Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

At the time of typing, see you are still online David to see how we react.

Now try doing some Bible reading David, and stop boring us to death. I know there is a brain there and I suspect you can be interesting. I hate using the scroll button so much.....wears it out.

Let's encourage, drop the pretentiousness and silly words like ecumenical, eschatology or any other scatology.

1 Cor. 15:24 'the last enemy death is to be abolished'.
Doesn't sound natural to me. Are you saying God created this enemy?

vicky

Your statement that we must have the "length and breadth and depth of the truth" is itself not scripturally sound. No scripture says we must know all the Bible's truths in order to be saved. Come on now. Are you telling me that if someone believes, say, in the Trinity, he or she will not be saved?

Donbodo .The arguments you present are well thought out but they represent an inti Christ argument because if man was always sinful then Christs death was pointles . There have been a number of complaints about this thread I have to tell you so it is being watched .
Remember that without law there isnt really any sin . There are serveral ways scientificaly backed up that can exsplain a change in mans nature because of the actions of Adam and Eve .

Dear Seraphim,

I don't believe Christ's death was pointless. He died because we are sinners, right? So what does Adam and Eve have to do with it? As sinners, they needed Christ to die for them too.

I am very interested in hearing about the scientific evidence that can explain the change in Adam and Eve's nature. Can you show me where to find it?

Well...maybe if Adam hadn't broken faith with Jah, it would have been interesting to see if he'd have died anyway, as Don proposes. I kinda doubt he would have. Thing is, my puny little IQ can't wrap itself around the idea that death is "natural"...and that's good enough for me. It isn't and you can't convince me otherwise. If it was natural, me and Mr Smith and Mr Wesson would have had us a little palaver quite awhile back.

gus

Ok the first scientific argument lies in the recent dicovery that humans do not simply carry their genes like a vehicle to the next generation unchanged but that people change their own genetic structure based on their life choices and environmental factors. It's called epigenetics.
Type it in to google and lots of info will come up.

The second argument based on scientific understanding is to do with the information copying process of genes themselves. Basically its to do with the inevitable errors that creep into the genes every time they are copied from one generation to the next.  This is a natural process.

Radiation is not the reason why this happens but can add to it. The reason lies in the field of quantum mechanics. Simply put the natural factors that repair any errors cannot naturaly do a perfect job thus a steady but exstremly slow degradation of DNA happends over time. Hence the design of Humans seems to only work only in connection with the holy spirit in the equation. This also would explain why humans die in earthquakes and volcanoes, lightning strikes ect. There is no holy spirit protecting us from these natural things .

They are all completly natural with nothing wrong with the design it self but when man sinned Jehovah took some of his holy spirit away hence sin caused death and inpefection . It seems that a supernatural force is needed to protect man from accidents and death in a perfect world . The holy spirit fits the bill nicely . Because Christ was in this world and was perfect didnt stop the need for him to have angels protecting him from an accidental death . Christ was in a world that was not protected by Jehovahs spirit against random or quantum events to the full degree hence angels were needed on behalf of Christ .

This probably exspaines why mans nature changed after his sin . Genes affect people personalitys and abilitys so any damage to this would also affect man ability to hit the marks Jehovah laid down . So now man cant always do so but misses the mark often which is the definistion of sin . If one is born with a damaged middle ear then one cant walk in a straight line . The same must be true of so many other things that genes control .

That's all very interesting, Seraphim. Somehow I don't think you got all that stuff about the holy spirit in scientific journals. Is that a personal theory of yours? It amounts to quite a bit of midrash. Looks like a chapter of Genesis fell out of the Bible. :D I think my interpretation requires fewer additions to the biblical text.

By the way, "epigenetics" refers to any process that alters gene activity without changing the DNA sequence. So I don't think that fits into your interpretation. In other words, it has no bearing on how one's children turn out. It only affects gene activity inside of you. And what drives is it exposure to certain substances, like heavy metals, pesticides, diesel exhaust, tobacco smoke, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, hormones, radioactivity, viruses, bacteria, and basic nutrients. I couldn't find anything in there about "life choices," except if those choices exposed a person to these substances.

Agreed Guster.

Speaking as someone who lost a husband to cancer, mother to a surgical mishap and best friend to an unknown congenital defect with the one and only "symptom" being sudden death, all within a 4 year period, I am insulted by anyone who would then have the audacity to tell me that death is natural. Either you have never lost someone you were close to, don't give a rat's behind about anyone else on the planet or are just a general lout trying to solicit a reaction. How dare you marginalize the end of any human life and those of us who mourn it.

Whatever your reasoning, you can kiss my general scatalogical region.

The second argument is my own but is based on resonable ideas with  scientific priciples that are proven to be true .

I advise you to do more research on epigenetics . For instance it exsplains why if a small woman has a child with a large man there will be no danger of the baby getting stuck in the bith canal when its born . Even though the child may well grow up to be as big or bigger than the father the genes controling the babys development "know" to limit its size before bith . This can only be explained in an epigenetic way . As for life choices causing changes in ones DNA i see no reason why that would not be the case . The data comming in now is painting a picture that humans are custondians of there DNA not blind carriers .

As for a chapter of Genesis falling out I find that interesting as a chapter of Daniel fell out . Thats for another time .

What about the incredible storage of the human brain . Did you know that the possible number of connections possible in the human brain between its neurons is more than the number of atoms in the whole universe ? If humans were not going to live indefinity then why the massive over design? Why then have scientists been able to switch the ageing process off for human skin cells in a petry dish? Why was the body created in such a way that cells replace themselves when they die if this process was never going to be allowed to continue indefinitly for any living thing? If Adam was created as a sinner then are you are saying that Christ was created to die ? Death is described as an enemy. Does Jehovah create such enemys? Why would Jehovah create lightning only to have to stop it from striking man? Was there somthing wrong with his design? What about meteorites for that matter or freak waves ? The only resonable answer requires an added element to the world that would prevent accidents like these and that is resonably the holy spirit . Even if you were right and all men were supposed to die it doesnt follow that man would be in a world where he could be bitten by snakes or fall and be mamed or killed ect ect .


Your reasoning is faulty is my view. Man may well become more in the distant future but for the next few billions of years it is here on earth for sure . Not perhaps for all but for most. Even Zion descends to the earth from heaven.

We age because every time our cells reproduce we loose a bit of our telomeres.
Good news, the body produces telomerase, which can rebuild telomeres.
Scientists are looking into this. Are you trying to say that if scientists can reduce old age, they will be able to do what God couldn't?

Are you saying God deliberately created us with love and affection for our fellow man, knowing we would watch our loved ones wear out and die?

What kind of god do you worship?

Don, what little faith you have in Jehovah:shocked::rant:
He can do anything , if you think so or not. He created the human body to live forever and it will

:shocked: Death is THE most UNatural thing.... Have you never lost a loved one to death, Don?
My grandfather died when I was 6 - my Dad when I was 10. My grandmother lived to be 97 and was in good overall health but her heart just wore out.... My son was born in 1986 with congenital heart defects and died after serving as an experimental guinea pig for 11 days. My mother died in 2001. All my aunts and uncles are gone - my generation is now the 'older generation' in our family. I'm staring down my own eventuality and I hate it. There ain't nothin' graceful about gettin' old. :thinking:
I can't remember a time when death didn't affect me adversely. I hate what Paul calls 'the last sting'. And who's doing the stinging? Not God, but his adversary. Christ died to overcome death and foil Satan's plan. I believe it. What we'll be in 'the real life' ahead - only God knows. We can trust Him tho' - His ways are perfect in righteousness and I'm sure He has some pretty awesome surprises in store for us all - hallelujah!
I tried to find that scripture about God putting everlasting life in our hearts, but couldn't - must not be looking for the right words - but that is how I feel, and God put that in my head. We yearn for our lost youth, and to live and breathe on this planet as long as possible - we cling to life desperately till our last gasp, fighting and kicking all the way. Death is not natural - "...and death, mourning and outcry will be NO MORE!" Hallelujah again, with feeling! :yahoo:
My 2 cents to add to the pocket change - lol.

Well Don,

This is a good topic for those of us who wish to prove what GOD wants. Which is somewhat futile. As he has given us only a glimpse of what he can do. Let's see a few small things like set the foundations of the universe, create sustainable power for millenia, create the perfect environment for this fleshly life.

You use the argument for death as “If we, by nature, are sinful and imperfect, we will always die.”
I say the scriptures point to us as being made perfect.
just a few..
1cor13:8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Philippians 3:12
[ Pressing on Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Hebrews 7:11
[ Jesus Like Melchizedek ] If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

So okay you say the cycle of death is natural. so is the cycle called regeneration. our cells regenerate why do they stop? well it seems to be a timer set in us. I carpool with a cancer scientist. and he has said that our cells only split somany times and that is why we die.

I say do you beleive that GOD himself has limited our days?
What about the time of Noah. somewhere it says he cut our days to be no more then 100- 120 yrs.. Did you ever wonder how he did this? we were already here and we had the perfect genes to at least make it for 500 plus years. unless you think that those accounts are false. Why it makes sense to me that the cycle of regeneration is death of the smaller protions that make us who we are. Death of the whole body is totally unneccasary. we have the chemicals to renew our cells thru what we eat.
People were resurected in the flesh.. why not just regenerate our parts? we won't be the same group of cells that we started out with but we would not be dead. With GOD's spirit are not all things possible?

Selam family,

I think Don´s conclusion is not that we will continue to die die in a sense that we cease to exist at all, but that while the physical body will always continue to wither away, God´s grace through Jesus sacrifice made it possible to "transform" the physical body into a physical one, enabling the person to attain eternal life. Likewise, a person who is resurrected to a spiritual body instantly has never really died, but had crossed from a physical into a spiritual form of life. Am I right John?

Anyway, Don has concluded that death as we know it will continue to accompany us for all eternity. Whether we are transformed into a spiritual life or not is a separate topic. Death is always there to end the life as we know it.

Well, that argument nullifies one basic scriptural statement where God is to swallow up death forever. Isaiah 25:8 Revelation 20:14, 21:4
The assertion that death "entered" the world ( Romans 5:12 ), indicates the fact that it was something foreign to man until it was allowed to enter. Death was there for a purpose, it was an instrument of punishment and we are held hostage because of it. But because Jesus paid the ransom, we are freed. We are freed from being hostages to death. Afterwards, death itself will be destroyed because it has served its purpose.

Now, will we be able to live forever because our cells renew forever? I dont think so, because for that process to take place the cycle of birth and death must continue, which negates the fact that death will be eternally destroyed.

I believe the form of life we are going to attain is something we can´t possibly comprehend at this time. It will not be governed by the "law of nature" as we are at the moment.

I think in God´s due time, we will take life for granted so much so that we will one day forget what it means to die.

Just my 2 cents,

Affection,

AR

Mzz Ann...where have you been? You are missed.

Mr Don looks at the Bible and rips to shreds what we've assumed to be true based upon what other men have assumed to be true. Needless to say, many of those men have interpreted scripture to justify themselves or some position that they've assumed. Usually, I get a kick out of Don's literalism. He won't ever be very popular, but I think people need to examine their pre-conceived notions.

I take a different tack. Like someone who's anointed, when I'm reading scripture, I ask that Jehovah's spirit be manifest with my own. I want to know what's between the lines, the spirit behind the words. Can I give evidence of that? No...but who cares? I'm not trying to score points on some academic test.

Is Don always correct? Nahh... He assumes a lot too. Like this 'death is natural' thing. LOL...it's a violation of everything I "know" to be true (not to mention biology, physiology, psychology, and genetics). I can't imagine, for instance, that Jesus would have died "naturally" had he not been killed...lessening the value of the ransom. Can I prove it scripturally? Nope. Don't matter either. I have no doubt that I will be very surprised at some point in time. I try to keep myself open to the possibilities. The Bible doesn't answer every question...nor does it claim to. The "counselor" clears up what is essential for us to understand.

Suffice it to say that for anyone to be "born again"....a death of some kind must occur. Death ain't all bad. Nothing is as "good" or as "bad" as we make it out to be...because we're all, to some extent, trying to self-justify.

gus