Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

9. "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son." 2 John.

  God's spirit lead us to see the importance given by Jehovah Himself to Christ's teaching !
  But first , what is that teaching ?
  -- Jesus answered to us :"16. Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me."
  Again we see , apostle John wrote leaded by spirit :
17. "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. "
  Jesus Himself said regarding to all His Father word (including the written word in the old t. ) :17. "Sanctify them by the truth; [b]your word is truth. " John 17.

The question is : if God's word in O.T. is truth , why ap. John said "the truth came through Jesus.." ?

As we can see , the knowledge/teaching God sent through His Son has priority.

  Not Jesus , nor ap. John decided that , but Jehovah Himself !
Let us hear His voice :
5."While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" Matt.17

Now , what is to be understood through the expression "teaching of Christ" (only a part of what He preached)?  Let Him answer to us :

20. "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

We are today under the same Jesus's commandment !

Apostle Paul agrees with this priority gave by Jehovah to the teaching of Christ: 1. "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe......" Hebrews 1.
also: "24. to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12.

It has been prophecied that in the "latter days" there will be a certain action inside God's people :

10. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11. It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. 12. Because of rebellion, the host of the saints [a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13.Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"

14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."  Daniel 8.

As we can see ,the truth is thrown down during the 2300 evenings and mornings. God's promise is , "then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."
The action of reconsacrating take place  when Jesus is present at the Temple ! When Jesus begins his action , He finds "the truth"-the correct understanding of His teaching-- down !
So He have to re-put His teaching to the place decided by Jehovah Himself!
It is written at Acts 3:21 : 21."He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets."

When Jesus starts his second presence , He does like that :
20. "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Rev.3.
Also in Luke 12 :
37. "It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. "

What do you think He will serve at the table to those watching when He come ?
-- Exactly the correct understanding of "the teaching of Christ" !

Now , the further question is :  What does Christ teach us regarding the Heavenly Kingdom , when was it set in Heaven, when was Satan thrown down from Heaven , when was Jesus enthroned , when get fullfiled Psalm 110:1 , etc... ?
Let us consider Jesus words:"20.and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
If Jesus was always with His followers , what does his second presence mean ? Really started it in 1914 ?

Let all of us think to that !

With love in Christ , r.v.

The O.T. was Christs word also.

I want to share some thoughts on Christ's "coming" .

My post is not of a "scholar" one , because I don't know hebrew, I don't know greek , I don't know english , I don't know well even my maternal language !

BUT I read Bible ! and I believe this BOOK was written for such persons like me !
And I like to pay attention to God's words (found in His book) !

I find in Matthew 17:5 that God gives a very clear command to (three of ) Jesus disciples :
"This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
Listen to him!"
By these words , Jehovah is setting His own order , because He is a GOD of order !

These His words SET the importance of the Biblical Teaching called "the teaching of Christ" !

By starting to search any biblical subject respecting God's order we may find the needed answers , because exactly that is the Holy Spirit telling us : to respect/obey Father's commandemnts and to submit to His order !


Now , let us come back to Jesus (second) coming , or "parousia" - I dont know what in greek it means.

but I read Jesus words in Matthew 5:17
17. Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

simple question : what does Jesus means for "come" ? ....Come .. to fulfil !
that is , "coming" is strictly related with His action to fulfil the law and prophecies !

In the last hours with his disciples He said
Matthew 28:20
20. teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you:
and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world

Jesus was saying that He is (present) with His followers always , even unto the end of the world .
So He has been present " with you always" , but that doesn't mean that he was "coming" !
Because (the word) "coming" is pointing to the fact that He has to act (something) for completely fulfiling of the prophecies

Now, the prophecies was written regarding "God's people" at the "latter days" ! (Daniel 10:14 ).
Now , the main characteristic of this period of time named biblically "the later days" , is that , a certain people who prove itself to be "of God" is existing , or present,
and within this people (gathered and come out of "Egypt") all prophecies regarding and concerning it , must be fulfilling/fulfilled !

So , we may say that during this period of "latter days" Jesus is "coming" , because it is He that is fulfiling the prophecies !

While He "is coming" , that doesn't mean that He "is come" already, because that action of coming, or af fulfilling the prophecies is during for many decades , even more that a hundred years , as long as the "latter days" last .


Now we go to an another look of Jesus "coming"
in Mathew 25:31-46, in the verses 40 and 45 Jesus is teaching that He could be identified in the persons of "these least brothers of Him" .

Here we arriwed to an other meaning of His "coming", His presence in / within His "least brothers"
of course , Jesus is coming "in spirit" in or within His least brothers /while they are in flesh, on earth ,
and because of that the apostle John has written in his epistle as it follows 2John 1:7
7. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. NIV

I used NIV translation because it seem to me that it points to the (second) coming of Jesus,
as the romanian Bible does , and I am sure that is the understanding that John was speaking regarding/pointing to the (second) coming of Jesus .

So we here can know how is Jesus coming in the flesh , not his literal flesh, not a "incarnation' as the angels did ,
BUT in the "flesh" of His least brothers , His Body !


Now , we have to go to Jesus teachings/words in Matthew 24 .
Here Jesus tells to apostles that there will be many "signs" , but the "end" will not be then !
and that they have to watch for His coming !

ALL the signs foretold by Jesus are events that have to exist during the "latter days" and have a fulfilment in or within "God's people" (of course , a spiritual fulfilment ) , and then the end comes , or Jesus comes ! Matthew 24:32,33.

How so ?

Our Master teached us about the kingdom , through the parables
let us see His words in Matthew 13:24-30 ; 36-43.
from the verses 30 and 40 we clearly can see that Jesus puts an equal between "the end", "the harvest" and His own actions in quality of "judge" leading the operations of judgement , or the separation between wheat and weeds !

So , in "the end" time Jesus is "coming" in position of appointed Judge , leading the judgement operations from Heaven , from the Right side of the Father (a position he will never leave) , as written in Hebrews 10:12
12. but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
in romanian this verse sounds like (my translation) :"but He, when/after He had offered one (single) sacrifice for sins, sat down for ever on the right hand of God". >> it results a position never to be changed .

(here is the reason some time the Bible translations in other languages messes me )


So, let see a little summary about Jesus presence (from a non scholar )
-- according to His words in Matthew 28:20 , He has been "always" (present) with His followers - but not coming but not doing any actions on earth in order to fulfill prophecies

-- according to His words in Matthew 5:17 , His (second) coming means His activity in order to fulfill the prophecies on earth , which activity (according to the prophecies) have to end with the Kingdom of God being settled/installed on earth !
-- ( the time when Jesus starts on fulfiling the prophecies is decided by God )

>> from 1872 we may see this kind of activity , and in that year the "latter days" have begun, because in that year it happened something that proved the existency of "God's people" as an entity ,gathered from all nations .

>> from that time onward , the wheat grew up togeter with the weeds "in the kingdom" (during the latter days)

-- according to His words in Matthew 13, after the allowed time ( for growing the wheat and weeds together) , it comes "the end", or the harvest , or the judgement period >> that means that "the end" time is at the end of the latter days .
this period was prophetised also in Malachi 3.
>> during this period Jesus is coming, or acting as Judge , starting from God's House, or the "Temple"

>> according with the fulfilled prophecies , He is present as Judge from the autumn of 2005 ... and the judgement day lasts for 10 years , so, till 2015 .

>> so, during this end, or judgement day Jesus begins to be present or to "come" "in flesh" on earth,
that is, to be represented by "the least" of his brothers who return to Him and let themselves to be cleaned/sanctified / made holy by Jesus the Judge (found in the Temple/ Malachi 3 )!

this operation is ongoing today and at a certain next/future time, when all who belong to HIM will be awakened, gathered and cleansed , they as the "body of Christ" will be given the Kingdom on earth according to Daniel 7:26,27.

-- when all members of His Body/flesh on earth will be already gathered "in spirit" , then we will can say that Christ is already "come" !

-- in fact this is the meaning of "rapture" , the awakening , recognising the spirit of Christ who is now present in the Temple and judging the "sons of Levi" , purifying them , and become "one" in Christ , and being brought at the "new understanding" of God's word as teached by the Spirit of Christ who dwell in them"
( this implies they have to leave all humans teachings, all human theories/so called truths in which they have lived until now )

-- at the time when Christ is "come" in (all ) His Body/flesh, and the Kingdom will be given to "God's people of saints", then means Jesus Christ the King has started ruling on earth, in the midst of his enemies
according to Psalm 110:2
2. Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.


also Psalm 2 enters in scene this present time.

I hope my few words will help my brothers and sisters,

with great respect for the King,
rus virgil.

I find being very important to re-peat a theme based on the "teaching of Christ" :

---------The Kingdom of God - when in Heaven ? -- according to Jesus' teaching --------


Jesus preached this Kingdom as it follows:
Matthew 4 :
17. From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Mark 1:
15. "The time has come," he said.
"The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

WHAT is God's Kingdom ?

According to Jesus words
Matthew 6 :
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

...we see that His Kingdom means the state where His will is done !

And surely it implies a certain order made by God .

This "order" means a certain structure of authority between God's heavenly and earthly creatures, of course , made by God, or according to His will !

So, Jesus named this kingdom as being
-- OF GOD and
-- OF HEAVEN

What means that ?

Of course, it means
-- this kingdom belongs to God (YHWH ), it originates/comes from HIM !
-- its place of birth is in Heaven , there is its capital city of residence , from there it will be extended all over the God's creations .

That means , the Kingdom of Heaven CAN EXIST IN HEAVEN even not being come yet on earth.

But what the "Heaven" is ?

People often would think it is all the space from where human eye cannot see further.
Well , let us see a scripture :
Psalm 33 :
13. From heaven the LORD looks down
and sees all mankind;
14. from his dwelling place he watches
all who live on earth-

Job 1 :
6. One day the angels came to present themselves
before the LORD , and Satan also came with them.


So , when the Kingdom of God and of Heaven gets start , it start in Heaven, where is God's "dwelling place" , and "before the Lord" where sometime the angels present themselves....

Now let us see Jesus teaching about this kingdom...:

-- "the Kingdom of Heaven is near"... means it was THEN near , when Jesus was on earth !

--(Matt.12:28 ) : But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

... that means God's kingdom WAS ACTIVE in Heaven at the moment when Jesus was speaking/ when He was on earth !

YES , when Jesus WAS on earth the Kingdom WAS active in Heaven , even it was not fully installed ": the future King was on earth , not raised at God's right side yet !

John 18:
37. "You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king.

...Jesus was King then !

Furthermore Jesus taught his followers how to pray the Father
Matthew 6:
10. Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

IF we believe that Jesus words are the truth ,
then we believe that He taught us that
as the Kingdom was already on Heaven,
and God's will was done there,
our prayer(and desire also) to be :.."let (this God's order and state where His will is done) come on earth"

surely Jesus did not say "Thy will be done ..on earth ..as it will be done in Heaven some time in the future.."

Now we can correctly understand what Jesus meant when He said
Matthew 16 :
28. Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in (into) His kingdom.

The Son of Man was seen "coming" into His Kingdom at Pentecosta , when the earth / his followers on earth / received the confirmation from the Holy Spirit that He has been exalted and enthroned - in full power in Heaven - !

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS ??
WHEN WHERE THEY THROWN OUT OF HEAVEN ??

--(John 12:31) "Now is the time for judgment on this world;
now the prince of this world will be driven out....

... where out ? literally stick on earth ?
-- NOT ! but "driven out from "God's dwelling place", out from "before the Lord" where they could go before Jesus came on earth !

--( Luke 10:18 ) He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

-- apostle John said regarding Satan using past tense :
...( Rev 9:1 ) "The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth."

WHILE Jesus was on earth He was spiritually fighting against Satan , but the very moment of overcoming him was at the moment of His death !
-- a short time before His martirio , Jesus said (John 16:33)
"...I have overcome the world." -- inclusive its god !

Apostle Paul agrees with that Colossians 2:15:
"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."


So it is absolutely sure ,
The Kingdom of God and of Heaven get started in HEAVEN at that time when Jesus accomplished his service on earth , and immediate after his resurrection He received all power !

Jesus said ( Matthew 28 )
18. Then Jesus came to them and said,
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

What could retain Jesus from using all authority
starting with that time ?
-- Nothing could retain Jesus from using this authority in Heaven !

BUT as concerns earth , YES , something retained Him !
IT was Father's will - as prophetically exprimed in Psalm 110
1. The LORD says to my Lord: ( at His enthronement )
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

Well , but WHY this scripture is to be applied only concerning the earth , and not also for Heaven ?
-- IT IS because we believe Jesus' teaching !
-- HE taught us that His enemies were already thrown out of "Heaven" at the moment of His exalting at the right side of the Glory


Well , at Pentecosta ,the Holy Spirit enlightened the first christians to understand ..(Acts 2 )as Peter said :

32. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
33. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
34. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
"'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35. until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

36. "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this:
God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Well , here the word "KING" did not appear , but Jesus being "exalted to the right hand of God" and using "all authority in Heaven" , IT MEANS HE WAS KING IN HEAVEN !....as He said it to Pilat...

BUT REGARDING EARTH ??

Jesus said he received also "all power on earth".
So , was it something who retained Christ from using His "all power" on earth ?
-- YES ! It was YHWH' will , exprimed prophetically in Psalm 110:1 and correctly quoted and understood by apostle Peter at Pentecosta !
..........................................................................................................

Now , we are able to understand correctly God's words in Psalm 110:1,2
1. The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

2. The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;
you will rule in the midst of your enemies.

God said to Jesus "sit at my right hand" that is
--to sit on throne and to use/exercise "all power recently received" IN THE HEAVEN , ruling as KING ,
--BUT to wait regarding the earth " until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." !

How so ?

As Jesus taught us already , in Heaven were not enemy at His exalting moment , they were OUT OF HEAVEN !
OUT of the place were the Kingdom was ruling !

BUT WHERE were they ?


--ON EARTH -- the visible enemies ,
-- and "in heavenly realms" the invisible ones , as ap.Paul said in Ephesians 6 :
12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,
against the powers of this dark world and against the
spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Well, are not this "heavenly realms" "the Heaven" where the Kingdom is ?
NOT !
As it was already proved , THE HEAVEN where God's Kingdom is ruling , is "before the Lord" and Devil with his followers are somewhere FAR AWAY (beyond) FROM THAT PLACE !

Now we see that the following God's words "until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
... referes to the time and situation when YHWH will give both the permission and the commandment to His King to START REIGNING OVER THE EARTH , where the enemies are now !

That action of His starting reigning over earth is prophetically shown by the words "Christ returning" or "Christ's (second)coming".

These knowledges debated here are necessaries for further understanding of other prophetical passages and prophecies which are to happen on earth , as the Revelation 12 , for instance .

Because Christ started ruling in Heaven immediately after his ressurection , according to the"teaching of Christ", there is no place for such interpretations which leads to conclusions as 1874 or 1914 or other years as the time for Christ starting to rule in Heaven.

with great respect for Jehovah, and His enthroned King , Jesus Christ ,

rus virgil .

I feel the need and I see the necesity to go ahead in speaking the things I understand....

when the man of God approaches on Bible's prophecies he must understand some of the things about God who "uttered" them

1)
proverbs 25 :
2. It is the glory of God to conceal a thing;
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. ASV

2. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;
to search out a matter is the glory of kings. NIV

clearly we see the way God have done His prophecies , by "concealing" their meaning/understanding .
......................

2)
Job 34 :
29. When he giveth quietness, who then can condemn?
And when he hideth his face, who then can behold him?
Alike whether it be done unto a nation, or unto a man: ASV

we see that God has two kind of "relationship" with men :
- individually , or He "works" with (only) a man
and
- colectivelly as a "people" or a "nation"/He works with/within the entire nation as "one"

from the above scripture we may understand that God may be "wrathfull" on/over a nation/people , but in the meantime be in "peacefull relationship" with an individual of that people/nation .

example : God became wrathfull over Jews as the entire nation and delivered them to Babylonians ,
while He had a peacefull relationship with Daniel and his 3 friends , taking care of them (but the fact that God took care of them doesn't mean they weren't taken captive ...as members of that nation )
........................

3)
Job 33
14 For God does speak
— now one way, now another —
though man may not perceive it. ASV

we see that God may and surely He did speak "now a way" then in "another way" , but regarding the same things/events/situations/etc.

firstly, God is speaking this way because of His glory of "concealing" the things

secondly, the truth/ the way God is seeing the realities from His high point of view is so deep and so complex , that is necessary to be spoken about it in many/several ways as to reveal more or all aspects of it
let us see an example
to Gog of Magog Jehovah has said...Ezekiel 38
17. " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel?
At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.

well, Jehovah has spoken about him (Gog) through His (several) prophets , but where ?
I will tell you here only one (other) prophet : Isaiah 14:1-19.
please give attention to the verse 16 :
16 They that see thee shall gaze at thee, they shall consider thee, saying,
Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;...?

.......................

4)
it comes again to be repeated the importance God , the Father, is giving to the "teaching of Christ"
see the first post on this topic ...

God is setting His own order as the way of interpreting His own prophecies
-- while all God's word is truth , and it (OT) forms the "ground" for the teachings of Jesus ,
-- the Father decided and ordered that we must obey His Son / Matt.17:5 ... by these words He emphasises Jesus teachings as "the foundation" for further understandings from prophecies

indeed , through Jesus, the Father has teached us something new :
-- He is spirit , and He wants "worshipers with spirit and with truth"
that implies a "way" of taking/considering the prophecies , "with spirit" , or "according to Father's will"
-- Jesus is come "to fulfil ... the prophecies" / that means the prophecies does have their fulfilment "in Christ"

at that point I want to say that during the time , many christians have seen many similarities between different prophetic parts ... and events of the world, and they concluded that that was the "interpretation" or the "fulfilment" of that prophecy ..
this way of reasoning have produced many errors in which both Bible Students , as also Jehovah's witnesses are continuing untill today !

will be continued,

in Christ,
rus v.

Hello rus v,

Is this a teaching of Christ?

Revelation 1
1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.


and was it written by the same John who wrote this:


9. "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son." 2 John



In Christ

abe

continuation ...

5)
1 Samuel 16
7. (But Jehovah said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him )
for Jehovah seeth not as man seeth;
for man looketh on the outward appearance,
but Jehovah looketh on the heart.

we must attentively consider the above statement when searching the prophecies
there may be men/peoples living within His people , but God is addressing to them as "his enemies" , and they are , because God is seeing their hearth / pay attention to that .

================================

furthermore,

We find written by Paul ... (1 Tess. 5 )

20. do not treat prophecies with contempt.
21. Test everything. Hold on to the good.
22. Avoid every kind of evil.
NIV

20. Do not spurn the gifts and utterances of the prophets [do not depreciate prophetic revelations nor despise inspired instruction or exhortation or warning].
21. But test and prove all things [until you can recognize] what is good; [to that] hold fast.
22. Abstain from evil [shrink from it and keep aloof from it] in whatever form or whatever kind it may be.
Amplified B.

I quoted the second trans. because it seems to exprime better some thoughts
-- while God has decided that the prophecies will happen during "the latter days" , the inspired instruction to the christians was to "do not treat prophecies with contempt", but to "test everything and hold on the good".

this was a real hard thing to do, for christians , considering that before of coming the real fulfilment foreseen by God, many situations arised (in the world) which could be easily likened to the (litera of) prophecies..

but the simple fact that they resemble , doesn't mean that that is the "truth", or the fulfilment "with spirit and with truth" which can help our worship to Father

and so, the christians should "wait" until they could recognise that they have the good/real meaning of the prophecy

Here is to be told that
it is God the One who did/uttered the prophecies,

and Who is watching over them to be fulfiled -- Jeremiah 1:11,12.

and Who did established the frame and the time of their fulfilment
as He aknowledged His servant Daniel about that (chapter 10 )

14. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall
-- thy people
-- in the latter days;
for the vision is yet for many days:

Going to Jesus, we find that by his statement "your word is truth",
Jesus himself has given the real importance for us regarding the Fathers' "rule" of interpreting the prophecies ,
through the fact that he/Jesus obeyed it ! and used it !

Never had Jesus spoke any tale/report regarding the world's powers of that time , as fulfilling some part of any prophecie ,
BUT he did used parts of Daniel prophecies when speaking/prophetising regarding the events occuring at or previous of his (second) coming
see Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:24.

both by his words and by his way of using Daniel's prophecies,
Jesus did settled (as valid truth) God's word in Daniel 10:14 !

this is something we must obey, as our Father has commanded
"Listen to him !"

in Christ,
rus v.

Dear Brother,

here we arrive at an important point

the same John has (by inspiration) said that (chapter 1 )

17. For the law was given through Moses;
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

here John was reffering to the teaching God has sent to us through His Son when he was on earth (son of man)

and the above statement, together with God's command "Listen to him"
does settle the fact that the teachings/truth spoken/told/taught by Jesus when on earth is, or forms the basis/foundation for the further revelations from God's word

Indeed, the Revelation came from Jesus Christ ,
BUT it is a prophecy (which has to be understood) ,
more than that , Revelation is a "conclusion of all prophecies" (mine expression)

and it cannot be well understood before knowing the teachings Jesus taught on earth , and also some of the "old prophecies" regarding God's people

if not respecting this order , the result surely will be a disastruous one .

here I will give an valid example
Bible searchers , taking in consideration Psalm 110:1 .. and Rev 12 :7-12 and other prophecies ,
have concluded that the Kingdom of God has started in Heavens in 1914 with the coronation of Jesus,
and with Satan's trowing down from Heaven,
and that was the "second coming" , and Jesus starting to rule "in the midst of his enemies"...etc...


well , if we really do obey Father ,
and take Jesus teachings as truth, and believe them ,
then the conclusion will be other :

see it at the fourth post on this topic !

in Christ,
rus v.

Bro rus,

It seems to me that some contentions do exist over what Jesus Christ said in the Gospels.

Future tense or past tense?

Was Jesus waiting or ruling?

The Book of Revelation is a message (teaching) from Jesus Christ which breaks those contentions.

It is a book of revealing (revelation) of what was previously said.

Jesus Christ sent a teaching through his Apostle John for his slaves about what would "shortly take place". (in signs)

It would be a disaster to ignore this important teaching from Jesus Christ.

If it is ignored then the meaning of everything else he said (listen to him) will not be properly revealed (revelation).

Revelation
3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

Did you observe?

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place

It would be a disaster to not observe Jesus Christs revelation.

Otherwise how could a person remain in the teaching during the latter days.


I am happy to observe these things.


In Christ

abe

Quoting Abe,

Revelation
3 Happy is he reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

Did you observe?

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place

It would be a disaster to not observe Jesus Christs revelation.

Otherwise how could a person remain in the teaching during the latter days.


I am happy to observe these things.


In Christ

abe

I did see and observe.I saw what John saw, and was given the same testimonial visions John saw.

to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place means what it says...to show through visions God's Truth., by the God Of Truth. These visons opened my eyes and took the scales off them,. and I no longer need men's teachings. This is the fire of the Holy Spirit that opens blind eyes. This fire baptism cannot happen to stained hearts,. but through cleansed hearts, and only through the grace of God, but first you must decide to put all your faith in God and only give glory and worship to him alone,. You must cut off your head with an ax, anotherwords, cut off all teachings of this earth, let it all go,. a death to it,.and only hear Christ's voice,. leading you back to the Father.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I and the father are one

(They are Truth alone)

Isaiah 25

1. O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are Faithfulness and Truth

you cannot be faithful to Him without His Truth. You cannot be called by His name,. and the name of His Father in Heaven without walking alone in Him,.

faith=truth
you cannot have truth without complete faith. Let it all go and see what happens. Trust in Him to carry you,. Why do we make things hard on ourselves? It is simple, follow Christ.

In Christ our King,.
:heartbeat:
New Heart

God spoke to me in a vision, in a cloud, on a mountain. He wrote my new name on a clear white stone with lighning from His finger, which read....

"NOT ONLY SHALL YOU BE CALLED FAITHFUL, BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED ,"FAITHFUL AND TRUTH."


http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/j...57C7914D30
I am not crazy.

"Here's to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The trouble-makers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status-quo. You can quote them. Disagree with them. Glorify, or villify them. But the only thing you can't do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do."-Jack Kerouac

Bro rus,

From your posts I can see that you have a very stong faith in Jesus Christ our King.

You can also see through the many transgressions of the Watchtower Society and have realised these things ARE fulfilling bible prophecy in the latter days.

There are only a very few people on the earth who believe the same things, a small remnant.

You are therefore a very precious brother to me who is doing a special work in these latter days.

I feel compelled to continue searching for truth and knowledge as this is a recommend thing in the scriptures.

To keep on the watch and stay awake.

I also realise that all the words I say will be judged.

It is therefore very important for me to speak words of truth that can always be supported by the things Jesus Christ gave us.

This is a command from Jehovah:

Zechariah 8
16 “‘These are the things that YOU people should do: Speak truthfully with one another. With truth and the judgment of peace do YOUR judging in YOUR gates.

You will easily find many people in the world who will dispute simply for the sake of having a dispute with no regard for what might actually be the truth.

This is a big mistake.

It is one of the seven things that Jehovah hates, sending forth contentions amoung brothers. (Pr 6:19)

I have examined everything you wrote.

Please examine my replies and see that I have spoken truthfully with you.



In Christ


abe

Dear Abe,
I thank you because you consider me your brother !

I have to say , if I speak the truth is not because of my own wisdom , but because God is helping me to understand things (Biblical explanation) spoken first by other brother , namely Sas Gavril.
I am convinced Jehovah has assigned to him a "special work" pre-figured in prohecies by Elijah .
About these things I have given testimony from the time I could have acces to the internet , about 3/three years before .

A certain person on this forum, speaking about "Elijah" has exprimed that he is expecting the aparition of Elijah with all signs the old Elijah's has performed ( I think making the literal fire to come down from heaven...etc.)

but let's see how was the manifestation of "Elijah" in the Jesus time ...

Now, Jesus has aknowledged/confirmed that John the Baptist was , in fact, Elijah of His time ....Matthew 17:11-13.

the question arises here : what kind of "miracles" has John the B. done/performed ?
some literally fire from heaven? or stoping the rain over the country ?

No , his "work" was to make God's people conscious about the fact that the way they "obey" God is not what God requires from them (to keep the law)
and that the people has to repent before God , and also, to simbolise their repentance by baptism ,

and through his words... " 7. .. "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
8. Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham."
...he revealed that their state of heart before their God was unclean,
and that a high measure of "hypocrisy" was caracterising that generation , an hipocrisy and lawlesness manifested even unto the Temple .

The same situation is with the present Elijah , no phisical signs or "fire from heaven" ,
other than the "spiritual fire" (Isaiah 66:16),
that means that God, through the Spirit of the Truth has helped this man to understand
all prophecies or parts of prophecies
which were sealed until now ,
which reveals the state of hypocrisy and lawlessness manifested through/within God's people on earth at the latter days ,
and which is manifested in itself Temple of God through/by that group of men called "the man of lawlessness" (MOL) ,
events that had to occur before of the manifestation/presence as "Son of man" of our Lord Jesus Christ

his writings in romanian are here
http://www.grupcaleasfanta.ro/admin/1.php?do=archives

So, brother Abe you may count firstly bro. Sas as your brother, and then me .

The works/explanation of bro. Sas are somehow harder to understand, so what I do is to do an "introduction" of his works in English

I consider I understand the truth when I can answer the question "why this thing is so/like that ?" with Bible arguments

doing so, I have observed that God has settled a certain order in His word, by giving the first importance to the knowledge He sent on earth through His Son
the apostle Paul agrees with that when saying
(Hebrews 1 ) 1. In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2. but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,
whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

the apostles had no power/authorithy to change Jesus teaching , only to strenghten it, and to build upon it

furthermore , God's interpretation of His own word/prophecies does not change the teaching of Christ , but is founded/based on it, and built on it

and any prophecy' interpretation which at the end does change some of Jesus teachings is NOT from God, but of "private interpretation" see 2Peter 1:20 .

here I have to end my post,

in Christ,
rus v.

Bro Rus,

The scriptures do not entirely agree with what you are saying here.

I believe that any private interpretation of scripture made earlier will eventually be corrected later.

The Book of Revelation which is a teaching of Jesus Christ says this:

Revelation 10
“There will be no delay any longer; 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.”

The Good News that Jesus Christ taught earlier contains a sacred secret which the Book of Revelation, a teaching of Christ, helps us to understand later.

Daniel was also told the same:

Daniel 12
9 And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.

The things Jesus Christ said earlier will be completely understood at the time of the end.

The interpretation made at the end will expose the interpretations made at an earlier time as being private interpretations and not from God.

This is what the word "revelation" means.

This revelation is a teaching of Jesus Christ which he gave us (slaves) many years after his ressurection so that the the sacred secret of God according to the good news will be understood at the end.

This is the purpose of Jesus Christ's revelation to John.

It is his later teaching which helps us understand his earlier teachings.

This revelation of Jesus Christ is a later teaching which cannot conflict with his earlier teachings.

Otherwise you would have to say that Jesus Christ is wrong.

That would be a big mistake, a disaster!

So if there is any private interpretation made about his earlier teachings such as, future tense/past tense, ruling/waiting, they will be understood by his later teaching, his revelation.


In Christ

abe

Bro Abe,
I am not sure if I understand corectly your answer

and I think it is because I did not exprime myself well my thoughts ...
my words were

I didn't mean that a wrong interpretation is changing the teaching of Christ ...only at the "time of the end"
I will try to re-formulate my thought

"and any interpretation (of a certain prophecie) which has as result the twisting of some of Jesus teaching , is not from God , but of private interpretation"

now, the men are not able to see "the end of something" from the begining ,
so our "forefathers" in faith , I mean the faithfull christians during Russell and Rutherford time were not able to see how disastrous will be their "private interpretations" which they added to the clear teachings of the Bible , and they "walked" in the "light" of their own interpretations almost all their life .

I add here , they are forgivable , exctly because they weren't conciently about that .

Now, God has promised that (at the time of the end - the judgement day) He will "shake everything", as written in Hebrew 12
26. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised,
"Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."
27. The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—
so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
29. for our "God is a consuming fire."

From the above words we can see clear that God's purpose (at the "end" , or day of judgement ) is ,
that by shakening,
to remove all created things (and teachings , which are not firmly established on "the teaching of Christ" ) ,
in order for the "well and correctly based teachings" to remain ,-
because they are necessary for us in order to "worship God acceptably, with reverence and awe",
and because only this way we are "receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken" !

we see that "the kingdom that cannot be shaken" is, or "stands" according to teachings "that cannot be shaken"
(I hope that I could exprimed understandeable my thoughts here)

We are living (already) the time when God is shakening - with His voice - all things (teachings) that can be shaken , and proves them as false , and belonging to the Babylon (which produces confusion) - the day of judgement
and His clear requirement to us is
-- to avoid everything is (proved) unclean
-- to "come out" from Babylon

If a "christian" doesn't want to leave all what God proves to be false , and keep to them , his position is "full accountable" before God , and so, unforgiveable .

The warning is here
25. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.
If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth,
how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

in Christ,
rus v.

Bro rus,

Then let me try once again.

I believe that both Jesus Christs earlier teachings and his later teachings are correct.

That depends entirely on interpretation of scripture.

I interpret future tense and waiting.

Your interpretation is past tense and ruling.

They are very different interpretations.

With my interpretation I can say that his earlier teachings are correct!

I can say that his later teachings are also correct!

With your interpretation you can say his earlier teachings are correct!

But, you have to say that his later teachings are wrong!

The outcome is based only on interpretations.

I prefer my interpretation because I do not have to say that Jesus Christ is wrong.


I do not have to "refuse him who speaks" with my interpretation.


Therefore if one of the interpretations is from God.

and

The other is private.


Which one do I choose?


I choose the one where I do not have to refuse Jesus Christ.

Him who speaks.


Jehovah said; "This is my son, listen to him".


Is there someone else more important that I should listen to?


What is his name?


Should I prefer his teaching and refuse Jesus Christ?


I hope you are not asking me to do this.


In Christ

abe