were four emperors in power in quick succession. Galba, Otho, Vitellius and Vespasian. Vespasian became the one horn out of the other three, in effect tearing them out of place.

Vespasian had two sons, Titus and Domitian. These are the two lambs horns on the beast of Rev 13:11. Titus led the charge against Jerusalem in 70.

The beast of Rev 13:7 shows a young Rome, with the body of Greece, feet of Medo-Persia. This beast was led by Nero (Nero Ceasar =666 in Hebrew) the death stroke was the burning of Rome.

It all ties together!
The leopard was Greece.

The beast with iron teeth was Rome. Iron was also used to represent them in the statue of Daniel.

The four horns in total are explained historically here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_the_Four_Emperors

There were four emperors in power in quick succession. Galba, Otho, Vitellius and Vespasian. Vespasian became the one horn out of the other three, in effect tearing them out of place.

Vespasian had two sons, Titus and Domitian. These are the two lambs horns on the beast of Rev 13:11. Titus led the charge against Jerusalem in 70.

The beast of Rev 13:7 shows a young Rome, with the body of Greece, feet of Medo-Persia. This beast was led by Nero (Nero Ceasar =666 in Hebrew) the death stroke was the burning of Rome.

It all ties together!
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