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The purpose of this essay is to make the case that death is natural to human life and will always remain that way. Just to clarify, I am not talking about a spiritual or symbolic death. I mean the real thing. Ceasing to exist as a human being. The end of physical life. And I am not talking about death through sickness, diseases, and other things that cause premature or accidental death. Nor am I saying that we are supposed to live only 70 or 80 years. I am merely saying that all physical forms of life, because of their nature, will eventually die.

The first evidence for this is in God's creation. In Genesis, when God creates all living things, he gives his work a big stamp of approval (Gen 1:31). Everything is good, exactly how he wants it to be. Now, was death part of nature at that time? It most certainly was. The plants and the animals had finite lives right from the very beginning (cf. Gen 3:21), as they do today. All things eventually die. Why should we think that we humans are different in that sense? We're made from the same perishable materials.

Do some people believe we will not die because God told Adam that he would die if he ate from the tree of knowledge, thus implying that if he obeyed he would not die?

That could only be the case if God told Adam that disobedience would result in a natural death, a death by old age, but the death God spoke of could hardly be that sort, if it was caused by eating a fruit.

Some people say that human nature underwent a radical change after Adam's first transgression. I cannot fathom such an idea. Is it really so that Adam's DNA, his genetic blueprint, was altered when he reached his hand out and took the fruit and took a bite? This seems to me a ridiculous notion, and, if true, is a fact of which we might with reason expect to find some record in the Bible. We, however, look in vain for it. The Genesis narrative says nothing of such a change. Adam and Eve received punishments. But no curse was uttered upon them. Even if it could be maintained that the humans' circumstances or condition on earth were modified by Adam's sin, still this would prove nothing with regard to his nature, nor can it be pretended that there is the slightest allusion in the Bible to the change of his nature as a historical fact.

But, some might argue, the change of human nature is inferred from the earliness and frequency of human sin ever since Adam, from the fact that sins are among the first acts we do. But the eating of the forbidden fruit is the only recorded act of Adam's and Eve's use of their moral sensibilities. They yielded to the first temptation they had, even though they were surrounded by what seemed to be motives to obedience. Certainly there never was a first sin so flagrant, or so difficult to be accounted for, as theirs. They were allowed to eat of every other tree in the garden! The direct voice of God had commanded them not to eat of this! Gratitude, hope, fear, all these should have ensured their obedience. But they sinned as soon as they were tempted! They sound a lot like us! Their sin was of the same kind as most of the sins of their descendants. In other words, they yielded good principles to impulse, they seized momentary gratification, without much thought. If OUR sins prove that WE are by nature sinful and imperfect, then equally does the first transgression of Adam and Eve prove that they had the same nature.

(For more on the Adam and Eve punishment, see this thread: http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...php?tid=22)

We all know that death is the payment for sin (Rom. 6:23; James 1:14-15). If we, by nature, are sinful and imperfect, we will always die. There is not a smidgeon of a scripture that says that we will achieve perfection on earth, or that we will be sinless on earth. Instead we are told over and over that humans are sinful (Rom. 3:23).

But what about this one?

"The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it" (Ps 37:29).

I think we have to take the word "righteous" in the same sense that it is usually used in the OT. The "righteous" are those who are declared righteous by faith, but not ones who are righteous in the strict sense (i,e, perfect, sinless). Many of the OT figures are called "righteous," but we are told that they were only counted as righteous because of their faith (Gal 3:6; Rom. 4:5). I think the word is being used in Psalms this way too.

Now, some might say--the Bible promises everlasting life. Surely this proves that humans one day will not die of old age.

However, whenever the Bible writers go into any detail about everlasting life, it seems to refer either to spiritual life here on earth (and is thus figurative) or life as a spirit in heaven.

Time and time again we are told that the hope we have is the resurrection from the dead. By its very description, the resurrection is only for those who have died. And yes, after the resurrection we inherit everlasting life, but this always seems to be in a heavenly context. Paul makes it clear that the conquest of death is realized in the heavenly resurrection (1 Cor. 15). In other words, death does not take us, because we will be immediately changed to spirit life.

So this is why I have a hard time believing that we will gain everlasting life on earth. I don't think it's possible for a human body (or any physical body) to live forever, nor do I think the Bible teaches this.
I don't think the fallen human body can live forever, but the resurrected body can, and will. It corresponds to Jesus body, which is a spirit driven physical body.

The scriptures seem to indicate that humans are not happy apart from their bodies.

2 Cor 5:1-4
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this {house} we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
(NAU)


Rev 6:9-11
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until {the number of} their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
(NAU)

Derek

Hi Don,
I agree with the first part of what you said that death is natural.

IMO:
Believing otherwise requires a very literal interpretation of the Creation account. The only viable approach that would fit is a belief in six literal days of creation. :)

See the recent thread on predation.

I cannot believe a loving God created disease and predation when Adam sinned, it is part of the natural order.

Adam and Eve were spiritual 'animals' in a special Sonship relationship with God enjoyed by no other creatures.

They died spiritually immediately when they sinned and lost their relationship with YHWH.  Had they continued to love God as those who love Christ now, then God would have sustained their spiritual life and no doubt their physical function as well.

I believe the recreation of humans is God's purpose....re-Paul's words.  It appeared to be thwarted in Eden...but not so. In Christ it will come to fruition and the earth will change, to be what it never was, how God intends it to be.

Peace and well being to you and all
Derek
Genesis 3:4...

"At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die."

Was Eve under the impression that she would die? What was lie that was presented to her?

gogh Wrote:
Genesis 3:4...

"At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die."

Was Eve under the impression that she would die?


Before or after the serpent said this?

Actually, it's irrelevant, because the death spoken of here is not, in my opinion, death by old age.

Quote:
What was the lie that was presented to her?


What lie?

Hi Donbodo,

I enjoyed this essay...I have a 'niggle' that Adam may have been a sinner from his beginning.

Let me toss some ideas....let me know if your interested in pursuing them.

Adam was 'formed' from the ground outside the garden. God put Adam in the garden of Eden, Gen 2:15. Adam and Eve were naked yet they weren't ashamed. Gen. 2:25. This is something I have always questioned. The word naked comes from the root word 'aram which means to be crafty.... and is from the same root word used to descibe the serpent. Thier not being ashamed, may mean they didn't feel guilt. IOW's, they may have been under grace...they were in the garden of Eden, compare Rev. 2:7.

Gen. 3:23, has God expelling them from the garden in the same day Adam ate from the tree. The garden was a place of protection for Adam...death is outside the garden. Of course, I'm getting a little off topic (as usual)...that the death Adam experienced the day he ate from the tree was spiritual and, he and his decendants went to Sheol after thier physical deaths.

But, if Adam was under some type of grace and not his own righteousness (perfection/sinless) it may help to clear up the Adam was never to die physically doctrine. Just some convoluted thoughts....
Hi iknowhim,

Quote:
I don't think the fallen human body can live forever, but the resurrected body can, and will. It corresponds to Jesus body, which is a spirit driven physical body.


Lazarus and many others were resurrected in a physical body. Why didn't they experience living forever in it? Jesus's resurrection was all about saving mankind through grace. His resurrection was spiritual. What spirit driven body are you considering...before or after Jesus's resurrection?

There are several accounts in the Bible that speak of angels, (even God) visiting mankind here on the earth. They ate and drank but, that didn't mean they were human. Remember the 3 visitors Abraham had?

Hi Don, thanks for the essay,

I too tend to believe that death is natural and part of God's plan for the very beginning. I also don't believe in the illustration of Adam being a baking pan with a dent and as such we the loaves have a defect or are born imperfect.

Salaam, Lou
Donbodo, you said:

Quote:
The purpose of this essay is to make the case that death is natural to human life and will always remain that way. Just to clarify, I am not talking about a spiritual or symbolic death. I mean the real thing. Ceasing to exist as a human being. The end of physical life. And I am not talking about death through sickness, diseases, and other things that cause premature or accidental death. Nor am I saying that we are supposed to live only 70 or 80 years. I am merely saying that all physical forms of life, because of their nature, will eventually die.


Bro!:hibye: I searched the preceding quote of yours to see if you had in mind the fact that God created man in his image...male and female. (Gen 1:26-28). Luke 3:38 confirms that Adam was a son of God. Perhaps you had this thought in mind and merely forgot to include it. But wouldn't the fact that God doesn't die mean that he did not intend for his earthly sons to die....that is, if they remained faithful.

The animals were not under any test of obedience. They die because they were not created in God's image. As Peter said in 2 Peter 2:12-13:

"But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, will, in the things of which they are ignorant and speak abusively, even suffer destruction in their own [course of] destruction, wronging themselves as a reward for wrongdoing."

I won't get too fancy with you at this point....I just find your approach difficult to match up with scripture. Perhaps I've misunderstood you.:whistle:

Love, Rez:giverose:

Dear Rez,

Thanks for your thoughts. God's image--well, what does that mean, exactly? Someone could argue that, if we are in God's image, we should be spirits, because God is too. But that's not the case, so we can't be like God in every way. It's not clear exactly how we are like God. So I wouldn't push the scripture too far.

The scripture you quoted speaks of animals being "destroyed," not of their dying of old age.

When God put humans in the Garden of Eden, he held back two things from them (though I assume this was a temporary arrangment). He held back the knowledge of good and evil, and he held back eternal life. The two trees represent these two things. So we were just like the animals, until we got the knowledge of good and evil. No longer were we unreasoning. But we never got the tree of life. Only later, did God hold that promise out to us.

Think of it this way. When Adam and Eve got the knowledge of good and evil, God said (apparently to the angels), "He has become like one of us." It makes sense to think of him saying the same thing when we get eternal life. In other words, our eternal life is the same eternal life that the spirits in heaven have.
Well...who knows the power of faith? A&E lost faith in Jehovah when da debil created doubt. Jesus said that great things were possible if one had even a minute amount of faith.

The flesh is just the flesh without faith. With faith, who knows? Anybody been there?

gus

donbodo Wrote:
We all know that death is the payment for sin (Rom. 6:23; James 1:14-15). If we, by nature, are sinful and imperfect, we will always die. There is not a smidgeon of a scripture that says that we will achieve perfection on earth, or that we will be sinless on earth. Instead we are told over and over that humans are sinful (Rom. 3:23).

But what about this one?

"The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it" (Ps 37:29).

I think we have to take the word "righteous" in the same sense that it is usually used in the OT. The "righteous" are those who are declared righteous by faith, but not ones who are righteous in the strict sense (i,e, perfect, sinless). Many of the OT figures are called "righteous," but we are told that they were only counted as righteous because of their faith (Gal 3:6; Rom. 4:5). I think the word is being used in Psalms this way too.

:confused::shocked::scratchhead:I'm going to stop quoting you at this point because in my simple pea-brain, I cannot fathom where you are going with this. All you've succeeded in making me feel like is an idiot for taking the Bible at face value.

Donbodo, do you really, honestly believe what you’ve written? And you others who found this “interesting”— Are you serious?

So what about Paul’s words at Romans 5:12-14? “That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—??? For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law.  Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.”

Hello? Now I know there are others out there that might think it astute to suggest that Paul might go so deep as to lose the rest of us while understanding your clandestine form of reasoning, but I say—where are your heads? If we are to reach such conclusions as you on this long and winding road of reasoning you've chosen here, where will the poor simpleton fair in his or her search for truth? Again, you are putting some sort of 'higher learning' on the pedestal of necessary belief.

But then, perhaps you were joking. I hope so. All I ask is that you’ll soon relieve us all by ending this thread by taking your tongue out of your cheek.

Sincerely,

sw

1 Corinthians 3:18-20


18 Let no one be seducing himself: If anyone among YOU thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.” 20 And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.”

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

smoldering wick Wrote:
Donbodo, do you really, honestly believe what you’ve written? And you others who found this “interesting”— Are you serious?


Yes, of course.

Quote:
So what about Paul’s words at Romans 5:12-14? “That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—??? For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.”


What about it? Does Paul say that we will stop sinning or that our physical bodies will never die? I'm not sure what you are pointing out.

Quote:
Where are your heads? If we are to reach such conclusions as you on this long and winding road of reasoning you've chosen here, where will the poor simpleton fair in his or her search for truth? Again, you are putting some sort of 'higher learning' on the pedestal of necessary belief.


I think what I was said was very straightforward and simple. There was no long and winding road. We have always been sinners, and sinners die. What's so strange about that? Where did I bring in "higher learning"? I looked at the scriptures, saw what they said, and said "okay."

By the way, the only "necessary belief" is faith in Christ.

No donbodo ... the only necessary belief is in Christ as revealed in the length and breadth and depth of the truth as revealed in the Bible. It must be scripturally sound. You are on the road of departure from what is sound. Sorry.
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